Australia will grow to like Tony Abbott as PM

[Ratts of Tobruk]

Thank you, I appreciate your reply. Now here is the thing, if Zaky Mallah and that group in the Sydney want harsher laws now, then could it be possible that those calls will grow louder in time? With a more inclusive approach to this issue, it could also result in larger numbers calling for harsher laws. If this does happen - and yes it is a hypothetical - then the government would have to either take the same stance Abbott taken, or buckle. That was just my observation on the issue, but I am sure it is even more complex than that. I understand that people like to pot Abbott out over the issue, but my initial remark was that it will be a long time before we know whether Abbot was right/wrong.

No. I suspect you have spent too long listening to rabble-rousers from the right. No-one who has spent any amount of time in Australian society in any position where you get a sense of the wider community would realistically suggest there is any chance of that happening.

You want evidence - the Christian conservatives can't get their way. Why on earth would 0.001% of the population suddenly get more swing than them? Gay Marriage looks like coming in. Abortion is widely acceptable. The idea of Sharia Law having any significant say in Australian society is 100% pure fantasy.

And on Abbott's approach, I think it is logical to suggest it effectively encourages extremism. It says to Muslims that their faith isn't to be trusted. It pushes them away. And young, angry men or women suddenly have a justification in their own mind to have a look at what the people online are saying - you know, the ones that claim that the West is Islam's enemy; the ones who point at the invasion of Iraq; and govt moves or comments against Islam. Sometimes it's worth remembering that there are a bunch of religious people, incl Christians, who believe they will be 'saved' when all the nations of the world are in conflict...

And don't treat what GI Jane just wrote as gospel. He is no expert on Islam, and the idea that Protestatism was based on a strict adherence to the word of God is wrong in it's over-simplification. Presumably Jane said that because the ideas of Martin Luther et al were that the Bible should be translated into the local tongue (instead of Latin) so everyone could understand it. There were some extremists who came out of that, who wanted literal adherance, but foremost it was a movement away from the 'indulgences' and power of Catholicism, which had severly undermined itself by having two popes (the pope is meant to be in contact with God, a direct descendent of Peter or something, so to have two of them is kind of odd - a situation which basically happened again recently when the last pope resigned. That hadn't happened since 1415.

 

[GuruJane]

Thank you Jane, that is an exceptional post. As someone who is only just learning about this particular issue, I feel better informed after reading that. How do you see this Islamic enlightment playing out within the context of a democracy?

Islam had a period of great enlightenment around 1100 that actually pre-dated the protestant revolution - but it only seemed to work for them as long as they were benevolent dictators. So I dunno the answer to that question.

btw Protestantism didn't begin and end with Luther - it went over a century and more with John Calvin (Geneva) , John Knox (Scottish presbyterians) John Wesley (Methodism) and then into the heavy duty fundamentalists - the baptists and anabaptists!

Good subject to study if one is interested in these things.

 

[Maggie5]

Are we still discussing liking Tony Abbott?
I think there are other threads on Sharia Law and Muslims.

 

[SonOfurX]

No. I suspect you have spent too long listening to rabble-rousers from the right. No-one who has spent any amount of time in Australian society in any position where you get a sense of the wider community would realistically suggest there is any chance of that happening.

You want evidence - the Christian conservatives can't get their way. Why on earth would 0.001% of the population suddenly get more swing than them? Gay Marriage looks like coming in. Abortion is widely acceptable. The idea of Sharia Law having any significant say in Australian society is 100% pure fantasy.

20 years ago the likelihood of gay marraige would've had similar numbers - perhaps less - than 0.001%. Is it really pure fantasy?

 

[SonOfurX]

Are we still discussing liking Tony Abbott?
I think there are other threads on Sharia Law and Muslims.

I can only speak for myself, but I was discussing Tony Abbott's stance on the issue. Within the context of this thread, I believe it is relevant. It sure beats criticizing Abbott just out of hate.

 

[Ratts of Tobruk]

20 years ago the likelihood of gay marraige would've had similar numbers - perhaps less - than 0.001%. Is it really pure fantasy?

Wrong again. But at least we're seeing that you aren't really approaching this in the open-minded way you were claiming. The gay population is often quoted at nearer to 10% than 0%.

And of course it is plain daft to suggest because a progressive idea like not discriminating against gay people has taken hold, that somehow those same people will suddenly decide not allowing women to drive is a good idea.

People criticised Abbott foremost for his approach and his policies. Not hate. His own party booted him ffs.

 

[SonOfurX]

Wrong again. But at least we're seeing that you aren't really approaching this in the open-minded way you were claiming. The gay population is often quoted at nearer to 10% than 0%.

I wasn't talking about right now, I was talking about 20 years ago. Would those numbers be 10% back then?
And.. Just because I am asking some legitimate questions, that doesn't mean I'm not looking at this issue with an open mind.

 

[Maggie5]

I can only speak for myself, but I was discussing Tony Abbott's stance on the issue. Within the context of this thread, I believe it is relevant. It sure beats criticizing Abbott just out of hate.

Not for me! Got his justice, you only score votes vilifying a sector of the community from the haters.

 

[GuruJane]

I can only speak for myself, but I was discussing Tony Abbott's stance on the issue. Within the context of this thread, I believe it is relevant. It sure beats criticizing Abbott just out of hate.

My op is that the Muslim leadership will insist on major changes on Israel policy from australia before they will make even lip service to Malcolm's need for consultative outcomes.
Can't see any reason why Malcolm would not oblige them either.

 

[madmug]

My op is that the Muslim leadership will insist on major changes on Israel policy from australia before they will make even lip service to Malcolm's need for consultative outcomes.
Can't see any reason why Malcolm would not oblige them either.

Not what was said on RN this morning. The Muslim communities in Sydney seem happy with the more consultative approach from Turnbull. The hairy chested approach of Abbott was always going to fail. Again, he was always more interested in the politics of wedging the opposition, rather than leading the country.

The real extremist tiny %age will always be the hard nut to crack. Getting the vast majority on side is surely always the most sensible way to go.

Marginalise the extremists, dont vilify the community, thats the best approach.

 

[Ratts of Tobruk]

I wasn't talking about right now, I was talking about 20 years ago. Would those numbers be 10% back then?
And.. Just because I am asking some legitimate questions, that doesn't mean I'm not looking at this issue with an open mind.

You think that the numbers of gay people will have changed that considerably? I think it's hard to take your questioning as legitimate when you ignore all the point put to you that prove your hypothesis wrong in order to ask something with a massive ideological bent. To be legitimately open-minded you would address the obvious points and flaws in your arguing. Instead you seem to be suggesting that something major might have happened to suddenly make more gay people be born. Or maybe you think that they 'choose' to be gay, and so when it was illegal that made less people same-sex attracted?

 

[GuruJane]

Not what was said on RN this morning. The Muslim communities in Sydney seem happy with the more consultative approach from Turnbull. The hairy chested approach of Abbott was always going to fail. Again, he was always more interested in the politics of wedging the opposition, rather than leading the country.

The real extremist tiny %age will always be the hard nut to crack. Getting the vast majority on side is surely always the most sensible way to go.

Marginalise the extremists, dont vilify the community, thats the best approach.

If you're talking about Dr Jamal Rifi then you are talking about the doctor who is notable for being the only prominent Muslim in Australia (!) who regularly denounces the Islamic state. Uncompromisingly.

But, mores the pity, Rifi is not a religious leader.
When you see any of the Imans at the Parramatta mosque, for example, coming out and denouncing Islamic terrorism and fiercely condemning ISIS then you might have a point. Better still they could be out today expressing their horror that a 15 year old member of their congregation has been brainwashed and radicalised and exhorting their members to rout the radicalisers.

But they won't. And for two reasons. One they are deeply conflicted about Islams place in a modernising world so part of them is sympathetic to the aims of the caliphate - as I explained in previous posts - and second they would be acutely aware that if they did so denounce the wrath of the radicals would be turned on them and they would be meeting allah rather more quickly than they had counted on.

In contrast, Rifi is facing death threats from the radicals but Rifi still stands up and denounces. He is the only prominent Muslim in the entire country who does this.

I don't have criticism to make of Malcolm trying the touchy feely approach, its just that I can't see it making a difference any more than than Tony's tack did for all the above reasons.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-03-...is-brave-stance-against-islamic-state/6288382

 

[Gough]

He can start by returning the traditionally conservative Muslim community to the Liberal Party fold, it was difficult too many voting for an Abbott led Liberal Party.

 

[madmug]

If you're talking about Dr Jamal Rifi then you are talking about the doctor who is notable for being the only prominent Muslim in Australia (!) who regularly denounces the Islamic state. Uncompromisingly.

But, mores the pity, Rifi is not a religious leader.
When you see any of the Imans at the Parramatta mosque, for example, coming out and denouncing Islamic terrorism and fiercely condemning ISIS then you might have a point. Better still they could be out today expressing their horror that a 15 year old member of their congregation has been brainwashed and radicalised and exhorting their members to rout the radicalisers.

But they won't. And for two reasons. One they are deeply conflicted about Islams place in a modernising world so part of them is sympathetic to the aims of the caliphate - as I explained in previous posts - and second they would be acutely aware that if they did so denounce the wrath of the radicals would be turned on them and they would be meeting allah rather more quickly than they had counted on.

In contrast, Rifi is facing death threats from the radicals but Rifi still stands up and denounces. He is the only prominent Muslim in the entire country who does this.

I don't have criticism to make of Malcolm trying the touchy feely approach, its just that I can't see it making a difference any more than than Tony's tack did for all the above reasons.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-03-...is-brave-stance-against-islamic-state/6288382

Well its no different than many/nearly all catholic priests not coming out to attack the shocking approach of George Pell & his religious organisation.

I've no doubt many are disgusted. but they do their community support work behind the scenes. They dont want division, they want a sensible outcome & support for those confused by the approach from /church/sect leaders.

I'd say most families want peace & quiet. They need help, not generalised, community wide vilification.

It may sell papers & help shock jocks, but it doesnt help communities & families.

 

[ralphmalph]

http://m.couriermail.com.au/news/op...works-in-reverse/story-fnihsr9v-1227556653725

More comedy from Rowan Dean - he believes Abbott will make a comeback.

But under what circumstances would he be able to stage a comeback? For that, we only need to look at Abbott’s own CV and personality. While there is much debate about his strengths and weaknesses as a prime minister, the one thing everybody agrees on is that he was the most formidable Opposition leader of a generation.

 

[GuruJane]

Well its no different than many/nearly all catholic priests not coming out to attack the shocking approach of George Pell & his religious organisation.

Good point. How about we have a royal commission into the mosques then?

 

[romeohwho]

Good point. How about we have a royal commission into the mosques then?

Where is the link to pedophiles and mosques?

 

[GuruJane]

Where is the link to pedophiles and mosques?

Madmug drew a comparison between the silence of Islamic Imans in the Parramatta mosque on thre question of radicalisation of teenage Muslims and George Pell/catholic[priests and paedophiles.

Presumably Madmug would therefore support a royal commission into muslim religious and mosques and the grooming into radicalisation of teenage Muslims into Isis terrorists. Sounds fair comparison.

 

[GuruJane]

Seems Billy Shorten agrees with Madmug:

Bill Shorten has condemned organisations that incite “criminal thinking” in vulnerable young people, comparing them to pedophiles who prey on Australia’s youth.
The Opposition Leader said he had “no time for organisations fermenting dangerous” ideas amid reports the 15-year-old who shot dead a police employee in Sydney on Friday attended the Parramatta Mosque before the murder, including for a service associated with the controversial political group Hizb-ut-Tahrir.

Farhad Khalil Mohammad Jabar is believed to have been radicalised through worshippers he met at the mosque where other teenagers are known to have sympathies for the terrorist group Islamic State.

Asked about the reports and if the government needed to take a new approach to this type of violent behaviour, Mr Shorten said: “If there are organisations in this country preying upon vulnerable young people, filling their heads full of murderous crazy nonsense, then those organisations are breaching their social contract with the Australian people.

“I have no time for organisations fermenting dangerous, criminal thinking in vulnerable young people. These organisations preying upon young people are a sort of political or a terrorist version of the pedophiles who prey upon young people too. It is just unacceptable.”

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/in-...-like-pedophiles/story-fnpdbcmu-1227557572080

Madmug has hit a winner looks like. Roll on the commission.

 

[romeohwho]

Madmug drew a comparison between the silence of Islamic Imans in the Parramatta mosque on thre question of radicalisation of teenage Muslims and George Pell/catholic[priests and paedophiles.

Presumably Madmug would therefore support a royal commission into muslim religious and mosques and the grooming into radicalisation of teenage Muslims into Isis terrorists. Sounds fair comparison.

How can one compare the systemic cover ups of catholic church employees with the attitude towards individual acts by random misfits within the Muslim community? The Muslim community is not complicit in these acts-the leaders of these communities condemn acts of terror, they don't hide them, or stay silent. The Catholic Church did essentially allow criminal activity to pervade the church, so of course there can be an inquiry into that.
And yep, the development of these whacko youngsters is a problem, but is a RC the answer? That is a lot of dough for a few lost souls.

 

[Ratts of Tobruk]

GI Jane comparison is of course dumb, but we already know he is one of the greatest time-wasters on here.

But to stop this conversation, here are the obvious ways why: That Royal Commission is into 'institutional responses' to child abuse within their ranks. Not into pedophilia as a crime. Victims of pedophiles can speak about their experiences. Information can be gained on the movement of those pedophiles and the administrative reactions of institutions often have records associated with them; staff to give evidence; etc. Royal Commissions are designed to glean as much information as possible in order to hopefully ensure problems do not happen again.

Victims of terrorism have little insight into the causes. Mosques frequently condemn terrorism despite the crap GI Jane is spinning above. Tony Abbott loved using RCs for political gain and didn't consider a commission into this (while the investigation into Monis somehow missed documents from his govt...).

Intelligence services, police and community consultation are the current approach and that makes sense to me.

Baiting anti-Islam feelings in society by pretending only one Muslim 'leader' speaks out consistently against Da'esh does not help these people.

 

[GuruJane]

How can one compare the systemic cover ups of catholic church employees with the attitude towards individual acts by random misfits within the Muslim community? The Muslim community is not complicit in these acts-the leaders of these communities condemn acts of terror, they don't hide them, or stay silent. The Catholic Church did essentially allow criminal activity to pervade the church, so of course there can be an inquiry into that.
And yep, the development of these whacko youngsters is a problem, but is a RC the answer? That is a lot of dough for a few lost souls.

The imans and the religious do not vehemently denounce the radicalisers in their congregations. They do not set up education programs to counter it for eg. They cover it up, for all the reasons listed in previous posts.
For heavens sake, the mosques seem to be allowing the radicalisers to groom and brainwash their teenage worshippers into committing murders.
Or do you regard Fridays murder as not a criminal matter?.

If the imans were serious they would be doing what Dr Rifi is doing - high profile denunciations.
Madmug was spot on comparing them to Pell and the priests. Just as Shorten is onto the comparison.
Keeping in mind too that Shorten gets full security briefings on these matters.

 

[romeohwho]

The imans and the religious do not vehemently denounce the radicalisers in their congregations. They do not set up education programs to counter it for eg. They cover it up, for all the reasons listed in previous posts.
For heavens sake, the mosques seem to be allowing the radicalisers to groom and brainwash their teenage worshippers into committing murders.
Or do you regard Fridays murder as not a criminal matter?.

If the imans were serious they would be doing what Dr Rifi is doing - high profile denunciations.
Madmug was spot on comparing them to Pell and the priests. Just as Shorten is onto the comparison.
Keeping in mind too that Shorten gets full security briefings on these matters.

I hear the Muslim leaders denounce radicalism all the time, so not sure why you don't hear it too.
I imagine the education about it is a matter for the Australian govt also-why is it all up to the Muslim community? They are Australian citizens- needs lot s of people working together one imagines.
Not sure where you get the idea that the mosques are allowing it- would like to see a bit more evidence for this than some random quote.
But again, whilst extremely undesirable, its made into a really big deal, when in reality, we are only speaking about a small number of people.

 

[madmug]

I hear the Muslim leaders denounce radicalism all the time, so not sure why you don't hear it too.
I imagine the education about it is a matter for the Australian govt also-why is it all up to the Muslim community? They are Australian citizens- needs lot s of people working together one imagines.
Not sure where you get the idea that the mosques are allowing it- would like to see a bit more evidence for this than some random quote.
But again, whilst extremely undesirable, its made into a really big deal, when in reality, we are only speaking about a small number of people.

You dont hear it from GI, because of political deafness. It doesnt suit the ideology.

Like I said a lot of the community leaders in both CC & Islam get about their business in the non glare of real life. They dont all have to scream from the roof tops. Some in the CC & the Islamic communities are more interested in protecting the name rather than the people. Thats the problem with types like Pell & Imams.

 

[GuruJane]

I hear the Muslim leaders denounce radicalism all the time, so not sure why you don't hear it too.

Great. Please link to the Muslim leaders who been on radio and TV denouncing the terror murder last Friday apart from Dr Rifi - and particularly highlight the denunciations from Muslim religious leaders. And particularly from the Paramatta mosque.

If you're hearing this all the time links should be no problem for you.