News AFL to overhaul the draft, discuss changes to Academy and FS bid matching

[giantroo]

 

[sr36]

yes thats exactly how the draft works. You get an early pick IF you finish near the bottom.i.e not for free. Father/sons and Quaynor you got access to for free without doing ANYTHING!

Yes. The draft is a good equalisation measure. It's a handicap system that gives an advantage to struggling teams. If a team is down the bottom for a long period of time, they accrue a lot of advantages and generally rise up the ladder. Melbourne accrued a lot of advantages due to a very poor period. They were good enough to turn these advantages into the 2021 flag. Just as Collingwood and Brisbane were able to take advantage of other aspects of draft advantage to win in 2023 and 2024.

Pretty clear that Melbourne's draft advantages were bigger than Collingwood's or Brisbanes due to the sheer number of top 5 picks, so if like you have stated, you are going to write off flags due to having gotten an advantage at the draft - 2021 is the first one you'd write off. Cats in 2022 is probably the only one that is reasonably clear of draft advantage - overall that team was assembled with a cumulative disadvantage at the draft.

But hey, you stick to your idea that the advantages you were given due to incompetence makes your flag more worthy than flags won with the aid of advantages that were gotten through the luck of father son.

 

[KissKiss]

Random question but which club would have got the least amount of extra draft assistance (F/S, Priority picks, Academy, NGA, suspiciously extra Free Agent compensation)?

Im pretty sure there are clubs that are worse off than the Demons

 

[LukeParkerno1]

Random question but which club would have got the least amount of extra draft assistance (F/S, Priority picks, Academy, NGA, suspiciously extra Free Agent compensation)?

Im pretty sure there are clubs that are worse off than the Demons

West Coast or Freo wouldn't they? WCE got a PP when they drafted Tom Swift back in the day (don't get me started such a shame his body didn't ever get a good run with it)

 

[LukeParkerno1]

Every club gets advantages whether it be NGA, FS, academy whatever. It's balancing the inequalities for fairness that's the key. They have got a good system starting next year, of course it's the year we have a few but I'm fine with it, if we miss one so be it.

 

[RonnieRaven]

It's so wild how people are suggesting the act of AFL players sitting in an airline seat for 90 mins somehow makes them this ineffective, punch-drunk footballer that is unable to run or mark a footy.

Yeah not sure about that but did melb to Perth and back last week.
Boarding time until disembark was 5hrs
The 3hr time difference stuffs you around to.
I do find it funny when Adelaide teams compare a 50min flight as the same.
Cats would have a 50min bus ride to play “home” games at the g

 

[KissKiss]

West Coast or Freo wouldn't they? WCE got a PP when they drafted Tom Swift back in the day (don't get me started such a shame his body didn't ever get a good run with it)

Freo is probably a good answer, I was going to guess Port although I feel like they have got a couple of things recently

 

[LukeParkerno1]

Freo is probably a good answer, I was going to guess Port although I feel like they have got a couple of things recently

Good call on Port, I tend to forget them, but laugh than Hinkley is still in charge (sorry Port fans I feel for you)

 

[danster168]

You have also gotten priority picks in your history (in addition to the ordinary top draft picks you get from being bad) that you can draw a straight line to the list management benefit of your 2021 year.

we had no priority picks in the 2021 team. Priority picks were almost a decade before that.

Also, I have no issues with priority picks. Nor would I have had an issue if North got them. You get them for coming last. You get Ugle-Hagan for being a top 4 list. Completely different and a rort.

 

[danster168]

Yes. The draft is a good equalisation measure. It's a handicap system that gives an advantage to struggling teams. If a team is down the bottom for a long period of time, they accrue a lot of advantages and generally rise up the ladder. Melbourne accrued a lot of advantages due to a very poor period. They were good enough to turn these advantages into the 2021 flag. Just as Collingwood and Brisbane were able to take advantage of other aspects of draft advantage to win in 2023 and 2024.

Pretty clear that Melbourne's draft advantages were bigger than Collingwood's or Brisbanes due to the sheer number of top 5 picks, so if like you have stated, you are going to write off flags due to having gotten an advantage at the draft - 2021 is the first one you'd write off. Cats in 2022 is probably the only one that is reasonably clear of draft advantage - overall that team was assembled with a cumulative disadvantage at the draft.

But hey, you stick to your idea that the advantages you were given due to incompetence makes your flag more worthy than flags won with the aid of advantages that were gotten through the luck of father son.

correct. there are advantages of finishing down the bottom of the ladder for a draft. So to get the benefit, the team must do something to get that benefit. I.e. have a bad season. For the f/s and NGA rorts clubs get them without having to finish low on the ladder and that's where the whole thing becomes totally unfair.

Getting draft advantages when you're 18th versus getting draft advantages when you're a top 4 team is totally different. And simply can't get compared. If Melbourne got given Quaynor, Nick Daicos and just after we won 2021, and not had Mac Andrew stolen by the AFL, we win 2022, 2023 and 2024 flags. So comparing getting normal draft picks that you warn by finishing low with draft picks you don't earn but get given when in the flag window is completely different.

Mentioning Melbourne who has been one of the most disadvantaged club in the history of NGA's and Father/sons either teams that have won flags purely on their NGA and F/S selections is a bit rich. Not only have Melbourne only had 1 f/s in 20 years and 0 nga's we had Mac Andrew stolen from us. Not to mention Ah-mu mysteriously not available to be picked up in the next draft despite being in our academy. Next the AFL will he doing under the table deals with Gold Coast to ensure Kalani White (Jeff White's son) nominates the Gold Coast. The afl are totally corrupt and for whatever reason have it on for the dees. Hard to think otherwise given how much they've disadvantaged us.

But yeah you continue talking about getting early draft picks as some sort of attempt to gloss over the fact that your club has a bottom 4 list with top 2 level afl gifts, all in the same era too. Its 25% of your current list If you want to get 5 early picks, by all means spend the next 5 years down the bottom of the ladder, no issues with that.

 

[Profop]

Pretty sure Melbourne’s team culture was a bigger handbrake on a four peat then perceived unfair handouts to other clubs was

 

[sr36]

correct. there are advantages of finishing down the bottom of the ladder for a draft. So to get the benefit, the team must do something to get that benefit. I.e. have a bad season. For the f/s and NGA rorts clubs get them without having to finish low on the ladder and that's where the whole thing becomes totally unfair.

Getting draft advantages when you're 18th versus getting draft advantages when you're a top 4 team is totally different. And simply can't get compared. If Melbourne got given Quaynor, Nick Daicos and just after we won 2021, and not had Mac Andrew stolen by the AFL, we win 2022, 2023 and 2024 flags. So comparing getting normal draft picks that you warn by finishing low with draft picks you don't earn but get given when in the flag window is completely different.

Mentioning Melbourne who has been one of the most disadvantaged club in the history of NGA's and Father/sons either teams that have won flags purely on their NGA and F/S selections is a bit rich. Not only have Melbourne only had 1 f/s in 20 years and 0 nga's we had Mac Andrew stolen from us. Not to mention Ah-mu mysteriously not available to be picked up in the next draft despite being in our academy. Next the AFL will he doing under the table deals with Gold Coast to ensure Kalani White (Jeff White's son) nominates the Gold Coast. The afl are totally corrupt and for whatever reason have it on for the dees. Hard to think otherwise given how much they've disadvantaged us.

But yeah you continue talking about getting early draft picks as some sort of attempt to gloss over the fact that your club has a bottom 4 list with top 2 level afl gifts, all in the same era too. Its 25% of your current list If you want to get 5 early picks, by all means spend the next 5 years down the bottom of the ladder, no issues with that.

Yes, Dees flags were more worthy as your draft advantages were gotten through being poor rather than through luck. You earnt those advantages through being poor. Seems to be your rationale.

Don't get me wrong, I think the draft system is good, but Melbourne didn't surpass a team like Port in the early 2020s through being a better run club than them. They did it through getting better players as a result of the AFL draft system. If you're going to declare various flags as gifted by the draft rules, yours was the most gifted of them all. The draft gives an intentional advantage to struggling teams - you were struggling for a long time and were eventually good enough to exploit those advantages which accumulated whilst you were down. That's footy. It's about exploiting advantages on and off field. Many clubs have advantages in one form or another and those that are struggling because they don't or are badly run, get given advantages by the AFL in terms of the draft.

A team like Port are in a position to complain about recruiting advantages. They've done most things well keeping them from falling down the ladder and thus haven't received mush in terms of poor performance draft advantages, and also haven't received much in terms of the other draft concessions which clubs like Collingwood have really benefitted from. Melbourne, North, Gold Coast aren't in a position to complain about recruiting advantages - they've been given a heap of advantages over the years. Melbourne have had an era of being really competitive off it - with one flag. North and Gold Coast's time will come. But let's not pretend that those draft advantages were somehow well earned. They weren't, they came from being bad.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

we had no priority picks in the 2021 team. Priority picks were almost a decade before that.

Also, I have no issues with priority picks. Nor would I have had an issue if North got them. You get them for coming last. You get Ugle-Hagan for being a top 4 list. Completely different and a rort.

But your list management benefitted from the flow-on effect that having the priority picks generated, such as additional picks from losing the players you got from the priority picks in the first place.

And the whole point of the priority pick is that it it an additional, artificial pick. North got pick 1 for coming last, a priority pick is an additional pick.

 

[danster168]

Yes, Dees flags were more worthy as your draft advantages were gotten through being poor rather than through luck. You earnt those advantages through being poor. Seems to be your rationale.

Don't get me wrong, I think the draft system is good, but Melbourne didn't surpass a team like Port in the early 2020s through being a better run club than them. They did it through getting better players as a result of the AFL draft system. If you're going to declare various flags as gifted by the draft rules, yours was the most gifted of them all. The draft gives an intentional advantage to struggling teams - you were struggling for a long time and were eventually good enough to exploit those advantages which accumulated whilst you were down. That's footy. It's about exploiting advantages on and off field. Many clubs have advantages in one form or another and those that are struggling because they don't or are badly run, get given advantages by the AFL in terms of the draft.

A team like Port are in a position to complain about recruiting advantages. They've done most things well keeping them from falling down the ladder and thus haven't received mush in terms of poor performance draft advantages, and also haven't received much in terms of the other draft concessions which clubs like Collingwood have really benefitted from. Melbourne, North, Gold Coast aren't in a position to complain about recruiting advantages - they've been given a heap of advantages over the years. Melbourne have had an era of being really competitive off it - with one flag. North and Gold Coast's time will come. But let's not pretend that those draft advantages were somehow well earned. They weren't, they came from being bad.

Actually, yes. that is my rationale. You have to suffer a lot of anguish to get a high pick. That's more of my point. It's sort of the opposite to getting them for free.

Yes, I agree. The dees surpassed most teams during recent years due to the draft. Mostly Oliver and Petracca and to a lesser extent Brayshaw.

So now let's discuss how you determine the word 'gift'. When I say 'gift' I mean that a team gets access to top end picks despite not suffering near the bottom of the ladder like a normal draft would have to. It's completely bypassing the 'you've got to be poor to get access to the top end talent' notion. Which is the basic premise of what a draft system is set up and designed to do.

So yes, the dees built their success through the draft, but certainly not through gifts like Collingwood, Brisbane and the Dogs. Let's say Richmond win a flag in 5 years. Will you be saying that they won due to gifts? I won't. They built their list through the draft which in my opinion is the most viable strategy.

 

[danster168]

But your list management benefitted from the flow-on effect that having the priority picks generated, such as additional picks from losing the players you got from the priority picks in the first place.

And the whole point of the priority pick is that it it an additional, artificial pick. North got pick 1 for coming last, a priority pick is an additional pick.

We got nothing for Sylvia, nothing for Sam Blease and for Tom Scully we got Jimmy Toumpas and Salem. So literally there were no flow on picks etc. unless your spiel is all over Salem...

 

[threenewpadlocks]

We got nothing for Sylvia, nothing for Sam Blease and for Tom Scully we got Jimmy Toumpas and Salem. So literally there were no flow on picks etc. unless your spiel is all over Salem...

Yes, but it's all part of an entire list management ecosystem that you make decisions and gain benefits from already having players on the list. You can't isolate out the impact of your priority picks, just like you can't isolate out the impacts of a F/S alone.

 

[sr36]

Actually, yes. that is my rationale. You have to suffer a lot of anguish to get a high pick. That's more of my point. It's sort of the opposite to getting them for free.

Yes, I agree. The dees surpassed most teams during recent years due to the draft. Mostly Oliver and Petracca and to a lesser extent Brayshaw.

So now let's discuss how you determine the word 'gift'. When I say 'gift' I mean that a team gets access to top end picks despite not suffering near the bottom of the ladder like a normal draft would have to. It's completely bypassing the 'you've got to be poor to get access to the top end talent' notion. Which is the basic premise of what a draft system is set up and designed to do.

So yes, the dees built their success through the draft, but certainly not through gifts like Collingwood, Brisbane and the Dogs. Let's say Richmond win a flag in 5 years. Will you be saying that they won due to gifts? I won't. They built their list through the draft which in my opinion is the most viable strategy.

Yes. You've decided that the equalisation measure of advantages in the draft is somehow not a gift. Yet the father son rule is a gift when it falls on a club by chance. You see to actually think these advantages are earnt.

The reality of the situation is that Melbourne have received far more advantages from drafting rules than the vast majority of clubs. The idea that the advantage that comes from poor performance is more meritworthy is a strange idea, despite it being beneficial for the health of the comp. I'm all for the draft - but lets not pretend that the advantages that come from performing poorly are earnt advantages - they're quite clearly the opposite.

Melbourne, Collingwood and Brisbane all won flags partially by exploiting recruiting advantages they were given. It's just a reality. If you want to believe yours was more meritworthy because you got your advantages for being bad - good luck to you - I'm hoping any future draft advantages we get are through luck, rather than the way you got them. Geelong won a flag partially on the back of successfully turning their location into a recruiting advantage and exploiting the **** out of it.

 

[danster168]

Yes. You've decided that the equalisation measure of advantages in the draft is somehow not a gift. Yet the father son rule is a gift when it falls on a club by chance. You see to actually think these advantages are earnt.

The reality of the situation is that Melbourne have received far more advantages from drafting rules than the vast majority of clubs. The idea that the advantage that comes from poor performance is more meritworthy is a strange idea, despite it being beneficial for the health of the comp. I'm all for the draft - but lets not pretend that the advantages that come from performing poorly are earnt advantages - they're quite clearly the opposite.

Melbourne, Collingwood and Brisbane all won flags by exploiting recruiting advantages they were given. It's just a reality. If you want to believe yours was more meritworthy because you got your advantages for being bad - good luck to you - I'm hoping any future draft advantages we get are through luck, rather than the way you got them. Geelong won a flag on the back of successfully turning their location into a recruiting advantage and exploiting the **** out of it.

You didn't answer any of my questions or address any of my points.

Yes, if you finish at the bottom of the ladder, you deserve a top pick. That's what a draft is. Getting top end talent despite being a good team is a joke.

There's no asterisk on our flag. We did it with 1 father-son in 20 years (well below afl average) and no nga picks. And did it all without any home games despite finishing on top of the ladder and still won by record margins. You guys won with 25% of your list from afl handouts and won with some dodgy umpiring right until the last 10s with a 'advantage' call with a guy kicking it over his head blind inside 50.

So go back to my post and answer my question about Richmond.

 

[sr36]

You didn't answer any of my questions or address any of my points.

Yes, if you finish at the bottom of the ladder, you deserve a top pick. That's what a draft is. Getting top end talent despite being a good team is a joke.

There's no asterisk on our flag. We did it with 1 father-son in 20 years (well below afl average) and no nga picks. And did it all without any home games despite finishing on top of the ladder and still won by record margins. You guys won with 25% of your list from afl handouts and won with some dodgy umpiring right until the last 10s with a 'advantage' call with a guy kicking it over his head blind inside 50.

So go back to my post and answer my question about Richmond.

I addressed your main point - which advantages are meritworthy. None of them are. Reward for being uncompetitive. Luck of father son. A system to incentivise growth of Northern footy. They are what they are. I think they're all good in their own way, but they aren't earnt or meritworthy.

I won't be saying any team won their flag due to gifts. I'll leave that sort of thing for you. I'm just pointing out that Brisbane and Collingwood's flags were less the product of draft advantages than Melbourne's was. You're the one who brought the deservingness of flags into it based on assistance from the draft. Melbourne has received more advantages from the draft than most other clubs - whether that assistance is used for picks or trade doesn't really matter to me. I'm actually just pointing out the silliness of your thinking in terms of flags being gifts from draft advantage, because that line of thought makes the Dees flag a gift.

In terms of Richmond, pick 1 this year is an advantage given directly by the AFL system - whatever pick they get next year will be too. The other picks are the result of strategy and trading with a bit of luck thrown in, which may or may not prove to be a successful/lucky strategy - I think they did really well though in terms of trading - we'll see in the future how good their drafting was. If they win flags in the future, good luck to them, but every team that bottoms right out and then rises undoubtedly receives advantages from the draft system. That's the system - you can try to be righteous about your advantages being earnt, but they weren't - the opposite. It was reward for being unable to compete.

 

[Elixuh]

Pretty sure Melbourne’s team culture was a bigger handbrake on a four peat then perceived unfair handouts to other clubs was

Their culture was the best Gary pert had seen in his time in football tho

 

[danster168]

Their culture was the best Gary pert had seen in his time in football tho

pretty easy to have good culture when the AFL spoon feeds you 2 top 1 picks plus Fletcher and more. I mean, we all know this. Not saying anything new. I'm surprised there's any lions, dogs or pies fans here to be honest.

 

[Profop]

pretty easy to have good culture when the AFL spoon feeds you 2 top 1 picks plus Fletcher and more. I mean, we all know this. Not saying anything new. I'm surprised there's any lions, dogs or pies fans here to be honest.

Sorry why is it easy to have a good culture with high picks? Or are you saying good teams have a good culture?

Melbourne has a stack of high picks and won a flag all whilst having the worst culture in the league

 

[danster168]

Sorry why is it easy to have a good culture with high picks? Or are you saying good teams have a good culture?

Melbourne has a stack of high picks and won a flag all whilst having the worst culture in the league

bringing in good kids, with energy and spark, bringing hope to fans, etc. Just look what's happened with hawks with Watson, Weddle, Dear etc.

I think the culture thing is all a massive overstatement. Hawks had Ginnivan doing things in restrooms, Bailey Smith has had all of his off field issues, Tyson Stengle found unresponsive outside a nightclub and rushed to hospital, De Goey bashing strangers in Vegas, Sydney Stack being Sydney Stack. People just love to lay in but the reality is, we're probably average in the culture stakes. The Petracca thing said more about his narcissism than anything wrong with the club. Recent review done by an outsider revealed that the culture was totally overstated.

 

[sr36]

Random question but which club would have got the least amount of extra draft assistance (F/S, Priority picks, Academy, NGA, suspiciously extra Free Agent compensation)?

Im pretty sure there are clubs that are worse off than the Demons

They've had a lot of luck historically with father son, but If looking at current teams, Cats would be comfortably the least assisted by the draft and the rules around it. Only one top 10 pick given through ladder order and I can't think of a father son or academy player.

 

[jdstorm]

They've had a lot of luck historically with father son, but If looking at current teams, Cats would be comfortably the least assisted by the draft and the rules around it. Only one top 10 pick given through ladder order and I can't think of a father son or academy player.

There’s lots of different ways to take advantage of FSs

Having guys locked in for 300+ games that you got for nothing while being elite at their positions allows you to invest in other positions . These guys also guaranteed success which attracted free agents ….

Every free agent aquired feeds into itself while costing no picks

 

[jdstorm]

They've had a lot of luck historically with father son, but If looking at current teams, Cats would be comfortably the least assisted by the draft and the rules around it. Only one top 10 pick given through ladder order and I can't think of a father son or academy player.

Theres lots of ways to benefit from FS picks. Getting Hawkins plus scarlet and Ablet Jr really set up their whole club for success.

To their credit they’ve maintained that advantage longer then most would but that’s the initial start