Europe Backdrop to the war in Ukraine

[Gethelred]

This is the thread for the geopolitics, history and framework around the Russia-Ukraine conflict. If you want to discuss the events of the war, head over to this thread:

Europe - War in Ukraine - Thread 4 - thread rules updated

This is the thread for discussing the War in Ukraine. Should you want to discuss the geopolitics, the history, or an interesting tangent, head over here: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/backdrop-to-the-war-in-ukraine.1302028/ If a post isn't directly concerning the events of the war or...

www.bigfooty.com

 

[IlovethePies]

i never said the war crimes were genocide, merely that that are propaganda ( both for Russia and against Ukraine)

But you do you. As I said I just hope when this is done people like you are made accountable. Being a useful idiot shouldn't be an excuse anymore

But, who decides whether they were actually "spreading Russian propaganda" or merely puncturing the official US/NATO propaganda narrative?

Because there are many useful idiots spreading US imperialism propaganda out there, and if the ultimate winner is not the NATO/US war criminals, then the useful idiots on your side of the river might be held accountable.

 

[Cap]

But, who decides whether they were actually "spreading Russian propaganda" or merely puncturing the official US/NATO propaganda narrative?

that sounds like something someone who spreads Russian propaganda would say

Honestly, i don't even know what puncturing NATO propaganda even means, most things we know about Russia come feom Russia its self (how its media literally tell us what they wamt to do with Ukraine) and countries that aren't or weren't part of Russia.

Edit - that was meant to say werent or aren't part of Nato

Because there are many useful idiots spreading US imperialism propaganda out there, and if the ultimate winner is not the NATO/US war criminals, then the useful idiots on your side of the river might be held accountable.

absolutely they will. They already do it now so i won't be suprised if they keep killing people who write this critical of them.

 

[IlovethePies]

Honestly, i don't even know what puncturing NATO propaganda even means, most things we know about Russia come feom Russia its self (how its media literally tell us what they wamt to do with Ukraine) and countries that aren't or weren't part of Russia.

Yes, Russian propaganda certainly exists as well, and is equally duplicitous as the US/NATO propaganda.
Everything you know about Russia comes from the US, or pro US/NATO media sources (that includes the ABC here in Australia), and Russian propaganda.

If you already agree with the US/NATO propaganda, it is very easy to reject the Russian propaganda
But the issue is, rejecting the Russian propaganda is just one side of a coin.

If you don/t have an alternative framework to analyse reality, then by rejecting Russian propaganda you just end up accepting the US/NATO propaganda (ie, the war began when Russia invaded Ukraine (there were no historical reasons leading up to it), the only reason Russia invaded was because Putin is a megalomaniac who wants to conquer the world.... blah....blah....blah).

 

[Cap]

Yes, Russian propaganda certainly exists as well, and is equally duplicitous as the US/NATO propaganda.
Everything you know about Russia comes from the US, or pro US/NATO media sources (that includes the ABC here in Australia), and Russian propaganda.

No, I've watched interviews with leaders and commentators from eastern europe and places surrounding Russia, i have friends from places like Denmark, Norway and Sweeden who have to live with Russia as a neighbour.

If you already agree with the US/NATO propaganda, it is very easy to reject the Russian propaganda
But the issue is, rejecting the Russian propaganda is just one side of a coin.

I've never said there isn't propaganda on both sides, merely pointed out that something can be true and be propaganda



This is anti Russian propaganda, but this is also true and actually happened.

If you don/t have an alternative framework to analyse reality, then by rejecting Russian propaganda you just end up accepting the US/NATO propaganda (ie, the war began when Russia invaded Ukraine (there were no historical reasons leading up to it), the only reason Russia invaded was because Putin is a megalomaniac who wants to conquer the world.... blah....blah....blah).

sure, some people might believe the war started at that point.

Others might also have fallen for the NATO expansion rubbish.

Putin probably doesn't want to take over the world, but he is a brutual dictator hellbent on restoring what he sees as Russias rightful place as a world power by any means he can.

You only need to listen to him to understand what he wants.

 

[IlovethePies]

No, I've watched interviews with leaders and commentators from eastern europe and places surrounding Russia, i have friends from places like Denmark, Norway and Sweeden who have to live with Russia as a neighbour.

I've never said there isn't propaganda on both sides, merely pointed out that something can be true and be propaganda



This is anti Russian propaganda, but this is also true and actually happened.

sure, some people might believe the war started at that point.

Others might also have fallen for the NATO expansion rubbish.

Putin probably doesn't want to take over the world, but he is a brutual dictator hellbent on restoring what he sees as Russias rightful place as a world power by any means he can.

You only need to listen to him to understand what he wants.

It would also be possible to search pro Russian twitter accounts/blogs etc and find war crimes that Ukrainian forces (such as Azov batallion neo Nazis) have committed against captured Russian soldiers, as well as against the ethnic Russian population in the Donbass.

All of this proves nothing, and leads to a tit for tat argument that clarifies no one.

To understand what is happening in Russia and Ukraine right now, it is necessary to review the history leading up to Putin's invasion of Ukraine.

And a history recounted not from the standpoint either of US imperialism, nor of the reactionary capitalist Putin regime.

A history that is analysed from the standpoint of the international working class, because the interests of the working class are utterly opposed to those of both US imperialism and Putin.

 

[Cap]

It would also be possible to search pro Russian twitter accounts/blogs etc and find war crimes that Ukrainian forces (such as Azov batallion neo Nazis) have committed against captured Russian soldiers, as well as against the ethnic Russian population in the Donbass.

I'm sure, to get to the point you are, you already have.

I mean you are still on the whole Nazi thing, even when literal Nazis are fighting for Russia.

All of this proves nothing, and leads to a tit for tat argument that clarifies no one.

It proves that anti Russian propaganda can be and in many cases is true and you can't always psuh back with, but Azov Nazis !!!!

To understand what is happening in Russia and Ukraine right now, it is necessary to review the history leading up to Putin's invasion of Ukraine.

Yes, even then Putin decided to go an invade his neighbour unprovoked.

Don't get me wrong, you'll make up lots of reasons that tell us he was provoked. But all them make Putin look even worse than he does now.

And a history recounted not from the standpoint either of US imperialism, nor of the reactionary capitalist Putin regime.

Yes, the answer to everything US imperialism.

i can justify this war because Ukraine wasn't an independent nation, it was under the thumb of the US.

How convenient

A history that is analysed from the standpoint of the international working class, because the interests of the working class are utterly opposed to those of both US imperialism and Putin.

Which has 0 to do with Putin deciding to invade Ukraine and when it pushed back, decided to wipe its population out.

 

[IlovethePies]

Yes, the answer to everything US imperialism.

i can justify this war because Ukraine wasn't an independent nation, it was under the thumb of the US.

How convenient

Which has 0 to do with Putin deciding to invade Ukraine and when it pushed back, decided to wipe its population out.

And this is where you are wrong.
I have never justified the war.

I have said from the start that putin represents the Russian capitalist class only, and the invasion of Ukraine was a barbaric and reactionary action which has served only to divide the Russian and Ukrainian working class.

I have explained the historical basis of the war, and the class interests involved. But I have repeatedly pointed out that this is a completely barbaric and retrograde war in which Ukrainian workers are slaughtering Russian workers in order to decide who gets the booty: Zelensky (and Ukrainian oligarchs, backed by US billionaires), or Putin (backed by Russian oligarchs).

Putin has not decided to wipe Ukraine's population out.
If you want an example of what that looks like, watch what's happening in Gaza and Lebanon.

 

[Cap]

And this is where you are wrong.
I have never justified the war.

I have said from the start that putin represents the Russian capitalist class only, and the invasion of Ukraine was a barbaric and reactionary action which has served only to divide the Russian and Ukrainian working class.

My apologies.

I'm not sure you are on the right track with divide. It's more the make sure they are always the same.

Putin couldn't have Ukrainian people living better lives than his Russian counterparts

I have explained the historical basis of the war, and the class interests involved. But I have repeatedly pointed out that this is a completely barbaric and retrograde war in which Ukrainian workers are slaughtering Russian workers in order to decide who gets the booty: Zelensky (and Ukrainian oligarchs, backed by US billionaires), or Putin (backed by Russian oligarchs).

i don't buy that, well, i buy the part wars are entered into by one part of group and fought by another.

I'll also agree that pre-war Ukraine was as corrupt as Russia, but the only reason Ukraine has any backing is because Putin made his mistakes.

Putin has not decided to wipe Ukraine's population out.

He is doing his best to kill or displace as many as he can..

If you want an example of what that looks like, watch what's happening in Gaza and Lebanon.

Israel is just more effective at it.

If Putin could, Putin would.

 

[IlovethePies]

My apologies.

I'm not sure you are on the right track with divide. It's more the make sure they are always the same.

Putin couldn't have Ukrainian people living better lives than his Russian counterparts

i don't buy that, well, i buy the part wars are entered into by one part of group and fought by another.

I'll also agree that pre-war Ukraine was as corrupt as Russia, but the only reason Ukraine has any backing is because Putin made his mistakes.



He is doing his best to kill or displace as many as he can..

Israel is just more effective at it.

If Putin could, Putin would.

Ok, well explain this then.
You just said Israel is more effective at killing and displacing people.
Who is backing Netanyahu? Of course, US imperialism
And who is backing Zelensky?
Well surprise, suprise, US imperialism.

Doesnt that start to make you wonder whether you should question the official framework?

 

[Cap]

Ok, well explain this then.
You just said Israel is more effective at killing and displacing people.
Who is backing Netanyahu? Of course, US imperialism
And who is backing Zelensky?
Well surprise, suprise, US imperialism.

Doesnt that start to make you wonder whether you should question the official framework?

I don't know the ins and outs of why the US backs Israel to the extent it does. Buts its lack of control over the current administration is noteable.

But I wouldn't be lumping Ukraine in with Israel, lets be honest, If the US wanted Ukraine as some European Colony then the war would have already been over and Ukraine part of Nato and the US would be their security guarantee

I'm not ignoring the benefit of either conflict on the USs enormous military budget or the fact that the US is the centre of the globes financial and still (just) global hierarchy.

But its not just the US that is happy to be at the centre, a huge swathe of countries are more than happy for their own reasons to have a dominant US.

Edit - that's not ignoring the US has done some pretty shitty things

 

[Zidane98]

Ukranians have suffered at the hands of Russians for hundreds of years. Ukranuabs are not Russian, don't want to be part of Russia and have always leant towards being a European nation.

Anyone trying to label this as US imperialism is simply repeating Russian lies and/or defending Russia's attempt to destroy Ukranian language & culture through genocidal actions.

Putin is on an arrest warrant for mass deportation & brain washing of Ukranian children against their will.

Putin has filtration camps setup to process Ukranian citizens being forcibly transferred to Russian territory, usually the far east so they can't find their way home easily.

Anyone labelling this as US imperialism is clearly a promoter of Russian propaganda and should hang their head in shame.

 

[RonSon]

North Korea is an impoverished tiny nation which could contribute the equivalent of tear drop in an ocean. Morevover, whatever North Korea can produce, it will be of a technologically primitive nature, given the economic sanctions that the US has tried to strangle it with.

I've seen estimates that North Korea is supplying up to half of the artillery shells Russia is using. As many as five million so far. Hardly a tear drop in an ocean.

 

[ferball]

No, I've watched interviews with leaders and commentators from eastern europe and places surrounding Russia, i have friends from places like Denmark, Norway and Sweeden who have to live with Russia as a neighbour.

I've never said there isn't propaganda on both sides, merely pointed out that something can be true and be propaganda



This is anti Russian propaganda, but this is also true and actually happened.

sure, some people might believe the war started at that point.

Others might also have fallen for the NATO expansion rubbish.

Putin probably doesn't want to take over the world, but he is a brutual dictator hellbent on restoring what he sees as Russias rightful place as a world power by any means he can.

You only need to listen to him to understand what he wants.

That's a horrific war crime but its also pretty racist to call it "purest Russian Culture" when the purest Russian Culture is authors like Dostoevsky, Gogol, Tolstoy, Sologub (and others) or composers like Stravinsky, Tchaikovsky and Rachmaninoff.

What's the purest American Culture?

Howlin' Wolf and Cormac McCarthy or shooting journalists from a helicopter gunship?

 

[Cap]

That's a horrific war crime but its also pretty racist to call it "purest Russian Culture" when the purest Russian Culture is authors like Dostoevsky, Gogol, Tolstoy, Sologub (and others) or composers like Stravinsky, Tchaikovsky and Rachmaninoff.

What's the purest American Culture?

Howlin' Wolf and Cormac McCarthy or shooting journalists from a helicopter gunship?

Oh that guy lives in Ukraine and has lived through an invasion that had included residential apartments, schools and shopping centres being targeted, the Bucha massacre and Russias using drones to hit random people in Kherson

He probably wasn't thinking to deeply at the time of that post and probably had good reason not to be thinking of people outside the current lot.

 

[ferball]

Oh that guy lives in Ukraine and has lived through an invasion that had included residential apartments, schools and shopping centres being targeted, the Bucha massacre and Russias using drones to hit random people in Kherson

He probably wasn't thinking to deeply at the time of that post and probably had good reason not to be thinking of people outside the current lot.

So what? He's talking about typical military culture the world over.

This thread is full of racist bullshit and has been from the start.

 

[Cap]

So what? He's talking about typical military culture the world over.

This thread is full of racist bullshit and has been from the start.

yes, let's tell those naughty Ukrainians off for being racist whilst Russia try's to exterminate them

 

[ferball]

yes, let's tell those naughty Ukrainians off for being racist whilst Russia try's to exterminate them

Well it happens with other places.

Meanwhile a former member of C-14 is now Ukrainian education minister and wants to ban Russian in Ukrainian schools, including between students outside of class.

Ministry of Education responded to the idea of banning the Russian language in schools during breaks - all the latest news today – 112.ua

Ministry of Education responded to the idea of banning the Russian language in schools during breaks - latest news today. All events in Ukraine and the world on request Ministry of Education responded to the idea of banning the Russian language in schools during breaks on the site 112.ua

112.ua

 

[Cap]

Well it happens with other places.

Meanwhile a former member of C-14 is now Ukrainian education minister and wants to ban Russian in Ukrainian schools, including between students outside of class.

Ministry of Education responded to the idea of banning the Russian language in schools during breaks - all the latest news today – 112.ua

Ministry of Education responded to the idea of banning the Russian language in schools during breaks - latest news today. All events in Ukraine and the world on request Ministry of Education responded to the idea of banning the Russian language in schools during breaks on the site 112.ua

112.ua

You don't see why a county that is being invaded wants to limit that language?

I'm not saying it is right or wrong, I'm just not that critical of it.

Would you be teaching the language of a country invading your own ? Especially when the excuse for the invasion was protecting people who speak that language?

 

[Zidane98]

It goes without saying that Ukranian language is not used in areas of Russia with significant Ukranian speaking communities (Bryansk, Belgorod, Kursk oblasts).

This isn't surprising as Russian is the national language of Russia


Exactly the same applies in Ukraine. Ukranian is the official language for use in education, government services. This is not a ban on Russian language however as it is still spoken freely anywhere in Ukraine, there is no law against it at all.

Also quite absurd to pain the whole conflict as a race issue. Ukranians & Russians are both slavic people ffs.