Opinion AUSTRALIAN Politics: Adelaide Board Discussion Part 5

[Cap]

Yep… only takes a couple.

And if you actually look into that website there is very little information about who funds it.. and it seems to be recommended by a couple of other websites.. that strangely.. use the same insignia!..

But.. This is interesting..

ttps://transsafety.network/posts/segm-uncovered/

Seems the owner of “statsforgender.org” is also involved in this group “SEGM”..

A organisation with some very murky links to christian evangelical organisations.. and receives some very large “anonymous donations”..

https://genspect.org/

Genspect is an international group founded in June 2021 by psychotherapist Stella O'Malley that describes itself as gender-critical. Genspect is known for criticizing and opposing gender-affirming care, as well as social and medical transition for transgender people.

I probably don't need to say much more

 

[Bearded Clam]

It’s clear that a handful of posters in here (thankfully not the majority) are now fully reliant on “the expert class” and have dispensed with any and all of their basic guiding moral principles.

I’ll be charitable and say: I’m pretty sure they had them at some point.

But now, they can’t think for themselves anymore and they don’t want you to either.

They can’t bring themselves to object to three-year olds being put on a “medical” path to chemical or physical castration. They need an “expert’s” approval first!

That’s where these people are at.

I’d like to say they’ve hit rock bottom, but I honestly think they’re capable of going even lower than this, if an “expert” tells them to.

Says the bloke who gets his medical advice and information from “experts” like The Joe Rogan Experience and conspiracy websites that were born out of the flat earth movement..

the bloke who just the other week in here claimed the medical industry could no longer be trusted (comment #4513 of this thread)

I think I’ll trust the medical experts that are at the coalface of this issue over some cooker muppet that posts transphobic nonsense from such reputable sources as Senator Alex Antic and the Daily Telly!..

 

[Cap]

It’s clear that a handful of posters in here (thankfully not the majority) are now fully reliant on “the expert class” and have dispensed with any and all of their basic guiding moral principles.

I’ll be charitable and say: I’m pretty sure they had them at some point.

But now, they can’t think for themselves anymore and they don’t want you to either.

They can’t bring themselves to object to three-year olds being put on a “medical” path to chemical or physical castration. They need an “expert’s” approval first!

That’s where these people are at.

I’d like to say they’ve hit rock bottom, but I honestly think they’re capable of going even lower than this, if an “expert” tells them to.

I'm sure the Super Duper truth team will like hard on this mess of a post.

But you lecturing people on moral principles is like Bruce Lehrmann lecturing people on consent.

 

[Cap]

Another take on property

'A quarter of a trillion dollar mistake': New report highlights massive cost of private housing handouts

The federal budget is expected to lose almost a quarter of a trillion dollars to negative gearing and capital gains tax concessions between 2010-33.

www.crikey.com.au

 

[kirky]

But you are dumbing down what is an incredibly complex issue..

And its not a new issue.. I still remember watching a 60 Minutes episode decades ago that interviewed parents with children who had been born with both male and female sexual organs.. or “intersex”..

This is more common that you’d think.. around 1.7% of births.

At that time it was simply left up to the doctors to make the decision just after birth to decide which sex the child would be and they’d operate to remove the unwanted organs..

Then 2 or 3 years later the parents of these toddlers started noticing things.. their boy prefered playing with dolls instead of monster trucks or their little girl loved GI Joe instead of Barbie.. thats dumming it down but you get the picture.

Basically..

The doctors had fuxxked up and chosen the wrong organs to remove and thus sex for the intersex child.

But the point is that we are all in here commenting on this subject and none of us has any experience dealing with this complex issue and some of the s**t behind all of it..

Some of us are going further and are clearly triggered that these kids and their families are being provided assistance..

as if this is a bad thing..

Some of us think its none of our fxxkn business and we should leave these decisions up to the children, their families and their health care providers..

Think my head has exploded with the - “born with both male and female sexual organs”.

So many questions but I’ll let this topic pass.

Agree with the leave it to the families and medical providers.

 

[Slippery Pete]

the bloke who just the other week in here claimed the medical industry could no longer be trusted (comment #4513 of this thread)

Not when it comes to advice on Covid vaccines, no.

And not when it comes to advice from ideologically captured operatives within the industry who believe toddlers can or should transition their sex.

Neither of these statements are controversial, they’re not from any podcast, or right-wing politicians, they’re views I and the majority of Australians hold.

 

[Slippery Pete]

Maddogmetro instead of lurking do you want to run a poll on the issue of toddlers transitioning?

You seem to think most people agree with the “experts,” so let’s put it to the test?

 

[Crow till I die]

Maddogmetro instead of lurking do you want to run a poll on the issue of toddlers transitioning?

You seem to think most people agree with the “experts,” so let’s put it to the test?

He usually scuttles in, drops a stinky and scuttles off

 

[Slippery Pete]

He usually scuttles in, drops a stinky and scuttles off

Do you have any peer-reviewed studies behind that meme?

Did any experts who want to chemically castrate children approve of you posting that?

If not, then how can I take you seriously?

 

[Bearded Clam]

Not when it comes to advice on Covid vaccines, no.

And not when it comes to advice from ideologically captured operatives within the industry who believe toddlers can or should transition their sex.

Neither of these statements are controversial, they’re not from any podcast, or right-wing politicians, they’re views I and the majority of Australians hold.

So.. are you saying you trust the science behind medicine..

Until a politician, a conspiracy website or a political culture war warrior convinces you that you shouldnt..

Science doesnt work like that I’m afraid.. you cant just cherry pick bits that suit your political leanings..

Science can only be refuted with more rigourous science.. not by ignorance.

And.. Hate to tell you but your claim that the “majority of Australians” dont hold these views..

For a start.. the majority of eligible Australians (up around 94%) went and got vaccinated against covid at the height of the covid crisis..

Only tiny minority of cookers, like you, instead chose to put their faith in charlitans and scumbags who convinced them that it was all one big scam..

 

[Bearded Clam]

Maddogmetro instead of lurking do you want to run a poll on the issue of toddlers transitioning?

You seem to think most people agree with the “experts,” so let’s put it to the test?

Yeah..

Im sure thats exactly what the parents of these young children want..

A poll held to give pathetic scumbags the opportunity to have a say on their children genitals..

I’m sure they’d be thrilled..

how about this…
the knuckle draggers in this country just mind their own business..

 

[Slippery Pete]

So.. are you saying you trust the science behind medicine..

Until a politician, a conspiracy website or a political culture war warrior convinces you that you shouldnt..

No, Clam. I have already explained this.

Each piece of medical advice on its merits, with the knowledge that:

a) not all experts agree.
b)you know your medical history better than anyone
c)it is not without precedent for medical bureaucracies & the pharmaceutical industry to be ideologically or financially captured.

If you were able to think for yourself occasionally, you’d realize that those points are not even remotely controversial.

For a start.. the majority of eligible Australians (up around 94%) went and got vaccinated against covid at the height of the covid crisis..

When you threaten people with their livelihoods, you can get them to do a fair bit.

You know as well as I do this isn’t even close to the number who actually wanted to take it.

Now that there are no consequences for rejecting it, hardly anybody is taking it, including in the cohorts where it is explicitly recommended.

So yes, the trust (in that realm at least) is largely gone, thanks to not only idiotic public health authorities but also people like you who cheered on their idiocy.

 

[Slippery Pete]

Yeah..

Im sure thats exactly what the parents of these young children want..

A poll held to give pathetic scumbags the opportunity to have a say on their children genitals..

I’m sure they’d be thrilled..

how about this…
the knuckle draggers in this country just mind their own business..

Just admit you’d lose the poll because you’re completely out of touch with reality

 

[Doctor B]

Some quotes from the article causing the confected rage.

Children as young as three offered gender affirming care in Melbourne

Psychiatrists and specialist gender identity clinicians will work alongside children aged three to 17 as long as they have a referral from a GP.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Treatments for young children who are yet to reach puberty 'focus on gender affirmation' and 'talking to the child and their family', as well as ensuring adequate support is in place both at school and at home.

As children age and reach puberty, the Royal Children's Hospital Gender Service has a broader range of treatments available.

The first step, known as 'stage 1', is to introduce puberty blockers - a reversible step available to children in the early stages of puberty.

Later, around the age of 16, the clinic is able to move onto 'stage 2', which involves using 'gender-affirming hormones (oestrogen or testosterone) to change the body to be more consistent with the teenager's affirmed gender'.

The final stage, surgery, is generally not undertaken until adulthood.

Children under the age of 16 require a parent to attend appointments with them.

 

[Slippery Pete]

Treatments for young children who are yet to reach puberty 'focus on gender affirmation'

That one line is more than enough for genuine outrage, “Doctor.”

 

[BRL121]

Some quotes from the article causing the confected rage.

Children as young as three offered gender affirming care in Melbourne

Psychiatrists and specialist gender identity clinicians will work alongside children aged three to 17 as long as they have a referral from a GP.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Treatments for young children who are yet to reach puberty 'focus on gender affirmation' and 'talking to the child and their family', as well as ensuring adequate support is in place both at school and at home.

As children age and reach puberty, the Royal Children's Hospital Gender Service has a broader range of treatments available.

The first step, known as 'stage 1', is to introduce puberty blockers - a reversible step available to children in the early stages of puberty.

Later, around the age of 16, the clinic is able to move onto 'stage 2', which involves using 'gender-affirming hormones (oestrogen or testosterone) to change the body to be more consistent with the teenager's affirmed gender'.

The final stage, surgery, is generally not undertaken until adulthood.

Children under the age of 16 require a parent to attend appointments with them.

I think "preferred" is more appropriate than "affirmed".

 

[arrowman]

Yep dredging up international news with no care to even check.

A Whistleblower’s Claims About a St. Louis Transgender Center Are Under Fire

Jamie Reed’s shocking account of a clinic mistreating children went viral. Parents and patients are now refuting her key claims.

nymag.com

Such a bore.

A Whistleblower’s Claims About a St. Louis Transgender Center Are Under Fire

Jamie Reed’s shocking account of a clinic mistreating children went viral. Parents and patients are now refuting her key claims.

nymag.com

Seems many of the parents of kids treated at the same clinic dont share Jamie’s opinion or side of the story..

(Let's quietly skim over the fact that arrowman cited a lefty woman who is partnered with a trans person, as refutation for the claim that this is all a right wing political thing.)

I'll see your nymag and raise you an NYT. The NYT article is paywalled, but cited here:

New York Times Confirms St. Louis Gender Clinic Whistleblower’s Claim That Adolescents Were Rushed into ‘Affirming’ Care | National Review

‘With its psychologists overbooked, the clinic relied on external therapists, some with little experience in gender issues,’ the Times reported.

www.nationalreview.com

Speaking with patients, employees, local health-care providers, and parents, the Times investigation corroborated many of Reed’s central allegations, most notably that a substantial number of adolescent patients were prescribed testosterone treatments before their underlying mental-health issues were addressed. Moreover, the St. Louis clinic exhibited a categoric lack of record-keeping and patient tracking.

Desperately scouring the world to find one dissenting voice from someone on the inside that supports you’re side of the arguement and going
“See, see, see…. This person on the other side of the world that worked with these kids in one clinic said this!”
As if that one persons experience and comments instantly justifies your right to write all other efforts to help these children out off..

It's a lot more than one, and I think you know that.

As for "other side of the world" - yes, it is relevant because the belief system (gender affirming care) is the same.

How about you arrowman..
how many of these Aussie kids have you met?..
how many of them and their families have you spoken to?..

I'll answer that honestly - none. I've just read lots of stuff from child development experts and other medical professionals, detransitioners, etc. Which is as much as any of us can do.

 

[arrowman]

Treatments for young children who are yet to reach puberty 'focus on gender affirmation' and 'talking to the child and their family', as well as ensuring adequate support is in place both at school and at home.

Just a reminder that "young children who are yet to reach puberty" includes 3 year olds.

puberty blockers - a reversible step

Bzzzt. Wrong.

Oh sure, you can apply puberty blockers for a limited time and then stop, but the practical reality is that the great majority of patients progress to:

Later, around the age of 16, the clinic is able to move onto 'stage 2', which involves using 'gender-affirming hormones (oestrogen or testosterone) to change the body to be more consistent with the teenager's affirmed gender'.

- Having missed a crucial process in the development / maturation of their bodies and brains; the consequences of which will be with them for life.

 

[arrowman]

For pre-pubertal gender diverse children, assistance is provided to develop gender affirming environments both at home and at school.

And that is not a neutral intervention. It's the start of the transition pathway.

 

[arrowman]

Firstly, society needs to do better by trans kids, and as a general rule of thumb people need to stop being c***s to others who are different to them, basically.

Address this, and I’m sure it will reduce some of the pressure these kids feel to ask for radical physical changes to their biology at such a young age, just to ‘fit in’.

Well, define "trans kids" for a start. Certainly gender non-conforming kids (i.e. effeminate boys, butch girls) can be treated badly, especially by homophobes. The real problem, though, is the activists telling them (and indeed their parents) that there is something wrong with their body.

However, we know there are psychiatrically extremely unwell kids with gender dysphoria and that this occurs at a much higher rate than the general population. Some of these attempt suicide, some on multiple occasions, some succeed. For the small number of kids in this situation and their parents, I can understand the rationale for wanting to explore medical care including transition as a last resort if this is driving the distress and mortal danger that they might be in.

The problem, in a lot of cases, is that kids expressing gender dysphoria (or a version of body dysmorphia) often have complex mental health comorbidities and their attempts at self-harm can have more to do with those other issues than "being trans".

The "affirmation" / "believe the child" model does not allow for this - at least, not in the hands of some clinicians. And especially when those clinicians (in particular, therapists / psychiatrists) are under legal threat for practicing "conversion therapy" if they don't unquestioningly affirm.

 

[arrowman]

Health of people with intersex variations

Intersex people are born with both female and male biological attributes. Intersex variations are natural biological variations and occur in up to 1.7 per cent of births. Health services should understand what intersex is.

www.health.vic.gov.au

Intersex variation

Intersex variations are caused by physical, hormonal or chromosomal differences. Learn more about intersex variation and what causes it here.

www.healthdirect.gov.au

Whats not true about it?..

Even the government stated the figure is around 1.7%..

You are conflating chromosomal / hormonal abnormalities with abnormalities of the external genitalia.

Yes, the incidence of DSDs is about 1.7%. And in the vast majority of cases, those people are unambiguously male or female. The real incidence of cases where there is genuine ambiguity (in the external genitalia, at least) is more like 0.018%.

Anyway, none of that has anything to do with being transgender, and it's an insult to people with DSDs to conflate the two.

 

[Slippery Pete]

But an actual clinic whose only means of making money is to milk their clients are going to be less likely to diagnose a kid as being a general kid.

The medical fraternity is never compromised in this way, according to Clam & Cap.

You can always trust “the experts.”

 

[Crow till I die]

The medical fraternity is never compromised in this way, according to Clam & Cap.

You can always trust “the experts.”

2 weeks to slow the spread
Get the shot and you can't pass Covid on
Safe and effective

no idea why you would not trust the experts?

 

[Slippery Pete]

2 weeks to slow the spread
Get the shot and you can't pass Covid on
Safe and effective

no idea why you would not trust the experts?

”95% effective”

'The most vulnerable people are protected': Pfizer vaccine 95 per cent effective

Pfizer reports an increase in the effectiveness of its coronavirus vaccine, noting that results in the most at risk group are very promising.

www.abc.net.au

 

[Crow till I die]

”95% effective”

'The most vulnerable people are protected': Pfizer vaccine 95 per cent effective

Pfizer reports an increase in the effectiveness of its coronavirus vaccine, noting that results in the most at risk group are very promising.

www.abc.net.au

"The science is settled"