Recruiting AFL Trade & Free Agency XI - McKay. Goldstein. Gresham. Duursma!

[Lore]

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Trade wrap: Essendon player movement period

See all the movements from the 2023 trade period.

www.essendonfc.com.au

 

[Nifft]

Dude, you’re the one that put a “disagree” react on ghostdog’s post when you actually disagreed with the guy he quoted.

Can y’all get a room if you wanna go round and round in circles please.

 

[doug85]

I disagree. i think our top end is lacking significantly. Compared to Carlton, we have better depth and better fringe players, but their top end obliterates ours on every part of the ground.

We don't have a top end defender (unless Ridley can finally turn into an elite intercept defender and maybe McKay completely surprises us?).
We don't have a top end ruckman (I'm hopeful Draper and Bryan can become that)
We don't have a top end mid (except for Merrett, but he's not the type of influential mids like Petracca, Pendlebury, Dusty and Dangerfield the good teams have)
We don't have a top end key forward
We don't have a top end small forward

As it currently stands, our team is lacking the superstars that make a premiership list, which is why I advocate for trading up or trading for top-end players.

I reckon this has been the case for about 15 years.

 

[Skipper_]

I reckon this has been the case for about 15 years.

We had a pretty reasonable core 10 years ago of Hooker, Hurley, Watson, Ryder and Goddard with Daniher coming through as well.

 

[doug85]

We had a pretty reasonable core 10 years ago of Hooker, Hurley, Watson, Ryder and Goddard with Daniher coming through as well.

They weren’t at their peak at the same time.

 

[Chief Hopper]

I disagree. i think our top end is lacking significantly. Compared to Carlton, we have better depth and better fringe players, but their top end obliterates ours on every part of the ground.

We don't have a top end defender (unless Ridley can finally turn into an elite intercept defender and maybe McKay completely surprises us?).
We don't have a top end ruckman (I'm hopeful Draper and Bryan can become that)
We don't have a top end mid (except for Merrett, but he's not the type of influential mids like Petracca, Pendlebury, Dusty and Dangerfield the good teams have)
We don't have a top end key forward
We don't have a top end small forward

As it currently stands, our team is lacking the superstars that make a premiership list, which is why I advocate for trading up or trading for top-end players.

I get what you mean, but if there's any team thats had more top 10 players in its list and under performed for 2 decades, it's Carlton.

Also, top teams have many players that perform their role good enough, but if you placed them in another team they'd likely look mediocre.

Also if we look at Peter Wright, Stringer, Setterfield, Ridley. These players have shown themselves to play exceedingly well at times, but they dropped off when the rest of the team dived, got injury or played out of position. Maybe if we'd become more consistent we'd see them closer to being the best around.

 

[Yoda_]

I disagree. i think our top end is lacking significantly. Compared to Carlton, we have better depth and better fringe players, but their top end obliterates ours on every part of the ground.

We don't have a top end defender (unless Ridley can finally turn into an elite intercept defender and maybe McKay completely surprises us?).
We don't have a top end ruckman (I'm hopeful Draper and Bryan can become that)
We don't have a top end mid (except for Merrett, but he's not the type of influential mids like Petracca, Pendlebury, Dusty and Dangerfield the good teams have)
We don't have a top end key forward
We don't have a top end small forward

As it currently stands, our team is lacking the superstars that make a premiership list, which is why I advocate for trading up or trading for top-end players.

Our top end (Parish, Merrett, Ridley, possibly Redman and Langford) are as good as a y, we just need more of them to reach a grade ratings rather than currently sitting as b graders

 

[Nuggs Bunny]

I disagree. i think our top end is lacking significantly. Compared to Carlton, we have better depth and better fringe players, but their top end obliterates ours on every part of the ground.

We don't have a top end defender (unless Ridley can finally turn into an elite intercept defender and maybe McKay completely surprises us?).
We don't have a top end ruckman (I'm hopeful Draper and Bryan can become that)
We don't have a top end mid (except for Merrett, but he's not the type of influential mids like Petracca, Pendlebury, Dusty and Dangerfield the good teams have)
We don't have a top end key forward
We don't have a top end small forward

As it currently stands, our team is lacking the superstars that make a premiership list, which is why I advocate for trading up or trading for top-end players.

Yeah but there's debate over whether you need superstars on every line or just having a solid group of players that can do their role. For example, I think our defence is now solid with McKay because we have not had anybody who was clear best 22 able to play the way he will be able to play since Hooker retired. The closest we've had since is James Stewart when fit. So irrespective of whether he's going to play at AA standard, he's a sound upgrade over players that do not have the physicality to play on the bigger forwards. Watching BZT and Laverde get rag dolled by players who have 15kg and 10cm of reach on them won't happen anymore.

For mine the biggest difference between our team and Collingwood is the strength of our system, the consistency of the playing group and our match fitness over four quarters. Out of all the categories, the only player they have that's indisputably in the top handful of their position is Moore. Guys like Naicos, Hill, De Goey etc. are all very good but they're not (at least not yet) at the top end.

 

[JayJ20]

I get what you mean, but if there's any team thats had more top 10 players in its list and under performed for 2 decades, it's Carlton.

Also, top teams have many players that perform their role good enough, but if you placed them in another team they'd likely look mediocre.

Also if we look at Peter Wright, Stringer, Setterfield, Ridley. These players have shown themselves to play exceedingly well at times, but they dropped off when the rest of the team dived, got injury or played out of position. Maybe if we'd become more consistent we'd see them closer to being the best around.

The bolded here is because top end talent lifts the whole side. It's much more sustainable to have 5 stars being able to win you games than to always need 16-22 players to play their role. The rest of the role players only contribute to the margin of their wins. Relying on your bottom end is dangerous because they are bottom end for a reason.

If you can win a game because 3 players had good games and these players are reliable, then you'll be consistent. Collingwood barely have a forwardline, and yet they win because Moore, Elliot, Daicos, Sidebottom and Pendlebury had good games. It doesn't matter what fringe players they bring into their side or how many injuries they have. If those players are playing well (which happens very often), they win. Melbourne are the same with Petracca, May, Gawn and Oliver. Brisbane with Cameron, Andrews, McCluggage, Neale and Daniher. Carlton with Cripps, Walsh, McKay, Curnow and Weitering. It was only a matter of time before Carlton made a prelim because it is much easier to fix the bottom half of the 22 than the top half. I don't have that same certainty with our list.

Our top end (Parish, Merrett, Ridley, possibly Redman and Langford) are as good as a y, we just need more of them to reach a grade ratings rather than currently sitting as b graders

Our better players like Parish, Stringer, Wright, Draper and Shiel (over the last couple of years) are unreliable through injury or form. Merrett and perhaps 2023 Langford as a forward are the only consistent "stars". But even that, I cannot guarantee a win to Essendon with Merrett, Langford, Parish and Ridley (based on current career) playing well because Merrett and Langford are probably the only ones that are damaging enough to take the game away from the opposition. And the only thing a decent team needs to do is tag Merrett or force Ridley into an accountable role and the game is won.

When you have players like Petracca, Oliver, Dusty and Curnow on your side that can take control of the whole game on their own, then you'll be a better side because the whole team takes control. These players are worth 3-4 players on their own, which means the rest have to do less to be impressive. Which of our players are consistently capable of that? Langford and Merrett.

We don't have many players that can lift the whole team on their back. It's why I wish Essendon would be more bold and trade players out for Reid who has that quality about him.

We need the stars to build role players around and we don't have enough of it. I have the highest hope for Draper and Martin to become that type of influential player on a consistent basis as they have that quality about them.

 

[JayJ20]

Yeah but there's debate over whether you need superstars on every line or just having a solid group of players that can do their role. For example, I think our defence is now solid with McKay because we have not had anybody who was clear best 22 able to play the way he will be able to play since Hooker retired. The closest we've had since is James Stewart when fit. So irrespective of whether he's going to play at AA standard, he's a sound upgrade over players that do not have the physicality to play on the bigger forwards. Watching BZT and Laverde get rag dolled by players who have 15kg and 10cm of reach on them won't happen anymore.

For mine the biggest difference between our team and Collingwood is the strength of our system, the consistency of the playing group and our match fitness over four quarters. Out of all the categories, the only player they have that's indisputably in the top handful of their position is Moore. Guys like Naicos, Hill, De Goey etc. are all very good but they're not (at least not yet) at the top end.

Naicos is not top end? He absolutely is. He is without a doubt one of the most influential players in the game. There's a reason Collingwood drastically turned around with Naicos' arrival. Year one was probably the best debut year I've ever seen from anyone. Year two he would have won a brownlow if not for his injury.

I don't think you need to have a top end player on every line because Collingwood won a premiership with an average forwardline, but you need a spread of stars. Bulldogs have long struggled because all of their top end talent were accumulated in their midfield. That'll change soon with players like Darcy and JUH.

I'd say you need at least two lines and one needs to be the midfield. You can cover the other line by implementing a sound defensive system or attacking system across the ground like Collingwood have.

 

[MarkJohnson#1]

I disagree. i think our top end is lacking significantly. Compared to Carlton, we have better depth and better fringe players, but their top end obliterates ours on every part of the ground.

We don't have a top end defender (unless Ridley can finally turn into an elite intercept defender and maybe McKay completely surprises us?).
We don't have a top end ruckman (I'm hopeful Draper and Bryan can become that)
We don't have a top end mid (except for Merrett, but he's not the type of influential mids like Petracca, Pendlebury, Dusty and Dangerfield the good teams have)
We don't have a top end key forward
We don't have a top end small forward

As it currently stands, our team is lacking the superstars that make a premiership list, which is why I advocate for trading up or trading for top-end players.

I agree for the most part. The problem is a lot of those guns you mentioned, there’s just not that many of them and it’s a bit of luck really when it all comes down to it.

FYI Goldstein is a top 5 ruck in the comp though

 

[Nuggs Bunny]

Naicos is not top end? He absolutely is. He is without a doubt one of the most influential players in the game. There's a reason Collingwood drastically turned around with Naicos' arrival. Year one was probably the best debut year I've ever seen from anyone. Year two he would have won a brownlow if not for his injury.

I don't think you need to have a top end player on every line because Collingwood won a premiership with an average forwardline, but you need a spread of stars. Bulldogs have long struggled because all of their top end talent were accumulated in their midfield. That'll change soon with players like Darcy and JUH.

I'd say you need at least two lines and one needs to be the midfield. You can cover the other line by implementing a sound defensive system or attacking system across the ground like Collingwood have.

Would you have Naicos in the top 10 midfielders in the competition? I wouldn't, potentially in a few years but right now I wouldn't. Moore on the other hand is definitely in the top 5 for his position. He's been a rookie sensation but it's a bit much to credit Collingwood's turnaround to just him when the core of the 2018 and 2019 teams are still there and the fact that Collingwood seem to make it to a prelim every four or five years.

Agreed we need a match winner in the midfield, but the real thing that's holding us back is that our fitness has never been at the level of the rest of the competition and we do not have anything near the sort of understanding of our system that clubs like Collingwood and Geelong have had. It will take time to build it with the group. The Bulldogs are a great example; they're easily one of the most talented lists on paper but they're also lacking at system football.

 

[Yoda_]

Our better players like Parish, Stringer, Wright, Draper and Shiel (over the last couple of years) are unreliable through injury or form. Merrett and perhaps 2023 Langford as a forward are the only consistent "stars". But even that, I cannot guarantee a win to Essendon with Merrett, Langford, Parish and Ridley (based on current career) playing well because Merrett and Langford are probably the only ones that are damaging enough to take the game away from the opposition. And the only thing a decent team needs to do is tag Merrett or force Ridley into an accountable role and the game is won.

When you have players like Petracca, Oliver, Dusty and Curnow on your side that can take control of the whole game on their own, then you'll be a better side because the whole team takes control. These players are worth 3-4 players on their own, which means the rest have to do less to be impressive. Which of our players are consistently capable of that? Langford and Merrett.

We don't have many players that can lift the whole team on their back. It's why I wish Essendon would be more bold and trade players out for Reid who has that quality about him.

We need the stars to build role players around and we don't have enough of it. I have the highest hope for Draper and Martin to become that type of influential player on a consistent basis as they have that quality about them.

I feel like your validating my points, every team has top end talent. We are no exception. We need more b grade players to improve to a graders to be considered a team to worry about. This is why St.Kilda are never going to improve. Too many b / c graders. North in those Scott years were the same albeit slightly better than most Sainters teams. Carlton were like this until the next tier guys stepped up. They are probably a little bit wierder with there list make up but that's for another thread.

 

[jannissary]

I get what you mean, but if there's any team thats had more top 10 players in its list and under performed for 2 decades, it's Carlton.

Also, top teams have many players that perform their role good enough, but if you placed them in another team they'd likely look mediocre.

Also if we look at Peter Wright, Stringer, Setterfield, Ridley. These players have shown themselves to play exceedingly well at times, but they dropped off when the rest of the team dived, got injury or played out of position. Maybe if we'd become more consistent we'd see them closer to being the best around.

I think this is a pretty accurate sentiment, however i vehemently disagree with ridley being on there. before he went down i'd argue that he was generally one of our most consistent performers, and an average game for him would be considered above standard for a lot of defenders.

 

[andleanback]

I reckon Essington would be persisting with the player who has shown nothing when an opportunity for a player like Thilthorpe is there. That's choosing hope rather than choosing knowledge.

Peak Essington - we keep him because we need to prove we drafted the right guy.

Nopers. Gimme Thilthorpe.

Thilthorpe isn’t a pure kpf. I reckon he’ll end up being mostly full time ruck 25% forward

 

[andleanback]

Worth noting 20 players out of contract and how it may effect our list management decisions;

MUST RE - SIGN

Jye Caldwell
Nik Cox
Alwyn Davey Junior
Sam Durham
Lewis Hayes
Nic Martin
Andrew McGrath
Archie Perkins
Elijah Tsatas

WOULD LIKE TO RE - SIGN

Kaine Baldwin
Jayden Davey
Harrison Jones

NON PLUSSED

Jake Stringer
Dylan Shiel (?)

ON CHOPPING BLOCK

Todd Goldstein
Dyson Heppell
Nick Hind
Jake Kelly
Matt Guelfi

Rookie list may also have a clean out as well. Tex, Voss third years and Hunter will have his second year.

Didn’t caldwell sign a 5 year deal?

 

[andleanback]

They weren’t at their peak at the same time.

They all were except for daniher

The drugs saga doesn’t happen we at least make a prelim 2013-2016 imo

 

[Hird05]

The bolded here is because top end talent lifts the whole side. It's much more sustainable to have 5 stars being able to win you games than to always need 16-22 players to play their role. The rest of the role players only contribute to the margin of their wins. Relying on your bottom end is dangerous because they are bottom end for a reason.

If you can win a game because 3 players had good games and these players are reliable, then you'll be consistent. Collingwood barely have a forwardline, and yet they win because Moore, Elliot, Daicos, Sidebottom and Pendlebury had good games. It doesn't matter what fringe players they bring into their side or how many injuries they have. If those players are playing well (which happens very often), they win. Melbourne are the same with Petracca, May, Gawn and Oliver. Brisbane with Cameron, Andrews, McCluggage, Neale and Daniher. Carlton with Cripps, Walsh, McKay, Curnow and Weitering. It was only a matter of time before Carlton made a prelim because it is much easier to fix the bottom half of the 22 than the top half. I don't have that same certainty with our list.


Our better players like Parish, Stringer, Wright, Draper and Shiel (over the last couple of years) are unreliable through injury or form. Merrett and perhaps 2023 Langford as a forward are the only consistent "stars". But even that, I cannot guarantee a win to Essendon with Merrett, Langford, Parish and Ridley (based on current career) playing well because Merrett and Langford are probably the only ones that are damaging enough to take the game away from the opposition. And the only thing a decent team needs to do is tag Merrett or force Ridley into an accountable role and the game is won.

When you have players like Petracca, Oliver, Dusty and Curnow on your side that can take control of the whole game on their own, then you'll be a better side because the whole team takes control. These players are worth 3-4 players on their own, which means the rest have to do less to be impressive. Which of our players are consistently capable of that? Langford and Merrett.

We don't have many players that can lift the whole team on their back. It's why I wish Essendon would be more bold and trade players out for Reid who has that quality about him.

We need the stars to build role players around and we don't have enough of it. I have the highest hope for Draper and Martin to become that type of influential player on a consistent basis as they have that quality about them.

Seem to be on the outer but I think Parish is pretty close to as good and impactful at Merritt. He did come 5th in the brownlow a couple of years ago.

 

[Chief Hopper]

I think this is a pretty accurate sentiment, however i vehemently disagree with ridley being on there. before he went down i'd argue that he was generally one of our most consistent performers, and an average game for him would be considered above standard for a lot of defenders.

Yeah I get that.
I picked Ridley in there as this past year I think he's dropped back a little bit from a couple years ago. I haven't seen his intercepts. It points to our team defence being overwhelmed and I think he's been carrying an injury? So it's not Ridley per se but where the team is at.
I really think McKay is going to make our team defence a whole lot better and, in turn will see Ridley more space and time to be a better player.

 

[jannissary]

Yeah I get that.
I picked Ridley in there as this past year I think he's dropped back a little bit from a couple years ago. I haven't seen his intercepts. It points to our team defence being overwhelmed and I think he's been carrying an injury? So it's not Ridley per se but where the team is at.
I really think McKay is going to make our team defence a whole lot better and, in turn will see Ridley more space and time to be a better player.

he'd hyper extended his quad earlier in the season then reinjured it iirc, i'm interested in how he plays when he's got someone like mckay covering his man, it's an exciting thought

 

[Milanista28]

I think we've built our base reasonably well, now it's time for Icing.

Lions built a nice base, then bought Cameron, Neale, Joe and Dunkley.

That needs to be us over the next 24-36 months.

 

[Mootsy]

Overall some good quality picks this year, but still hoping we can get a big fish midfielder in the FA period. We really need a good rebuild of our senior list, I feel. Get some gut runners, mids, and high quality players with a clean out of our senior list cloggers and one trick poney’s.(great people, ok players, but it’s not getting us to finals anytime soon, keeping them in the best 22).

 

[Mootsy]

I think we've built our base reasonably well, now it's time for Icing.

Lions built a nice base, then bought Cameron, Neale, Joe and Dunkley.

That needs to be us over the next 24-36 months.

That’s our problem right now, we don’t have a Cameron, Dunkley, Dusty, Hill types, or players that are really dynamic across the ground. The Pies and Lions have a brilliant list compared to us. Maybe I’m under hyping us a bit, but we have too many one dimensional similar, small mids and not enough good quality, dynamic natural footballers. I just don’t see the synthesis in our list. We also look weak physically on game day, and the worst aspect of our game is the deplorable marking skills. So a lot to work on. I can see some incremental improvements, but nothing drastic, we’d still be lucky to make finals for quite a while.

Although we had a lot of injuries this season.

 

[Godzke]

Given the age demograohic of our list, how important is it to retain pick 9? Better off trading it for a future first? Give us more draft capital work to land a KPF next offseason?

 

[eth-dog]

Given the age demograohic of our list, how important is it to retain pick 9? Better off trading it for a future first? Give us more draft capital work to land a KPF next offseason?

I'd be keen on trading it back for a teens pick and a F1 honestly

 

[Keystone agony]

You disagreed. I asked what you were disagreeing with.

Forget about it.

We both disagreed and asked what eachither was disagreeing with

I answered, you didnt