Are we in a rebuild?

[Pessimistic]

Pessimistic imagine if we had that Heath Shaw player but we didn't realize? Like Harry Morrison

A bit of mongrel seems to have been the byword for our 2015 draftees

 

[Roughies Boys]

A bit of mongrel seems to have been the byword for our 2015 draftees

Vickery has shown some, standing up for teammates.

 

[OzJohnnie]

As i posted above, I think the Club was hedging its bets pre-season and thought we would be more competitive than we are. Sort of looks like an express rebuild.

If we were in full rebuild mode, which we may be as of today, then the Club is busy planning for a respectful way to end the careers of Gibson, Hodge and Burgoyne, and also trying every kid on the list (Willsmore, Heatherley, etc).

This weeks changes will tell us more

My intent here is not to be provocative, I just think the club has always been planning to do what you describe above. Ie, retire the three and put games into the youth. The new players have been in the side all season. Against St Kilda we had 8 players that weren't in the final side against Geelong last year. Plus three more if you count Roughead, Burton and Sicily as new players. That's 50% of the side turning over on either form or injury (Brichall) in the course of just six games. It honestly looks to me like the club is already in full list turnover mode.

FYI - out from the Geelong finals game:

- Duryea
- Birchall (Injury but still out)
- S Mitchell
- Hill
- Schoenmakers
- Fitzpatrick
- Lewis
- Whitecross

In against St Kilda:
- Hardwick
- T Mitchell
- Hartung
- O'Brien
- (Roughead, doesn't count for this argument)
- Langford
- O'Meara
- Brand
- Howe
- Burton (in the Geelong side but just a handful of games)
- Sicily (also in the Geelong side but just two handfuls of games)

 

[Nugett]

I can understand the moving on of Mitchell and Lewis. They were the only two of last year 30 year olds that had any realistic chance of moving on to other clubs. Why we are missing Lewis's aggression and grunt, we are also missing Mitchell's' teaching/instructing abilities on the field more so. While they are missed greatly so far this year, it is only a short term solution. It would have hindered playing the young guys more, further stunting their chance of reaching their potential. The club is not only looking at the present, but trying to look 5 years into the future, as to see where we will be. Of the 3 remaining veterans imo only Hodge could have got us a pick back in the Mitchell/Lewis range. With Gibson and Burgoyne, the only option would have been to delist.

 

[Burtman]

Think we definitely missed the boat on getting cheap kids from gws. Plowman and Steele would of been amazing gets for us. Hopefully we r in hoppers ear ATM, he won't come cheap but u add him into our midfield and a free agent midfielder like rocky and it goes a long way to kick starting our engine room. So in an ideal world we add those two, and maybe a key position defender and a line breaking defender i.e. trengove and pittard. That would be a perfect trade period and would only cost us our 2018 1st rounder and a chunk of the salary cap

 

[Nugett]

Burton, Lovell, Hardwick, Stewart, Surman, Nash and glass are all exciting potential prospects for the future. From what I've seen, heard and read. But then again it could be a case of the 3 wise monkeys: see no evil, hear no evil and speak no evil.

 

[Roughies Boys]

Think we definitely missed the boat on getting cheap kids from gws. Plowman and Steele would of been amazing gets for us. Hopefully we r in hoppers ear ATM, he won't come cheap but u add him into our midfield and a free agent midfielder like rocky and it goes a long way to kick starting our engine room. So in an ideal world we add those two, and maybe a key position defender and a line breaking defender i.e. trengove and pittard. That would be a perfect trade period and would only cost us our 2018 1st rounder and a chunk of the salary cap

Would Sam Reid from Swans interest you?

 

[Collins-Langford-Ayres]

Guys young enough to be at our next tilt for a flag and clear best 22:

Breust, Rioli, Smith, Gunston, O'Meara, Mitchell, Burton, Brand, Stratton, Frawley, Shiels, Cegs...

Jury still out on Hartung, Langford, Hardwick, Stewart, JOR...

That's a lot of spots to fill.

 

[OzJohnnie]

Guys young enough to be at our next tilt for a flag and clear best 22:

Breust, Rioli, Smith, Gunston, O'Meara, Mitchell, Burton, Brand, Stratton, Frawley, Shiels, Cegs...

Jury still out on Hartung, Langford, Hardwick, Stewart, JOR...

That's a lot of spots to fill.

That's five spots. In how many years time? I'm not saying it's easy, but it's far from overly challenging.

 

[Roughies Boys]

That's five spots. In how many years time? I'm not saying it's easy, but it's far from overly challenging.

Collins-Langford-Ayres

Fill it with Hopper, Whitfield, Trengove & Lynch (Gold Coast)

 

[SA HAWK]

I think we need a full rebuild.

Can't see us playing finals for 5+ years.

 

[Wesley2]

Things aren't going great and need to change, but calling for sackings and trades this early before the team is settled is what will turn this team into a basket case licketty split. We'll lose more games this year, and no early picks will hurt but there's more than one way replenish a list. We may need to trade a loved player eventually but it's simply too early to see the big picture. Any rebuild won't be completed in 2017, can't expect incredible results this year. I'll be eyeing improvement in kicking accuracy and defensive pressure as the changes I'm hoping for, with heavily lowered expectations in mind.

 

[Nugett]

1 bad year in ages and it's like dropping a snickers over a cliff in a starving 3rd world country.

 

[Glebehawk]

I think the club has attempted a mini rebuild but a full rebuild is now required. Clarkson, Wright and co have got more right than many in footy history but they got a couple things wrong after last season (and this is all with the benefit of hindsight):

1. They overrated the second tier.
This is the crucial error that has set us back a couple of wasted years. The likes of Gunston, Breust, Shiels, Smith, Stratton and Frawley were very good players in a champion side. But they are much lesser players in a lesser side. This is the biggest mistake the club has made as it informed the other decisions that were then made late last year.

2. Last year's trade period
I think the club got some things wrong in the trade period. Mitchell and O'Meara were the right targets, for either a mini rebuild or a full rebuild. I have no issue with the targets and no issue with the price we paid for Mitchell. Pick 14 for a 23 year old gun midfielder is a great deal.

I have concerns over O'Meara's body given his last 2 games and the further knee injury but let's not forget he has missed two years and still had 37 touches in his second game back (how many players on our list have ever had 37 touches?). I am confident he will be a very good player for us. Whether he will be the same explosive athlete he once was I am not sure.

The price we paid for O'Meara has been inflated by that first error - overrating the second tier. If the 2017 draft pick was pick 13-14 (as I'm sure the decision makers expected it to be), the trade would be a good one. As it now looks like being pick 1-3 given our woeful performance this year, it clearly looks like overs.

3. Trading the wrong big names
We should not have traded Mitchell and Lewis for nothing. We would be a much more competitive side in 2017 with them and anyone who suggests otherwise is just drinking the cool aid. I don't think we would be a contender and possibly not even a finals side but we wouldn't be the shambolic lineup we currently are.

Again it comes down to overrating that second tier. Mitchell and Lewis did the heavy lifting. And more to the point, had the inadequacies of that second tier been identified before last year's trade period, the best strategy would have been to trade Shiels and Breust to secure Mitchell and O'Meara and keep our early pick for 2017.

4. Re-signing Breust
We trade out of this year's first round but we had a chance to get back into it if we let Breust leave as a free agent. Given where we look like finishing, the compensation pick for Breust would have probably been pick 2-4. All in hindsight, but re-signing him was an error.

Ultimately we now start a rebuild behind the 8-ball. We should look to move on a couple of those second tier players at seasons end, albeit for less than we would have received last year.

This is a fantastic post. Couldn't agree more on all the points and had the exact same thoughts when Bruest was resigned. Mistake.

 

[SA HAWK]

This is a fantastic post. Couldn't agree more on all the points and had the exact same thoughts when Bruest was resigned. Mistake.

Bruest would be a great fit @ GWS imo I wonder what we might be able to get for him from them?

Hopper would be the guy I would be targeting if the rumours about him being gettable are true.

Bruest would have to agree to a trade of course being contracted.

 

[Flukey!]

I hope we are.
If not, wtf is going on?

 

[Agent Smith]

Wait, what? Aren't we going for a 5-peat or something atm? Okay, I've lost count but if anyone can win it from 15th possie, it's us. Go us.

Pump up completed.

 

[Hawthorn United]

I think the club has attempted a mini rebuild but a full rebuild is now required. Clarkson, Wright and co have got more right than many in footy history but they got a couple things wrong after last season (and this is all with the benefit of hindsight):

1. They overrated the second tier.
This is the crucial error that has set us back a couple of wasted years. The likes of Gunston, Breust, Shiels, Smith, Stratton and Frawley were very good players in a champion side. But they are much lesser players in a lesser side. This is the biggest mistake the club has made as it informed the other decisions that were then made late last year.

2. Last year's trade period
I think the club got some things wrong in the trade period. Mitchell and O'Meara were the right targets, for either a mini rebuild or a full rebuild. I have no issue with the targets and no issue with the price we paid for Mitchell. Pick 14 for a 23 year old gun midfielder is a great deal.

I have concerns over O'Meara's body given his last 2 games and the further knee injury but let's not forget he has missed two years and still had 37 touches in his second game back (how many players on our list have ever had 37 touches?). I am confident he will be a very good player for us. Whether he will be the same explosive athlete he once was I am not sure.

The price we paid for O'Meara has been inflated by that first error - overrating the second tier. If the 2017 draft pick was pick 13-14 (as I'm sure the decision makers expected it to be), the trade would be a good one. As it now looks like being pick 1-3 given our woeful performance this year, it clearly looks like overs.

3. Trading the wrong big names
We should not have traded Mitchell and Lewis for nothing. We would be a much more competitive side in 2017 with them and anyone who suggests otherwise is just drinking the cool aid. I don't think we would be a contender and possibly not even a finals side but we wouldn't be the shambolic lineup we currently are.

Again it comes down to overrating that second tier. Mitchell and Lewis did the heavy lifting. And more to the point, had the inadequacies of that second tier been identified before last year's trade period, the best strategy would have been to trade Shiels and Breust to secure Mitchell and O'Meara and keep our early pick for 2017.

4. Re-signing Breust
We trade out of this year's first round but we had a chance to get back into it if we let Breust leave as a free agent. Given where we look like finishing, the compensation pick for Breust would have probably been pick 2-4. All in hindsight, but re-signing him was an error.

Ultimately we now start a rebuild behind the 8-ball. We should look to move on a couple of those second tier players at seasons end, albeit for less than we would have received last year.

Fantastic post.

Wanted to add that in season 2016, we were stating that we were rebuilding on the fly and it got us a top 4 finish and a kick after the siren from a Prelim.

I think this added to the club overrating the list and thinking we could rebuild whilst challenging again this year. The club wanted their cake and wanted to eat it too.



Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk

 

[Pessimistic]

Wouldn't they have kept Mitchell at least Lewis too

Everyone knows Sam was our hardest to replace player

 

[Coathanger]

I think the club has attempted a mini rebuild but a full rebuild is now required. Clarkson, Wright and co have got more right than many in footy history but they got a couple things wrong after last season (and this is all with the benefit of hindsight):

1. They overrated the second tier.
This is the crucial error that has set us back a couple of wasted years. The likes of Gunston, Breust, Shiels, Smith, Stratton and Frawley were very good players in a champion side. But they are much lesser players in a lesser side. This is the biggest mistake the club has made as it informed the other decisions that were then made late last year.

2. Last year's trade period
I think the club got some things wrong in the trade period. Mitchell and O'Meara were the right targets, for either a mini rebuild or a full rebuild. I have no issue with the targets and no issue with the price we paid for Mitchell. Pick 14 for a 23 year old gun midfielder is a great deal.

I have concerns over O'Meara's body given his last 2 games and the further knee injury but let's not forget he has missed two years and still had 37 touches in his second game back (how many players on our list have ever had 37 touches?). I am confident he will be a very good player for us. Whether he will be the same explosive athlete he once was I am not sure.

The price we paid for O'Meara has been inflated by that first error - overrating the second tier. If the 2017 draft pick was pick 13-14 (as I'm sure the decision makers expected it to be), the trade would be a good one. As it now looks like being pick 1-3 given our woeful performance this year, it clearly looks like overs.

3. Trading the wrong big names
We should not have traded Mitchell and Lewis for nothing. We would be a much more competitive side in 2017 with them and anyone who suggests otherwise is just drinking the cool aid. I don't think we would be a contender and possibly not even a finals side but we wouldn't be the shambolic lineup we currently are.

Again it comes down to overrating that second tier. Mitchell and Lewis did the heavy lifting. And more to the point, had the inadequacies of that second tier been identified before last year's trade period, the best strategy would have been to trade Shiels and Breust to secure Mitchell and O'Meara and keep our early pick for 2017.

4. Re-signing Breust
We trade out of this year's first round but we had a chance to get back into it if we let Breust leave as a free agent. Given where we look like finishing, the compensation pick for Breust would have probably been pick 2-4. All in hindsight, but re-signing him was an error.

Ultimately we now start a rebuild behind the 8-ball. We should look to move on a couple of those second tier players at seasons end, albeit for less than we would have received last year.

"if we let Breust leave as a free agent". He never wanted to leave?

 

[Pessimistic]

Poll options are wrong. Option should be three year overhaul. Meaning replacing key players who leave over a three year period

2015. Lake and hale
2016 Mitchell and Lewis. (Hill unfortunately)
2017. Hodge Gibson. Maybe Burgoyne

Same happened to a lesser extent in 2010 to 2013

We know what happened in 2013 to 2015

No ones saying there won't be pain

 

[Pessimistic]

That's a lot of quality to replace but 2013-2015 was a damn fine side with a threepete 13 quarters won from 16 grand final quarters unlucky not to win 4 flags

We don't need to replace all that talent just to be a top 4 side capable of a flag

 

[The Lemon]

I thought the club was in denial...wowee should send them this thread!

 

[Agent Smith]

Everyone knows Sam was our hardest to replace player

In order to rebuild, that's why we had to let him go.

 

[threesixpio]

I think the club has attempted a mini rebuild but a full rebuild is now required. Clarkson, Wright and co have got more right than many in footy history but they got a couple things wrong after last season (and this is all with the benefit of hindsight):

1. They overrated the second tier.
This is the crucial error that has set us back a couple of wasted years. The likes of Gunston, Breust, Shiels, Smith, Stratton and Frawley were very good players in a champion side. But they are much lesser players in a lesser side. This is the biggest mistake the club has made as it informed the other decisions that were then made late last year.

2. Last year's trade period
I think the club got some things wrong in the trade period. Mitchell and O'Meara were the right targets, for either a mini rebuild or a full rebuild. I have no issue with the targets and no issue with the price we paid for Mitchell. Pick 14 for a 23 year old gun midfielder is a great deal.

I have concerns over O'Meara's body given his last 2 games and the further knee injury but let's not forget he has missed two years and still had 37 touches in his second game back (how many players on our list have ever had 37 touches?). I am confident he will be a very good player for us. Whether he will be the same explosive athlete he once was I am not sure.

The price we paid for O'Meara has been inflated by that first error - overrating the second tier. If the 2017 draft pick was pick 13-14 (as I'm sure the decision makers expected it to be), the trade would be a good one. As it now looks like being pick 1-3 given our woeful performance this year, it clearly looks like overs.

3. Trading the wrong big names
We should not have traded Mitchell and Lewis for nothing. We would be a much more competitive side in 2017 with them and anyone who suggests otherwise is just drinking the cool aid. I don't think we would be a contender and possibly not even a finals side but we wouldn't be the shambolic lineup we currently are.

Again it comes down to overrating that second tier. Mitchell and Lewis did the heavy lifting. And more to the point, had the inadequacies of that second tier been identified before last year's trade period, the best strategy would have been to trade Shiels and Breust to secure Mitchell and O'Meara and keep our early pick for 2017.

4. Re-signing Breust
We trade out of this year's first round but we had a chance to get back into it if we let Breust leave as a free agent. Given where we look like finishing, the compensation pick for Breust would have probably been pick 2-4. All in hindsight, but re-signing him was an error.

Ultimately we now start a rebuild behind the 8-ball. We should look to move on a couple of those second tier players at seasons end, albeit for less than we would have received last year.

While still premature this is the best criticism I have read. It's too early for me to agree with it but these issues are definitely on my radar