Annual Reports: Every Club's Profit/Loss Margin for 2012

[The_Wookie]

Here is the reality that you conveniently overlook....

VFL had 2 options. Merge / kill off sides. Or expand nationally.
You can thank the eagles for your side not dying off like Fitzroy.

Watch this FoxFooty doco and learn something instead of spewing crap that you obviously know nothing about.

The WAFL went broke in 1983 and needed a bailout by the WA State Government. In 1984, the VFL wasnt broke, but 6 of its clubs technically were (Geelong, St Kilda, Fitzroy, Footscray, Collingwood and Sydney). By 1989, 7/10 SANFL clubs were loss making propisitions. The same year, VFL income was $30 million - the WAFL and SANFL combined made $12 million.

The mid 80s werent a fun time for many clubs, and the WAFL. But lets not pretend that the Eagles saved the league. Brisbane ponied up the 4 million up front as well at the same time, and both license fees definitely bailed out the broke clubs.

 

[MightyTiger]

The WAFL went broke in 1983 and needed a bailout by the WA State Government. In 1984, the VFL wasnt broke, but 6 of its clubs technically were (Geelong, St Kilda, Fitzroy, Footscray, Collingwood and Sydney). By 1989, 7/10 SANFL clubs were loss making propisitions. The same year, VFL income was $30 million - the WAFL and SANFL combined made $12 million.

The mid 80s werent a fun time for many clubs, and the WAFL. But lets not pretend that the Eagles saved the league. Brisbane ponied up the 4 million up front as well at the same time, and both license fees definitely bailed out the broke clubs.

Game, set and match.

 

[telsor]

The WAFL went broke in 1983 and needed a bailout by the WA State Government. In 1984, the VFL wasnt broke, but 6 of its clubs technically were (Geelong, St Kilda, Fitzroy, Footscray, Collingwood and Sydney). By 1989, 7/10 SANFL clubs were loss making propisitions. The same year, VFL income was $30 million - the WAFL and SANFL combined made $12 million.

The mid 80s werent a fun time for many clubs, and the WAFL. But lets not pretend that the Eagles saved the league. Brisbane ponied up the 4 million up front as well at the same time, and both license fees definitely bailed out the broke clubs.

And don't forget that one of the major income streams for WA/SA was the money VFL team were paying them for their players....and that one of the options floated to help the VFL clubs was to stop paying for clearances.

 

[The_Wookie]

And don't forget that one of the major income streams for WA/SA was the money VFL team were paying them for their players....and that one of the options floated to help the VFL clubs was to stop paying for clearances.

In 1988, the VFL changed the player rules following the foschini case, where zoning and the then current clearance system were found to be illegal. With the draft came a cap on transfer fees (no more than $27,000) where before clubs were paying up to $200,000 for players to transfer, and the transfer fees were reduced to practically none at all for recruits from outside Victoria. Transfers and clearances were replaced almost wholesale by the draft. The loss of transfer fees sent several SA clubs close to the wall when they could no longer count on fat transfer fees to mask other fiscal shortcomings.

ref: Abolishing transfer fees: the VFLs new employment rules (Dabscheck, 1989)

 

[Kwality]

In 1988, the VFL changed the player rules following the foschini case, where zoning and the then current clearance system were found to be illegal. With the draft came a cap on transfer fees (no more than $27,000) where before clubs were paying up to $200,000 for players to transfer, and the transfer fees were reduced to practically none at all for recruits from outside Victoria. Transfers and clearances were replaced almost wholesale by the draft. The loss of transfer fees sent several SA clubs close to the wall when they could no longer count on fat transfer fees to mask other fiscal shortcomings.

ref: Abolishing transfer fees: the VFLs new employment rules (Dabscheck, 1989)

Not just a SA problem, fiscal shortcomings were the norm in Aussie Rules clubs across the country - werent the Saints the first to short change their players, what year was that.
Dont kid yourself that it was just one state.

 

[The_Wookie]

Not just a SA problem, fiscal shortcomings were the norm in Aussie Rules clubs across the country - werent the Saints the first to short change their players, what year was that.
Dont kid yourself that it was just one state.

I believe I wrote about that in the post before that. Selective reading again?

The WAFL went broke in 1983 and needed a bailout by the WA State Government. In 1984, the VFL wasnt broke, but 6 of its clubs technically were (Geelong, St Kilda, Fitzroy, Footscray, Collingwood and Sydney). By 1989, 7/10 SANFL clubs were loss making propisitions. The same year, VFL income was $30 million - the WAFL and SANFL combined made $12 million.

The mid 80s werent a fun time for many clubs, and the WAFL. But lets not pretend that the Eagles saved the league. Brisbane ponied up the 4 million up front as well at the same time, and both license fees definitely bailed out the broke clubs.

 

[Hard_to_Beat]

ref: Abolishing transfer fees: the VFLs new employment rules (Dabscheck, 1989)

Interesting to note that the rate of Melbournians attending per head of population in 1980 is very similar to the rate of Melbournians attending per head of population in 2011.

The game is as strong inside the microcosm of Melbourne as it has always been.

Demetriou is 100% correct when he states that Melbourne is the engine room of the AFL.

 

[SunshineBoy]

So, to sum it up: Collingwood spent $20m on the football department, but couldn't win the flag.

I'm sure you're happy with your balance sheet though.

North wish they had 20 million..........

 

[Kwality]

I believe I wrote about that in the post before that. Selective reading again?

Precious?

I was clarifying the position for those with little to no knowledge of the financial shortcomings of the time.

I well remember Subi in those days under Chairman Kevin Merifield drafting his business partner of the time Kerry Stokes (of Channel 7 ownership) & financial guru Michael Carlyle to keep the ship afloat.

 

[Hard_to_Beat]

Precious?

I was clarifying the position for those with little to no knowledge of the financial shortcomings of the time.

I well remember Subi in those days under Chairman Kevin Merifield drafting his business partner of the time Kerry Stokes (of Channel 7 ownership) & financial guru Michael Carlyle to keep the ship afloat.

You would be best served directing this stuff at some of your fellow myopic Western Australians.

There are people over there that truly believe that WA clubs saved/save the competition.

The truth is that the AFL could comfortably function without the WA clubs. The rate of growth would be slower, but it would still occur.

 

[THRILLHO]

North wish they had 20 million..........

No doubt.

But unless you go to Punt Road to watch your bean-counters do the business instead of wherever Richmond are playing that weekend, I dare say you place more emphasis on winning games of football rather than who has the bigger bank balance.

If not, I apologise, and yes, my club is poorer than yours. What an ignoble and wounding insult you have delivered to me. I measure my self-worth by the wealthiness of the club I support and now you have shot that to pieces.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

No doubt.

But unless you go to Punt Road to watch your bean-counters do the business instead of wherever Richmond are playing that weekend, I dare say you place more emphasis on winning games of football rather than who has the bigger bank balance.

If not, I apologise, and yes, my club is poorer than yours. What an ignoble and wounding insult you have delivered to me. I measure my self-worth by the wealthiness of the club I support and now you have shot that to pieces.

What you are ignoring here is the lesson both of our clubs have learned the hard way. Competitiveness onfield is irrelevant in modern footy if you don't have a viable and strong off field. Kangas and Richmond both nearly disappeared due to poor finances, and this was not long after both were very dominant teams onfield. Also the trend these days more and more is the teams consistently in the top 8 are generally the teams who are able to spend more off field due to their stronger financial position (Saints and Dogs being the only ones to buck this recently).

Like it or not, the importance of a strong financial position for your club is only going to increase in the AFL, as the gap between the haves and the have nots grows. As one of the have not clubs, I'm glad things are changing for us, but am not kidding myself that we still have a long way to go.

 

[W.C. Fry]

You would be best served directing this stuff at some of your fellow myopic Western Australians.

There are people over there that truly believe that WA clubs saved/save the competition.

The truth is that the AFL could comfortably function without the WA clubs. The rate of growth would be slower, but it would still occur.

More crap. Their wouldn't have even been an AFL without WA clubs. Growth? Thats a laugh.

The Wookie said it above and you actually liked the post. Without both the Eagles and Brisbanes licence fees clubs would have died. Brisbane itself was not enough and would end up being a money sink just like Sydney. SANFL would not come to the party.

I didn't say we saved the league or anything. But we definately kept a few clubs alive.

 

[Geoffa32]

The WAFL went broke in 1983 and needed a bailout by the WA State Government. In 1984, the VFL wasnt broke, but 6 of its clubs technically were (Geelong, St Kilda, Fitzroy, Footscray, Collingwood and Sydney). By 1989, 7/10 SANFL clubs were loss making propisitions. The same year, VFL income was $30 million - the WAFL and SANFL combined made $12 million.

The mid 80s werent a fun time for many clubs, and the WAFL. But lets not pretend that the Eagles saved the league. Brisbane ponied up the 4 million up front as well at the same time, and both license fees definitely bailed out the broke clubs.

And the cashed up SANFL sat back and watched..............the SANFL should have gone national in that era. Or at least driven the concept of a "National League" with the best clubs from the SANFL/WAFL/VFL in it. But no, they were content to sit back and watch, maybe passively wait for the VFL to fall over and swoop in, but I doubt that.

VFL coming up with the idea of licence fees to save their league, and in course become the AFL. Good luck to them, they took a punt and it paid off. The minnow Vic clubs can thank the VFL admin of that era for belonging to the AFL now.

 

[telsor]

And the cashed up SANFL sat back and watched..............the SANFL should have gone national in that era. Or at least driven the concept of a "National League" with the best clubs from the SANFL/WAFL/VFL in it.

Miss this line did you?

By 1989, 7/10 SANFL clubs were loss making propisitions.

 

[Geoffa32]

Miss this line did you?

The league had cash though.

They could have driven a change to have all the stong clubs across the three leagues compete in a National League.

 

[telsor]

The league had cash though.

They could have driven a change to have all the stong clubs across the three leagues compete in a National League.

The VFL was also cashed up.

But anyway...

You really think the SANFL would have done a better job than the VFL?

Would they have dumped most of their own teams to do it?

Look at how they currently act and tell me they would see beyond their club interests....

 

[Geoffa32]

The VFL was also cashed up.

But anyway...

You really think the SANFL would have done a better job than the VFL?

Would they have dumped most of their own teams to do it?

Look at how they currently act and tell me they would see beyond their club interests....

Probably not. I do think though a league built up of the best four or so of the WAFL/SANFL/VFL would have been a better option. I know that some on the SANFL thought so to.

But the VFL took the punt (who dares wins) and now we have the AFL. On the whole I think the comp is fine though, probably could be better with a couple of the minnow (on field underacheivers in AFL era) Vic teams out.

 

[telsor]

Probably not. I do think though a league built up of the best four or so of the WAFL/SANFL/VFL would have been a better option. I know that some on the SANFL thought so to.

But the VFL took the punt (who dares wins) and now we have the AFL. On the whole I think the comp is fine though, probably could be better with a couple of the minnow (on field underacheivers in AFL era) Vic teams out.

Really, the VFL is the only one who could have. If SA/WA had proposed setting up clubs in Vic, or each others state (or having existing clubs move across to their league) it wouldn't have gained much traction. The VFL being that half a step up on the others was the only one who could sell the idea of being the promotion/better league that gave the idea credibility.

Ideally a national league would have been started from scratch, but in practical terms, it would have been far more difficult initially. Your suggestion of 'best four or so of the WAFL/SANFL/VFL' is a good example of why....With the Vic market over twice as big, they would have wanted ~twice as many teams...and SA/WA probably wouldn't have liked that idea very much...Not to mention, how do you fit in Sydney/Brisbane in that model?

 

[Ned_Flanders]

Probably not. I do think though a league built up of the best four or so of the WAFL/SANFL/VFL would have been a better option. I know that some on the SANFL thought so to.

But the VFL took the punt (who dares wins) and now we have the AFL. On the whole I think the comp is fine though, probably could be better with a couple of the minnow (on field underacheivers in AFL era) Vic teams out.

Its before my time so I have no idea of the specifics, but wasn't the idea of a national comp touted at one point of time, but always failed to get traction because of the usual interstate power play BS?

 

[The_Wookie]

Its before my time so I have no idea of the specifics, but wasn't the idea of a national comp touted at one point of time, but always failed to get traction because of the usual interstate power play BS?

SA were always the driving force behind any setup, ostensibly to be run by the NFL, and were supported by the WAFL in that. The NFL conmducted a strudy into the feasibility of a national league in 1985. The VFL paid no attention, but one of its more interesting recommendations was that the SANFL team not be a composite job (such as the Crows later were) but a join Norwood-Port entity. As early as 1985, the VFL had already decided to go it alone in national expansion, and it kind of left the others scrambling for a plan b.

The whole non VFL national league concept was continually undermined by teams like East Perth applying to the VFL as early as 1980, the SANFL applying to put a composite team in as early as 1981 - both were rejected by the VFL who werent interested at the time - and the permanent shift of South Melbourne to Sydney in 1983.

In 1986, the VFL presidents voted for national league expansion and the rest is history. The WAFL couldnt get into bed fast enough - West Coast were set up and the license paid for within 6 months of the go aheaad. The SANFL were invited but decline - they did register Adelaide Football CLub at the time. As a result of the SANFL decline, the Bears were set up under private ownership.

In 1990, The SANFL clubs unanimously voted against joining the VFL, flatly refused to pay a license fee and demanded the national league have no more than 14 teams. Eventually, they did join (thanks to Port), had to pay 4 millon for the license fee (Port had negotiated it down to 1.5 million), and the league kept expanding. lol.

 

[Rob]

Its before my time so I have no idea of the specifics, but wasn't the idea of a national comp touted at one point of time, but always failed to get traction because of the usual interstate power play BS?

Elliott talked of establishing it at one stage. I think he even had a few meetings with the top 6 clubs in Melbourne to discuss the prospect. I don't really know how much contact he had with the WAFL and SANFL, but by gee there would have been a shitfight if 2 or 3 clubs from WA and SA were to be included (whether that be existing clubs or newly formed ones).

 

[Kwality]

Elliott talked of establishing it at one stage. I think he even had a few meetings with the top 6 clubs in Melbourne to discuss the prospect. I don't really know how much contact he had with the WAFL and SANFL, but by gee there would have been a shitfight if 2 or 3 clubs from WA and SA were to be included (whether that be existing clubs or newly formed ones).

Well covered in a book by Gary Linnell
Football Ltd: The Inside Story of the AFL by Garry Linnell
Cant quote as my copy is in storage at the direction of Mrs Kwality.

If a some clubs from each comp had been elevated to the top comp, they would not have gained the support that say the Eagles receive.

Previous mention of this book have been met with suggestions Linnell is a WA stooge - before this foolish claim is repeated google Linnell, a mate of Eddie & currently in senior management at Fairfax.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

Thanks for all this. Sad it didn't get up, would have been the best solution for all IMO.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

Well covered in a book by Gary Linnell
Football Ltd: The Inside Story of the AFL by Garry Linnell
Cant quote as my copy is in storage at the direction of Mrs Kwality.

If a some clubs from each comp had been elevated to the top comp, they would not have gained the support that say the Eagles receive.

Previous mention of this book have been met with suggestions Linnell is a WA stooge - before this foolish claim is repeated google Linnell, a mate of Eddie & currently in senior management at Fairfax.

I have said several times in various places on big footy that this is the best football book I have read as it explains why things have turned out the way they have. And its time Linnell produced a second edition and if he did it now would include the GC and GWS stuff.

I am travelling so I don't have my copy with me. Anyone saying Linnell is anyone's stooge is an idiot. Most of the 2006 Fox Footy Channel Headliners doco's about the birth of the Eagles and Crows, the Footscray attempted shutdown, the swans situation and even some of the Collingwood stuff in the early/mid 1980's was based around what Linnell put down in the book and the off field power plays.

I even wrote up most of the chapter on the SA footy battle to not enter a team in the VFL/AFL and then Port's bid and the fallout at the following thread back in June 2005.

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/port-for-afl-1990-no-crows.179623/page-5#post-3463239