Opinion AUSTRALIAN Politics: Adelaide Board Discussion Part 5

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Jesus what did I miss?

Having done no background research into this issue. The answer is simple for me anyway.

Parents, politicians, teachers, activists should just let kids be kids and only worry about medical / mental health intervention if there are genuine requirements due to worrying behaviour such as self-harm or the harming of others. Kids should only be focused on their schooling. I would have thought gender affirming care is not a high priority for any child under 10, like at all. Any parent or clinic encouraging such decisions perhaps dont have the kids interest at heart as much as they think they do.
 
adelaidecrows said:
Jesus what did I miss?

Having done no background research into this issue. The answer is simple for me anyway.

Parents, politicians, teachers, activists should just let kids be kids and only worry about medical / mental health intervention if there are genuine requirements due to worrying behaviour such as self-harm or the harming of others. Kids should only be focused on their schooling. I would have thought gender affirming care is not a high priority for any child under 10, like at all. Any parent or clinic encouraging such decisions perhaps dont have the kids interest at heart as much as they think they do.
Click to expand...
Yep.. of course we should.. thats exactly what I do with my two lads..

But if parents do have concerns about their children..
Shouldnt they also be able to meet with doctors and psycologists to discuss these concerns?…

What sort of country would we be if we simply said to these parents…

“you got concerns have you?.. well too fxxkn bad.. sort it out yourself… us giving your children help might make some bigots in the community upset.. so suck it up, ignore it and keep sending them off to school”

Anyone know what the suicide rate is amoungst these children/young adulscents?
 

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Bearded Clam said:
Yep.. of course we should.. thats exactly what I do with my two lads..

But if parents do have concerns about their children..
Shouldnt they also be able to meet with doctors and psycologists to discuss these concerns?…

What sort of country would we be if we simply said to these parents…

“you got concerns have you?.. well too fxxkn bad.. sort it out yourself… us giving your children help might make some bigots in the community upset.. so suck it up, ignore it and keep sending them off to school”

Anyone know what the suicide rate is amoungst these children/young adulscents?
Click to expand...
Amongst 3 and 4 year olds - suicide rate you ask?

I am guessing a few kids might be toilet trained by then and some 'may' be able to bath themselves. But having the wits and control of their thoughts to think about killing themselves because they grabbed a G I Joe figure to play with? - you tell us the suicide rate for pre pubescent kids
 
Bearded Clam said:
Yep.. of course we should.. thats exactly what I do with my two lads..

But if parents do have concerns about their children..
Shouldnt they also be able to meet with doctors and psycologists to discuss these concerns?…

What sort of country would we be if we simply said to these parents…

“you got concerns have you?.. well too fxxkn bad.. sort it out yourself… us giving your children help might make some bigots in the community upset.. so suck it up, ignore it and keep sending them off to school”

Anyone know what the suicide rate is amoungst these children/young adulscents?
Click to expand...


pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Suicidality Among Transgender Youth: Elucidating the Role of Interpersonal Risk Factors - PubMed

Data indicate that 82% of transgender individuals have considered killing themselves and 40% have attempted suicide, with suicidality highest among transgender youth. Using minority stress theory and the interpersonal theory of suicide, this study aims to better understand suicide risk among...
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


Data indicate that 82% of transgender individuals have considered killing themselves and 40% have attempted suicide, with suicidality highest among transgender youth.


From the Melbourne RCH website.

Children under 8 years​

The initial consultation for children 8 years and under will entail a review by a psychologist or child psychiatrist. They may be referred later to a paediatrician who specialises in adolescent medicine and gender diversity if required.

​

Children and Adolescents 8-16 years​

Assessment and Support​

​

The initial consultation is the entry point into service for children 8 years and adolescents up to their 16th birthday. This is a one off consultation with the Gender Service clinical nurse consultant or one of our adolescent medicine doctors.

This initial consultation will involve an assessment that will allow the Gender Service team to provide you and your child or adolescent with information regarding the service. As an outcome of this assessment you will be provided recommendations to the relevant supports that are available within the Royal Children’s Hospital and external community organisations.


Treatment​



Treatment provided by the Gender Service involves development of a comprehensive management plan made in collaboration with the child or adolescent and their family.



Following your initial assessment you will be offered four appointments with a child and adolescent clinical psychologist or psychiatrist and then a paediatrician both of whom specialise in gender identity.

For pre-pubertal gender diverse children, assistance is provided to develop gender affirming environments both at home and at school.


Australian standards of care and treatment guidelines for transgender and gender diverse children and adolescents




​

 
Bearded Clam said:
Yep.. of course we should.. thats exactly what I do with my two lads..

But if parents do have concerns about their children..
Shouldnt they also be able to meet with doctors and psycologists to discuss these concerns?…

What sort of country would we be if we simply said to these parents…

“you got concerns have you?.. well too fxxkn bad.. sort it out yourself… us giving your children help might make some bigots in the community upset.. so suck it up, ignore it and keep sending them off to school”

Anyone know what the suicide rate is amoungst these children/young adulscents?
Click to expand...

Of course if you have a concern you can seek help. No one is saying otherwise.
 
Crow till I die said:
Amongst 3 and 4 year olds - suicide rate you ask?

I am guessing a few kids might be toilet trained by then and some 'may' be able to bath themselves. But having the wits and control of their thoughts to think about killing themselves because they grabbed a G I Joe figure to play with? - you tell us the suicide rate for pre pubescent kids
Click to expand...

I would have thought it is extremely common for boys and girls from ages 2-4 to think of themselves as the opposite sex at some stage. Most will grow out of it when placed in school and kindy. Not sure you need to run to a psych for it. Maybe if its something they don't grow out of. But gender affirming care decisions should not be placed on minors.
 
So Dan Andrews has set up 2 companies and involves a Chinese government advisor who went with him on his trips to China, including the last one where he wouldn’t let the media go with him. I’m sure the business have nothing to do with this government funded secret trip and it’s all above board.
 
adelaidecrows said:
Im not a rocket scientist but wouldn't a spending increase by those who've received tax cuts result in upward pressure being placed on the cost of living and it will only drive inflation up?

Tax cuts are great but will count for naught by those who are stupid with money.
Click to expand...
Depends on whether the underlying reasons behind the inflation was due to rampant spending pushing up prices and thus the inflation figures or its supply chain issues that have resulted in low supplies of goods that is doing it or its a bit of both..

I’d have my money on it being a bit of both..

Aussies have been spending like drunken sailors since covid lockdowns and restrictions ended and, at the same time, the world has experienced extreme supply chain issues..

If those supply chain issues have abated.. then providing some COL relief to Aussies will have some upward effect on inflation but not as big an effect as may be feared..

We’ll have to wait and see I guess.. currently most economists are predicting interest rate cuts later this year..
 
For what it’s worth, my non-expert 2 cents and then I’ll shut up about it.

Firstly, society needs to do better by trans kids, and as a general rule of thumb people need to stop being c***s to others who are different to them, basically.

Address this, and I’m sure it will reduce some of the pressure these kids feel to ask for radical physical changes to their biology at such a young age, just to ‘fit in’.

Secondly, for the vast majority of people with gender dysphoria I would have thought any irreversible decisions around surgery or hormone therapy should be held off until adulthood.

However, we know there are psychiatrically extremely unwell kids with gender dysphoria and that this occurs at a much higher rate than the general population. Some of these attempt suicide, some on multiple occasions, some succeed. For the small number of kids in this situation and their parents, I can understand the rationale for wanting to explore medical care including transition as a last resort if this is driving the distress and mortal danger that they might be in.

Discounting this is irrational and shows a lack empathy.

It highlights that there are benefits and harms on both sides of the equation that need to be carefully weighed up, and that case by case assessments probably require a level of nuance, expertise and insight into this area that is way outside of my wheelhouse (and I would hazard a guess the vast majority of people commenting on this), and should be left in the hands of a multidisciplinary team of experts including mental health clinicians, paediatricians, endocrinologists, etc.

Thirdly, the discussion on this subject is flooded with hyperbole from the opinionated and uninformed. It would help I think if there was more concrete data on what is actually happening in this space - to better inform people about both the issue itself, how healthcare is actually provided to this group, and evaluation of patient outcomes.

“Surveys of Australian trans and non-binary youth have shown that between 82-92% report they have experienced suicidal thoughts at some point in their lives, 68-86% have ever self-harmed, and 35-48% have attempted suicide (3, 4).”

“The higher prevalence of mental ill-health and suicide risk in trans and gender-diverse young people is likely due to a combination of factors. Among the most significant of these relates to experiences of discrimination, abuse, bullying and harassment. Indeed, more than 70% of trans and gender-diverse Australian young people report they have experienced verbal harassment based on their gender identity (4). These experiences may have a direct impact on psychological distress and suicide risk: the Trans Pathways survey identified that young trans people who had self-harmed or attempted suicide in the past were significantly more likely than those who hadn’t to report experiences of bullying, rejection by peers, abuse by both family and non-family members, and discrimination (3).”
Click to expand...
 
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Bearded Clam said:
Depends on whether the underlying reasons behind the inflation was due to rampant spending pushing up prices and thus the inflation figures or its supply chain issues that have resulted in low supplies of goods that is doing it or its a bit of both..

I’d have my money on it being a bit of both..

Aussies have been spending like drunken sailors since covid lockdowns and restrictions ended and, at the same time, the world has experienced extreme supply chain issues..

If those supply chain issues have abated.. then providing some COL relief to Aussies will have some upward effect on inflation but not as big an effect as may be feared..

We’ll have to wait and see I guess.. currently most economists are predicting interest rate cuts later this year..
Click to expand...
There's also been a 3rd factor - profiteering by major companies, price gouging, jacking their prices through the roof under the cover of inflation to an extent that far exceeds their rising costs.

There's an old saying "never waste a good crisis". Companies like Coles & Woolworths have been making the absolute most out of this one - and they are far from alone in doing so.
 
Vader said:
There's also been a 3rd factor - profiteering by major companies, price gouging, jacking their prices through the roof under the cover of inflation to an extent that far exceeds their rising costs.

There's an old saying "never waste a good crisis". Companies like Coles & Woolworths have been making the absolute most out of this one - and they are far from alone in doing so.
Click to expand...

Yep and watch for price increases when the tax cuts come in.
 
adelaidecrows said:
I would have thought it is extremely common for boys and girls from ages 2-4 to think of themselves as the opposite sex at some stage. Most will grow out of it when placed in school and kindy. Not sure you need to run to a psych for it. Maybe if its something they don't grow out of. But gender affirming care decisions should not be placed on minors.
Click to expand...
But you are dumbing down what is an incredibly complex issue..

And its not a new issue.. I still remember watching a 60 Minutes episode decades ago that interviewed parents with children who had been born with both male and female sexual organs.. or “intersex”..

This is more common that you’d think.. around 1.7% of births.

At that time it was simply left up to the doctors to make the decision just after birth to decide which sex the child would be and they’d operate to remove the unwanted organs..

Then 2 or 3 years later the parents of these toddlers started noticing things.. their boy prefered playing with dolls instead of monster trucks or their little girl loved GI Joe instead of Barbie.. thats dumming it down but you get the picture.

Basically..

The doctors had fuxxked up and chosen the wrong organs to remove and thus sex for the intersex child.

But the point is that we are all in here commenting on this subject and none of us has any experience dealing with this complex issue and some of the shit behind all of it..

Some of us are going further and are clearly triggered that these kids and their families are being provided assistance..

as if this is a bad thing..

Some of us think its none of our fxxkn business and we should leave these decisions up to the children, their families and their health care providers..
 
Bearded Clam said:
But you are dumbing down what is an incredibly complex issue..

And its not a new issue.. I still remember watching a 60 Minutes episode decades ago that interviewed parents with children who had been born with both male and female sexual organs.. or “intersex”..

This is more common that you’d think.. around 1.7% of births.

At that time it was simply left up to the doctors to make the decision just after birth to decide which sex the child would be and they’d operate to remove the unwanted organs..

Then 2 or 3 years later the parents of these toddlers started noticing things.. their boy prefered playing with dolls instead of monster trucks or their little girl loved GI Joe instead of Barbie.. thats dumming it down but you get the picture.

Basically..

The doctors had fuxxked up and chosen the wrong organs to remove and thus sex for the intersex child.

But the point is that we are all in here commenting on this subject and none of us has any experience dealing with this complex issue and some of the s**t behind all of it..

Some of us are going further and are clearly triggered that these kids and their families are being provided assistance..

as if this is a bad thing..

Some of us think its none of our fxxkn business and we should leave these decisions up to the children, their families and their health care providers..
Click to expand...

Not dumbing it down at all. Obviously go see a psych if needed. But you have to ask, how many parents are going because of new age parenting more than actual genuine need.

The thing that concerns me is specialised gender affirming clinics. Dont get me wrong, I have no doubt they genuinely help some kids. But 100 clinics in the USA? 365m people population. thats 365,000 population per clinic. A third of that; 122 thousand are kids. Yet statistically over 10% of kids identify as a different gender.

Two things we know with kids. They jump on trends it is 100% cool to be different these days and they are open to manipulation.

These clinics need to make money to survive. Doctors are just as prone to the powers of money as everyone else. If these kids were going to a traditional GP then a private psych etc I wouldn't be sceptical. But an actual clinic whose only means of making money is to milk their clients are going to be less likely to diagnose a kid as being a general kid.
 
arrowman said:
Yeah, that's not true.
Click to expand...

Health of people with intersex variations

Intersex people are born with both female and male biological attributes. Intersex variations are natural biological variations and occur in up to 1.7 per cent of births. Health services should understand what intersex is.
www.health.vic.gov.au www.health.vic.gov.au

www.healthdirect.gov.au

Intersex variation

Intersex variations are caused by physical, hormonal or chromosomal differences. Learn more about intersex variation and what causes it here.
www.healthdirect.gov.au www.healthdirect.gov.au

Whats not true about it?..

Even the government stated the figure is around 1.7%..
 
arrowman said:
Yeah, that's not true.
Click to expand...
A cursory look on Google it's a number that's pretty much accepted by most places.

Except people that oppose gender affirming care of course

But I'm genuinely curious, you seem pretty normal outside for fixation on this particular topic.

How many hours have you spent on this topic ?
Bearded Clam said:

Health of people with intersex variations

Intersex people are born with both female and male biological attributes. Intersex variations are natural biological variations and occur in up to 1.7 per cent of births. Health services should understand what intersex is.
www.health.vic.gov.au www.health.vic.gov.au

Whats not true about it?..

Even the government stated the figure is around 1.7%..
Click to expand...
Check this shit out


I thought, that's an interesting site. But have a read. Tell me how many topics you read before you start to wonder
 
Bearded Clam said:
But you are dumbing down what is an incredibly complex issue..

And its not a new issue.. I still remember watching a 60 Minutes episode decades ago that interviewed parents with children who had been born with both male and female sexual organs.. or “intersex”..

This is more common that you’d think.. around 1.7% of births.

At that time it was simply left up to the doctors to make the decision just after birth to decide which sex the child would be and they’d operate to remove the unwanted organs..

Then 2 or 3 years later the parents of these toddlers started noticing things.. their boy prefered playing with dolls instead of monster trucks or their little girl loved GI Joe instead of Barbie.. thats dumming it down but you get the picture.

Basically..

The doctors had fuxxked up and chosen the wrong organs to remove and thus sex for the intersex child.

But the point is that we are all in here commenting on this subject and none of us has any experience dealing with this complex issue and some of the s**t behind all of it..

Some of us are going further and are clearly triggered that these kids and their families are being provided assistance..

as if this is a bad thing..

Some of us think its none of our fxxkn business and we should leave these decisions up to the children, their families and their health care providers..
Click to expand...
I don't think anyone would disagree on that, but hermaphrodites are a specific case, distinct from the mental stuff talked about here prior to this point.
 
adelaidecrows said:
The thing that concerns me is specialised gender affirming clinics. Dont get me wrong, I have no doubt they genuinely help some kids. But 100 clinics in the USA? 365m people population. thats 365,000 population per clinic. A third of that; 122 thousand are kids. Yet statistically over 10% of kids identify as a different gender.
Click to expand...
You might want to check your maths - you're off by an order of magnitude. 365M / 100 = 3.65M (not 365K). That's roughly 1 clinic for a population the size of Melbourne.
 
It’s clear that a handful of posters in here (thankfully not the majority) are now fully reliant on “the expert class” and have dispensed with any and all of their basic guiding moral principles.

I’ll be charitable and say: I’m pretty sure they had them at some point.

But now, they can’t think for themselves anymore and they don’t want you to either.

They can’t bring themselves to object to three-year olds being put on a “medical” path to chemical or physical castration. They need an “expert’s” approval first!

That’s where these people are at.

I’d like to say they’ve hit rock bottom, but I honestly think they’re capable of going even lower than this, if an “expert” tells them to.
 
Cap said:
A cursory look on Google it's a number that's pretty much accepted by most places.

Except people that oppose gender affirming care of course

But I'm genuinely curious, you seem pretty normal outside for fixation on this particular topic.

How many hours have you spent on this topic ?

Check this s**t out


I thought, that's an interesting site. But have a read. Tell me how many topics you read before you start to wonder
Click to expand...
Yep… only takes a couple.

And if you actually look into that website there is very little information about who funds it.. and it seems to be recommended by a couple of other websites.. that strangely.. use the same insignia!..

But.. This is interesting..

ttps://transsafety.network/posts/segm-uncovered/

Seems the owner of “statsforgender.org” is also involved in this group “SEGM”..

A organisation with some very murky links to christian evangelical organisations.. and receives some very large “anonymous donations”..
 
ADL9798 said:
However, we know there are psychiatrically extremely unwell kids with gender dysphoria and that this occurs at a much higher rate than the general population. Some of these attempt suicide, some on multiple occasions, some succeed. For the small number of kids in this situation and their parents, I can understand the rationale for wanting to explore medical care including transition as a last resort if this is driving the distress and mortal danger that they might be in.

Discounting this is irrational and shows a lack empathy.
Click to expand...

What if the source of this extreme distress was “racial dysphoria” and the child thought, for example, that he or she was a black person stuck in a white person’s body?

Would you counsel him to seek a “medical transition” to being black? Have his skin dyed, his features changed?

He identifes as a black person after all, so why not?

Or would you perhaps realize that the child has mental issues that need addressing — & make every effort to support him through that while also establishing that his race is inherent, it’s not changeable, or negotiable, and he must come to accept the race he is.

If this example sounds absurd to you, that’s because it is. It is as absurd as facilitating a change of sex.

In fact, it’s a little less absurd, because your race is much less of a defining and significant human characteristic than your sex.
 
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