Europe Backdrop to the war in Ukraine

[Gethelred]

This is the thread for the geopolitics, history and framework around the Russia-Ukraine conflict. If you want to discuss the events of the war, head over to this thread:

Europe - War in Ukraine - Thread 4 - thread rules updated

This is the thread for discussing the War in Ukraine. Should you want to discuss the geopolitics, the history, or an interesting tangent, head over here: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/backdrop-to-the-war-in-ukraine.1302028/ If a post isn't directly concerning the events of the war or...

www.bigfooty.com

 

[ferball]

when he was growing up, it wasn't an issue was it.

Seeing people tortured and mass murdered sometimes changes your perspective on life.



Maybe take an ice bath, I hear they help clear the mind

Take your own advice. You're cooked.

 

[Cap]

Take your own advice. You're cooked.

sure thing Ivan

 

[Chief]

No it didn't. It invaded a country next to it. That's all.

And have a policy that the country it invaded isn't really a country but a part of Russia.

 

[ferball]

sure thing Ivan

What is this Ivan shit?

 

[jatz14]

What about all the Ukrainians who were born in areas of Ukraine that speak Russian, or to Russian speaking households? Like Zelenskyy ffs.

A decade ago in the so called breakaway republics and in the east of Ukraine generally people who spoke Russian suffered discrimination and in some cases violence from the likes of the current Ukrainian education minister. Now he's trying to ban kids speaking it in schools. Even if they were raised in Russian speaking households as Ukrainians and their Russian speaking dads potentially died fighting to defend their country.

We cannot have linguistic oppression, best let Russia take over. They will be really nice to the Ukrainian speakers.

 

[IlovethePies]

Thanks for confirming that your in favour of invading others sovereign countries, so you wont have a problem if Chian invades here. Is that right?
Also you wont have a problem if another country invades Russia?

Huh??

 

[IlovethePies]

I'm sure, to get to the point you are, you already have.

I mean you are still on the whole Nazi thing, even when literal Nazis are fighting for Russia.

It proves that anti Russian propaganda can be and in many cases is true and you can't always psuh back with, but Azov Nazis !!!!

Yes, even then Putin decided to go an invade his neighbour unprovoked.

Don't get me wrong, you'll make up lots of reasons that tell us he was provoked. But all them make Putin look even worse than he does now.

Yes, the answer to everything US imperialism.

i can justify this war because Ukraine wasn't an independent nation, it was under the thumb of the US.

How convenient

Which has 0 to do with Putin deciding to invade Ukraine and when it pushed back, decided to wipe its population out.

Not sure why you find it so important to deny the existence of Azov Nazis....except for the fact that they do exist.

 

[IlovethePies]

I don't know the ins and outs of why the US backs Israel to the extent it does.

Well i think its pretty essential that you do try to find out why the US does back Israel. Otherwise, by your own admission, you have NFI about the nature of this conflict, nor of any other conflict.

 

[ferball]

And have a policy that the country it invaded isn't really a country but a part of Russia.

Maybe they do.

But that doesn't mean that when they commit war crimes that's the purest expression of their culture, especially compared to the great writers or composers their culture has produced, any more than our war crimes since ww2 are the purest expression of our culture compared to the music of Paul Kelly or the footy commentary of Brian Taylor and Gus Gould. That's just racist bullshit. The most horrific shit happened in Gaza last night. No one says thats the purest expression of Jewish culture unless they're a racist shithead.

Also pointing out that its sus when a country with a significant proportion of Russian speaking citizens bans anyone from speaking Russian at any school at any time doesn't make me Russian or care about Russia. It just means its a sus thing to do.

 

[ferball]

We cannot have linguistic oppression, best let Russia take over. They will be really nice to the Ukrainian speakers.

I don't understand this.

Can you clarify?

Are you saying because I think its dodgy what ol mate from C14 is doing as education minister I therefore support Russia occupying Ukraine the way Israel occupies Gaza?

 

[IlovethePies]

Maybe they do.

But that doesn't mean that when they commit war crimes that's the purest expression of their culture, especially compared to the great writers or composers their culture has produced, any more than our war crimes since ww2 are the purest expression of our culture compared to the music of Paul Kelly or the footy commentary of Brian Taylor and Gus Gould. That's just racist bullshit. The most horrific shit happened in Gaza last night. No one says thats the purest expression of Jewish culture unless they're a racist shithead.

Also pointing out that its sus when a country with a significant proportion of Russian speaking citizens bans anyone from speaking Russian at any school at any time doesn't make me Russian or care about Russia. It just means its a sus thing to do.

Well said, man -
(although i wouldnt put Brian Taylor on the same level as Paul Kelly )

 

[Chief]

Maybe they do.

But that doesn't mean that when they commit war crimes that's the purest expression of their culture, especially compared to the great writers or composers their culture has produced, any more than our war crimes since ww2 are the purest expression of our culture compared to the music of Paul Kelly or the footy commentary of Brian Taylor and Gus Gould. That's just racist bullshit. The most horrific shit happened in Gaza last night. No one says thats the purest expression of Jewish culture unless they're a racist shithead.

Also pointing out that its sus when a country with a significant proportion of Russian speaking citizens bans anyone from speaking Russian at any school at any time doesn't make me Russian or care about Russia. It just means its a sus thing to do.

Your speech does not have anything to with what I said in answer to "they invaded, that's all".

They did a ****ton more than that.

 

[IlovethePies]

Ukranians have suffered at the hands of Russians for hundreds of years. Ukranuabs are not Russian, don't want to be part of Russia and have always leant towards being a European nation.

Anyone trying to label this as US imperialism is simply repeating Russian lies and/or defending Russia's attempt to destroy Ukranian language & culture through genocidal actions.

Putin is on an arrest warrant for mass deportation & brain washing of Ukranian children against their will.

Putin has filtration camps setup to process Ukranian citizens being forcibly transferred to Russian territory, usually the far east so they can't find their way home easily.

Anyone labelling this as US imperialism is clearly a promoter of Russian propaganda and should hang their head in shame.

Anyone promoting the lie that this war has been caused solely by big bad Putin, a monstrous psychopath motivated only by his obsssion to destroy Ukraine, is a mouthpiece of US/NATO propaganda.

Alternatively, those who seek out a scientific view of history, in which great historic conflicts are not attributed to the obsessions of individuals, but instead are explained by analysing the class interests of international class forces embedded within the capitalist economy, will react to such drivel with the contempt it deserves.

 

[Chief]

Anyone promoting the lie that this war has been caused by big bad Putin, a monstrous psychopath motivated only by his obsssion to destroy Ukraine, is a mouthpiece of US/NATO propaganda

This would be why Putin didn't invade and isn't trying to destroy Ukraine.

Also, he did and he's a monstrous psychopath.

 

[IlovethePies]

This would be why Putin didn't invade and isn't trying to destroy Ukraine.

Also, he's a monstrous psychopath.

Yep, I see you are also a disciple of the "big bad bogey man" view of history.

Everything that unfolds can be explained by the actions of one bogey man (oh, and by the way, I am the one who decides who the bogey man is )

 

[ferball]

Your speech does not have anything to with what I said in answer to "they invaded, that's all".

They did a ****ton more than that.

What do you think happens when one country invades another? Its pretty ****ed up for the country invaded.

Do you know why I said "they invaded, that's all".

 

[Chief]

Yep, I see you are also a disciple of the "big bad bogey man" view of history.

Everything that unfolds can be explained by the actions of one bogey man (oh, and by the way, I am the one who decides who the bogey man is )

You know who could have stopped the invasion from happening? Putin.

 

[Chief]

Don't be stupid, right now if he was at a Ukrainian school he wouldn't be able to speak his first language on the property by a former supervisor of Sich/c14.



No it didn't. It invaded a country next to it. That's all.

"Russia militarised its language and culture."

 

[IlovethePies]

You know who could have stopped the invasion from happening? Putin.

You're trapped in the big bad bogeyman universe of historical falsfication.

Until you are willing to study history, and apply a critical mindset, you won't be able to make any progress.

 

[Chief]

You're trapped in the big bad bogeyman universe of historical falsfication.

But Putin didn't have to invade. He could have not invaded.

None of the excuses stack up. Putin now has a bigger border with NATO than if he didn't invade. Also 600,000 fewer Russians. And a million or so who left. And an economic nightmare.

100% winning strat from Putey Pie.

 

[Cap]

Well i think its pretty essential that you do try to find out why the US does back Israel. Otherwise, by your own admission, you have NFI about the nature of this conflict, nor of any other conflict.

Not really, there are lots of conflicts around the world, I'm not the one trying to connect them.

Not sure why you find it so important to deny the existence of Azov Nazis....except for the fact that they do exist.

I'm not denying they exist or at least existed.

Just the excuse that Putin invaded because of Nazis is some what invalidated by you know, his own nazis

 

[Cap]

But Putin didn't have to invade. He could have not invaded.

None of the excuses stack up. Putin now has a bigger border with NATO than if he didn't invade. Also 600,000 fewer Russians. And a million or so who left. And an economic nightmare.

100% winning strat from Putey Pie.

The think these guys forget that after the fall of USSR , the western world tried to embrace Russia.

Putin has chosen this path.

 

[IlovethePies]

But Putin didn't have to invade. He could have not invaded.

None of the excuses stack up. Putin now has a bigger border with NATO than if he didn't invade. Also 600,000 fewer Russians. And a million or so who left. And an economic nightmare.

100% winning strat from Putey Pie.

To understand why Putin invaded, you need to go much deeper than the individual decisions of an individual in a certain instant of time.
There is just no way to understand what is going on with such a method.
Utilising this method (the method of impressionism), you are totally confined to your immediate instantaneous observations, without any understanding of how the current situation relates to the previous years of historical process.

You simply are looking at a single event - a snapshot of reality - in which Putin invaded Ukraine and, on that basis, you declare that Putin is the SOLE cause of the war.

This is absurd. It is equivalent to concluding that Hitler was the sole cause of WW2.

It just lacks any kind of intellectual value.

 

[IlovethePies]

Just the excuse that Putin invaded because of Nazis is some what invalidated by you know, his own nazis

This is a very dishonest reply. Here is what you said:


"I mean you are still on the whole Nazi thing, even when literal Nazis are fighting for Russia."

I then replied by pointing out that Nazis are also fighting in the Ukrainian army. (in the Azov batallion and no doubt others).

You then, and here is the dishonest part, claimed that I was excusing Putin because supposedly he is "denazifying" Ukraine.

I never have made any such claim. Your statement is completely disingenuous.

Putin has no issue with Nazis. He was happy to collaborate for a long while with the paramilitary fascists in the Wagner group.

"Denazifying Ukraine" is totally treacherous pro Russian propaganda, which I oppose absolutely.

I utterly reject your attempt to connect me in any way with it.

 

[IlovethePies]

The think these guys forget that after the fall of USSR , the western world tried to embrace Russia.

Putin has chosen this path.

This is a total lie.
Russia tried to embrace the West.
Instead, the West responded by extending the borders of NATO to russia's borders.