Win Prizes Ask an Atheist II

[Gethelred]

Welcome to the Ask an Atheist thread II.

Previous part:

Win Prizes - Ask an Atheist - Shoe's on the other foot now!

Alright, we're going to have a change of tack. As I'm sure you can see, the thread title has been changed to Ask an Atheist. People who have a question to ask of the atheists who populate this thread - more than the christians do - should feel free to ask questions of them. If you've still got...

www.bigfooty.com

Standard board rules apply.

 

[Roylion]

A question to agnostics - what are you agnostic about and why?

If you're agnostic about god because you can't disprove its existence, are you agnostic about Thor, the Easter bunny, and the Flying Spaghetti Monster for the same reason?

I can't disprove the existance of God, therefore I cannot say that I know God does not exist.

An agnostic holds that one cannot know for certain whether or not it or they exist, as defined. Therefore any claims to the form or creed of supernatural beings such as god or Satan are the products of human imagination. They have to be, as the existance, form or creed of 'God' is unknowable.

A agnostic would say, "I cannot know whether a deity exists or not, and neither can you."

Many agnostics therefore live their lives without concern for observing the worship of an unknowable god and do not concern themselves with attempting to 'know' God, who is unknowable.

Agnostics will most likely treat, with disbelief and incredulity, those who claim to definitely 'know' that there is a god or gods (including Thor etc.) through their own 'experiences' or that they know the 'will' or 'form' of such a supernatural being through the reading of a 'Holy' text or other works. As such they will often reject 'religion' in its various forms.

I neither know..nor care...if 'God', or 'god', or 'gods' exist/s. These figments of human imagination are immaterial to me.

The English biologist Thomas Henry Huxley coined the word 'agnostic' in 1869, and said:

"It simply means that a man shall not say he knows or believes that which he has no scientific grounds for professing to know or believe."

 

[King Huskii]

A question to agnostics - what are you agnostic about and why?

If you're agnostic about god because you can't disprove its existence, are you agnostic about Thor, the Easter bunny, and the Flying Spaghetti Monster for the same reason?

I'm an atheist but go under the label of agnostic as we can't prove or disprove. I definitely don't believe in religion as it's man made. Plus this God that we are told to worship it a bit of a campaigner. I mean he wants us to worship him as he invents incurable diseases.

 

[Markfs]

A question to agnostics - what are you agnostic about and why?

If you're agnostic about god because you can't disprove its existence, are you agnostic about Thor, the Easter bunny, and the Flying Spaghetti Monster for the same reason?

i'm agnostic because i dont trust myself to make the right decision... i'm more agnostic about the flying monster than the bunny but probably less agnostic about thor...

 

[Markfs]

I'm an atheist but go under the label of agnostic as we can't prove or disprove. I definitely don't believe in religion as it's man made. Plus this God that we are told to worship it a bit of a campaigner. I mean he wants us to worship him as he invents incurable diseases.

surely you've had a boss who wants you to work extra hours for nothing, but wants you to love him.... god is like that boss

 

[King Huskii]

surely you've had a boss who wants you to work extra hours for nothing, but wants you to love him.... god is like that boss

A very thought provoking response

You might be the return of Jesus

 

[Markfs]

A very thought provoking response

You might be the return of Jesus

i'd look forward to coming a second time...

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

A question to agnostics - what are you agnostic about and why?

If you're agnostic about god because you can't disprove its existence, are you agnostic about Thor, the Easter bunny, and the Flying Spaghetti Monster for the same reason?

Logically I can't prove or disprove ANY of those things. If I can't see it or communicate with it does it exist? Is it ignoring me? Does it only bob up for believers?

Undecided on every score. Some say this is a pure example of a fencesitting fear of commitment but I only see it as logic.

 

[Markfs]

I see a big difference between questions about whether something started the universe to questions about whether jesus or thor existed. I'm a lot more agnostic about the former, than I am to narratives that appear to be man-made. There are some who look at the universe and see a role for an entity to initiate it, and then pronounce that this entity is christian and consists of three aspects, one of which transformed itself into human form...yada yada.....The more specific this defining of a god, the more unbelievable it becomes for me.

So when the question is about whether there is an entity that started the universe, I tend to be agnostic, but by the time it gets to questions about the divinity of jesus, I have become atheistic. I dont believe jesus was a god. I dont believe thor was either. The only difference appears to be that jesus might have existed in some form. The vikings never made a case that thor came in human form.

I will admit that the recent "problems" with the big bang theory does appear to muddy the water about how it all began. However, we've only been trying to answer this question realistically for a couple of hundred years. Before that, we have spent thousands of years making stuff up. I'd give the scientists a few more hundred years to see if they can come up with something scientific. We already know that the universe as it is now, wasnt established in 6 days. On the historical front, we are also dealing realistically with the legend that has become jesus and are weeding out the crap inserted in by vested interests since his "death", if in fact, that really happened. In short, on a number of fronts, we are in the investigation stage. It's too soon to really know what happened so it would seem illogical to me to pre-empt a decision.

However, if people want a progress report, then I would say that there is a possibility that some entity began the universe. However, Thor is clearly a man-made construct. Jesus has the advantage of probably having existed, but there is nothing that would indicate that he was divine. So I suggest that we continue to research the issue, but there's no guarantee that we are going to come up with an "answer" in my lifetime, if ever. That doesnt mean that we have to make things up to make ourselves feel comfortable.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

Worship was explain to me as being a human need, in that we were made with an innate need to worship something or someone; when we worship god, it fills that need with the right source. Otherwise we end up worshipping ourselves, materialism, sport teams, etc.

Not me. I don’t worship anything. Not even Errol Gulden.

I admire a lot of things. I try to find the good in everything.

But I think to worship things is not healthy and we humans need to move on.

 

[madmug]

That doesnt mean that we have to make things up to make ourselves feel comfortable.

I don't mind if people make themselves feel comfortable following one of the myriad of deities they have to chose from.
Its when the extremists in their ranks attempt, or actually force their beliefs on people with extreme prejudice, as they often tend to, that I get a little testy about it all.
Its disappointing to see this happening in the US with some of the White supremist/Christian nationalist nutters on the scene.
I'd sort of hoped we'd gotten past the Spanish inquisition style of religious persuasion/indoctrination by now.

 

[Markfs]

I don't mind if people make themselves feel comfortable following one of the myriad of deities they have to chose from.
Its when the extremists in their ranks attempt, or actually force their beliefs on people with extreme prejudice, as they often tend to, that I get a little testy about it all.
Its disappointing to see this happening in the US with some of the White supremist/Christian nationalist nutters on the scene.
I'd sort of hoped we'd gotten past the Spanish inquisition style of religious persuasion/indoctrination by now.

it's the incidious nature of why these religions get to so many people. They claim the right to spread the good news and then they push it on people that they are feeding in a famine....or they are pushing it onto 5 year olds that have no ability to make a balanced assessment.

I remember the group, "the children of god" who used to go out basically recruit members through sex. They've changed their names but they're still around.

Maybe god is watching and he will send another flood, and hopefully warn atheists like myself to go to mount Kosciuszko to escape the purge....

 

[King Huskii]

If God could create the floods and wipe out everything except what was on the arc couldn't God just remove the evil in the world as that is what is intended? Or maybe they didn't think of that when writing, as they invented the bible.

I had an old mate who believes word for word the bible. It's hilarious. I had a good chuckle at his stupidity. I can't believe how gullible people are.

 

[madmug]

If God could create the floods and wipe out everything except what was on the arc couldn't God just remove the evil in the world as that is what is intended? Or maybe they didn't think of that when writing they invented the bible.

I had an old mate who believes word for word the bible. It's hilarious. I had a good chuckle at his stupidity. I can't believe how gullible people are.

Its sounds funny but it gets serious when they mix religion with white supremacy & political power, especially Conservative political power.
The Catholic Church dominated Europe & joined in with the theft & murder of Empire building & colonial times. Now with all the various cults vying for 'souls' & their money, it is a real & dangerous battle. Islam is no different, its just a little light on the Capitalist flavour. Non the less, they aim for children & to dumb down the education system.
If their is any such thing, I think we recognise real evil when we see it.

 

[King Huskii]

Its sounds funny but it gets serious when they mix religion with white supremacy & political power, especially Conservative political power.
The Catholic Church dominated Europe & joined in with the theft & murder of Empire building & colonial times. Now with all the various cults vying for 'souls' & their money, it is a real & dangerous battle. Islam is no different, its just a little light on the Capitalist flavour. Non the less, they aim for children & to dumb down the education system.
If their is any such thing, I think we recognise real evil when we see it.

100%

 

[evolved2]

I can't disprove the existance of God, therefore I cannot say that I know God does not exist.

An agnostic holds that one cannot know for certain whether or not it or they exist, as defined. Therefore any claims to the form or creed of supernatural beings such as god or Satan are the products of human imagination. They have to be, as the existance, form or creed of 'God' is unknowable.

A agnostic would say, "I cannot know whether a deity exists or not, and neither can you."

Many agnostics therefore live their lives without concern for observing the worship of an unknowable god and do not concern themselves with attempting to 'know' God, who is unknowable.

Agnostics will most likely treat, with disbelief and incredulity, those who claim to definitely 'know' that there is a god or gods (including Thor etc.) through their own 'experiences' or that they know the 'will' or 'form' of such a supernatural being through the reading of a 'Holy' text or other works. As such they will often reject 'religion' in its various forms.

I neither know..nor care...if 'God', or 'god', or 'gods' exist/s. These figments of human imagination are immaterial to me.

The English biologist Thomas Henry Huxley coined the word 'agnostic' in 1869, and said:

"It simply means that a man shall not say he knows or believes that which he has no scientific grounds for professing to know or believe."

I've read many of your posts on theism and can't really distinguish the difference between your agnosticism and my atheism.

Using Richard Dawkins' spectrum of theistic probability, where would you sit?

1. Strong theist. 100% probability of God. In the words of Carl Jung: "I do not believe, I know."
2. De facto theist. Very high probability but short of 100%. "I don't know for certain, but I strongly believe in God and live my life on the assumption that he is there."
3. Leaning towards theism. Higher than 50% but not very high. "I am very uncertain, but I am inclined to believe in God."
4. Completely impartial. Exactly 50%. "God's existence and non-existence are exactly equiprobable."
5. Leaning towards atheism. Lower than 50% but not very low. "I do not know whether God exists but I'm inclined to be skeptical."
6. De facto atheist. Very low probability, but short of zero. "I don't know for certain but I think God is very improbable, and I live my life on the assumption that he is not there."
7. Strong atheist. "I know there is no God, with the same conviction as Jung knows there is one."

I'd place myself at 6.5 on that list. I know the religious gods don't exist in the same way I know that a Flying Spaghetti Monster doesn't exist. Theoretically there is a non-zero probability that may as well be zero for practical purposes. It's not worth thinking over until evidence is put forth.

Could their be higher forms of intelligence in existence somewhere? Sure, that's possible. Atheism isn't about being closeminded; rather it's about opening yourself up to a wider range of possibilities beyond goddidit. Scientific progress depends on those who think deeper than god.

 

[evolved2]

Logically I can't prove or disprove ANY of those things. If I can't see it or communicate with it does it exist? Is it ignoring me? Does it only bob up for believers?

Undecided on every score. Some say this is a pure example of a fencesitting fear of commitment but I only see it as logic.

Prayer studies show that god doesn't bob up for believers either. God is Sagan's dragon:

"A fire-breathing dragon lives in my garage"
Suppose (I'm following a group therapy approach by the psychologist Richard Franklin I seriously make such an assertion to you. Surely you'd want to check it out, see for yourself. There have been innumerable stories of dragons over the centuries, but no real evidence. What an opportunity!

"Show me," you say. I lead you to my garage. You look inside and see a ladder, empty paint cans, an old tricycle — but no dragon.

"Where's the dragon?" you ask.

"Oh, she's right here," I reply, waving vaguely. "I neglected to mention that she's an invisible dragon."

You propose spreading flour on the floor of the garage to capture the dragon's footprints.

"Good idea," I say, "but this dragon floats in the air."

Then you'll use an infrared sensor to detect the invisible fire.

"Good idea, but the invisible fire is also heatless."

You'll spray-paint the dragon and make her visible.

"Good idea, but she's an incorporeal dragon and the paint won't stick."

And so on. I counter every physical test you propose with a special explanation of why it won't work.

Now, what's the difference between an invisible, incorporeal, floating dragon who spits heatless fire and no dragon at all? If there's no way to disprove my contention, no conceivable experiment that would count against it, what does it mean to say that my dragon exists? Your inability to invalidate my hypothesis is not at all the same thing as proving it true. Claims that cannot be tested, assertions immune to disproof are veridically worthless, whatever value they may have in inspiring us or in exciting our sense of wonder. What I'm asking you to do comes down to believing, in the absence of evidence, on my say-so.

 

[Markfs]

I'm getting older....I might need a god at some stage...

 

[evolved2]

I'm getting older....I might need a god at some stage...

Is it the same as shopping around for walking sticks or a nursing home? Do you pick the god that offers the best afterlife or have a different set of criteria?

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

Prayer studies show that god doesn't bob up for believers either. God is Sagan's dragon:

Yep. Unfalsifiable assertions should be relegated to well back in our discourse.

Anyone can make claims which can’t be proven, yet achieve a fake lustre of truth purely because they can’t be disproved.

And so it all comes down to belief, when what really should be guiding our lives is not what we believe to be true, but what is true.

The elevation of both belief and faith in our day-to-day discourse are entirely unearned, in my opinion. (We mustn’t offend people’s beliefs, oh no! Well eff that, I say.)

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Yep. Unfalsifiable assertions should be relegated to well back in our discourse.

Anyone can make claims which can’t be proven, yet achieve a fake lustre of truth purely because they can’t be disproved.

And so it all comes down to belief, when what really should be guiding our lives is not what we believe to be true, but what is true.

The elevation of both belief and faith in our day-to-day discourse are entirely unearned, in my opinion. (We mustn’t offend people’s beliefs, oh no! Well eff that, I say.)

While I liked what you said I think there's room for individual faith. It just becomes a problem when collective faith (religion) attempts to dominate the living space.

To each their own, just keep it out of my face!

 

[Boston tiger]

Yep. Unfalsifiable assertions should be relegated to well back in our discourse.

Anyone can make claims which can’t be proven, yet achieve a fake lustre of truth purely because they can’t be disproved.

And so it all comes down to belief, when what really should be guiding our lives is not what we believe to be true, but what is true.

The elevation of both belief and faith in our day-to-day discourse are entirely unearned, in my opinion. (We mustn’t offend people’s beliefs, oh no! Well eff that, I say.)

Is it true we should forgive those who have wronged us ? Is it true we should love our enemies? Is it true that we should self examen our actions of the day and strive to do better.
We all know this brings happiness and contentment but it’s hard work on your own. We are just filthy mammals remember.
We live in a society founded on love so let’s keep it going and you guys just settle down and watch your science shows.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

Is it true we should forgive those who have wronged us ? Is it true we should love our enemies? Is it true that we should self examen our actions of the day and strive to do better.
We all know this brings happiness and contentment but it’s hard work on your own. We are just filthy mammals remember.
We live in a society founded on love so let’s keep it going and you guys just settle down and watch your science shows.

A life lived prioritising truth, fact and reality doesn’t mean closing our minds to love.

Religion didn’t invent love, humans did. Religion has sure tried to arrogate it though.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

While I liked what you said I think there's room for individual faith. It just becomes a problem when collective faith (religion) attempts to dominate the living space.

To each their own, just keep it out of my face!

Absolutely. I cannot stress enough how everyone has a right to believe whatever helps them live their life.

But that right to believe doesn’t extend to the right to bomb abortion clinics, for example, or to execute apostates.

 

[Rusty Brookes]

Absolutely. I cannot stress enough how everyone has a right to believe whatever helps them live their life.

But that right to believe doesn’t extend to the right to bomb abortion clinics, for example, or to execute apostates.

Agreed but I'd go slightly further and note that that right should not impinge on the rights of any other, in any way shape or form. It wasn't that long ago when all pubs used to close on Good Friday in Melbourne. That's impinging on the rights of non believers, followers of other religions, business-owners and so on.

Just as an aside, I can remember attending one of the first ever Good Friday gigs at the Tote Hotel (Tumbleweed being the headliner) and it was made out in some quarters that fire and brimstone were inevitable due to us heathens.

 

[Markfs]

i think the worship of commerce and money should never have limits placed on it. Unfortunately, people still feel bashful about proclaiming their love for "things". We're in a transitional stage. Traditional religion might provide the mystical narrative that some people need, but to be blunt about it, the greater majority of people run their lives with the purpose of getting money and things. Yes we need something to console us as we get older and I feel myself that my love of things has declined as I aged, but it's always present. Months go by when I dont even consider god, but I weekly shop at amazon. I pay bills. I look at my bank accounts.

Ironically, and i've never thought of this before, but whole continents have changed their religion based on the ability of conquerors to provide food or greater technology. For example, would large sections of africa wouldnt have traded to christianity if it wasnt for the ability of the british, french etc to provide food or a higher standard of liviing. Think of indigeous people in australia who were weaned from a rich tapestry of myths and legends to a boring lifeless thing that we call christianity......because of the greater wealth and technology of whites.

Yes techology is part of it. But technology feeds on wealth and feeds wealth....and making more "things". Consumerism, wealth, technology.... lets just call it money.

I look at traditional arab leaders in the middle east and asia, and the thing that they fear the most isnt the spread of christianity, or even concepts like freedom..... it's the spread of consumerism....the focus on money....the need to get stuff. This is the ultimate religion. Its based on self interest, and while people want love and conection with others, self interest will always win out and money will always be the true god....

so i wont ask christians here to repent and lay down and worship money....but many have already done that. I just ask them to look into their hearts and ask themselves what they truly believe in and if they're honest with themselves, and admit what is their true god