Bevo out

[Mr. Walker]

Years and years ago (not in this thread obviously) I wrote a criticism of then coach Terry Wallace. My concern was that Terry wanted his legacy to be the “great innovator “ and was sacrificing any chance of success to that end. IMO he had this vision of football being played by 22 mobile athletes and was only recruiting Jordan McMahon

Jordan Mcmahon

Age

41

Ht

186cm

Wt

80kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

17.2

4star

K

11.0

4star

HB

6.2

4star

M

4.3

4star

T

1.8

4star

No current season stats available

D

10.8

3star

K

7.6

3star

HB

3.2

3star

M

2.4

3star

T

0.6

3star

types.
I am concerned Bev has a similar view in that ruckman are not necessary to team success and the team he puts out on the field will prove this. It does not matter how many games are lost meanwhile his vision will prevail.
Or it could just be the he has no competitive ruckman available so he goes with the hand he is dealt. I think he needs to give Sweet/Young a longer go at it.

 

[Anja_Nees]

Years and years ago (not in this thread obviously) I wrote a criticism of then coach Terry Wallace. My concern was that Terry wanted his legacy to be the “great innovator “ and was sacrificing any chance of success to that end. IMO he had this vision of football being played by 22 mobile athletes and was only recruiting Jordan McMahon types.
I am concerned Bev has a similar view in that ruckman are not necessary to team success and the team he puts out on the field will prove this. It does not matter how many games are lost meanwhile his vision will prevail.
Or it could just be the he has no competitive ruckman available so he goes with the hand he is dealt. I think he needs to give Sweet/Young a longer go at it.

Was told by someone at the club over the preseason that, contrary to what the public might think, Bevo absolutely hated getting smashed in the hitouts last year with Tim in the middle, but he just had no faith in anyone else to do the around the ground work that he considers more important.

If Martin had just been available most weeks and been ok, so we could leave Tim more forward, I think we’d have been right. I think we just picked the wrong guy. Hindsight is 20/20 but Hickey or Ryder a few years back could have been good options. We have to rectify it, but Bev just didn’t think Sweet or Trengove would improve us the last few years.

 

[Anja_Nees]

For what it’s worth I’m seething about the way the year is finishing, but I also think about the failed finals campaigns that West Coast before 2006 and 2018, Geelong before 2007 and Richmond before 2017.

The road to a flag is rarely linear. Our ruck situation sucks but it’s sucked for three years. It’s the collapse of our midfield and forward line in the last three weeks that have finished us. Bont, Libba, Dunkley, Smith and Treloar are down, and Naughton and English have been down since their injuries.

Just need to see what we can make of what’s left of this season and see if we can improve next year, maybe with some change in the ruck and backline.

 

[grassman75]

This thread is going to be 100% objective and with no emotions whatsoever clearly

There are teams who would be screaming out to have 16 wins and be sitting in 5th spot, locked into finals for the 3rd year in a row.

The team has been completely hamstrung by the long term injuries to Martin, Dunks, Treloar and to a lesser extent VDM and the lack of VFL for Sweet. He would be a liability running round on that preparation. Kinda like Khamis against Carlton where he sat out nearly a quarter.

We've had to manipulate game time of players in game to get them back to fitness and we ****ed up with the bye break.

The ruck situation is embarassing, when we are back to hiding English onfield cos he's cooked and using mids to ruck, but that's what it is.

I don't love the situation, but FMD - if you told me back in 2014 this is what id have to deal with as a Dogs supporter id take it in a heartbeat.

We haven't been flogged once this year, even the games we lost, we still had a chance. We've beaten 3 of top 4 at least once and got ripped off against Geelong.

So many bedwetters in here

 

[grassman75]

In my opinion, we can beat anyone anywhere with our current list. This includes winning the next 4 weeks if we simply pick a team to our optimal structure - which is to ******* GO TALL!

That is how we beat Melbourne in round 20, and also why we won the first 6 rounds.

The magical structure is pretty obvious - must select:

- 2 pure KPFs
- 3rd KPF who also rucks
- 1 pure ruck

I know it, you know it, we all ******* know it.

Bev won’t do it - and it’s going to cost us the shot at our third flag.

I think he wants to play this structure, the cattle just aren't available

 

[Al dente]

We'd be mad to remove Bevo, unless Clarkson approached us.

While we have been stiff with injuries and no bye, the Martin injuries were foreseeable, and Bevo has to own the ruck debacle, 4 years to get a ruckman in and hasnt, and completely misjudged English's potential as a tap ruckman.

 

[Guido]

While we have been stiff with injuries and no bye, the Martin injuries were foreseeable, and Bevo has to own the ruck debacle, 4 years to get a ruckman in and hasnt, and completely misjudged English's potential as a tap ruckman.

Great rucks and KPPs don't become available often, even to clubs that have historically been able to attract the best talent. Geelong have had about 8 swings at a ruck since Ottens retired. Clarkson took 4 years of knowing he needed a great key defender (costing finals and Grand Finals) before being able to land one (Lake).

Outside of that:

We were right into Nankervis.
We've chased Martin for 4-5 years.
We've asked the question of Goldstein when he was out of contract.

A lot of this was was while we had what we thought would be (based on his ceiling in the Grand Final) a great long term ruck/forward, in Tom Boyd. Had he continued, 26yo, 150 game Tom Boyd would actually be the perfect player to add to this list right now.

This isn't what you said above, but more a general narrative on this board - the idea that Beveridge "doesn't rate ruckmen" IMO isn't accurate. He's tried to recruit a few, and when he has landed one and he's been fully fit (Martin), Beveridge has played him. He, rightly or wrongly, wants rucks that are up to the fitness required and quite mobile around the ground, which for different reasons, Campbell, Trengrove and Sweet (yet, anyway) haven't been.

 

[Chalky White]

Years and years ago (not in this thread obviously) I wrote a criticism of then coach Terry Wallace. My concern was that Terry wanted his legacy to be the “great innovator “ and was sacrificing any chance of success to that end. IMO he had this vision of football being played by 22 mobile athletes and was only recruiting Jordan McMahon types.
I am concerned Bev has a similar view in that ruckman are not necessary to team success and the team he puts out on the field will prove this. It does not matter how many games are lost meanwhile his vision will prevail.
Or it could just be the he has no competitive ruckman available so he goes with the hand he is dealt. I think he needs to give Sweet/Young a longer go at it.

 

[Chalky White]

Great rucks and KPPs don't become available often, even to clubs that have historically been able to attract the best talent. Geelong have had about 8 swings at a ruck since Ottens retired. Clarkson took 4 years of knowing he needed a great key defender (costing finals and Grand Finals) before being able to land one (Lake).

Outside of that:

We were right into Nankervis.
We've chased Martin for 4-5 years.
We've asked the question of Goldstein when he was out of contract.

A lot of this was was while we had what we thought would be (based on his ceiling in the Grand Final) a great long term ruck/forward, in Tom Boyd. Had he continued, 26yo, 150 game Tom Boyd would actually be the perfect player to add to this list right now.

This isn't what you said above, but more a general narrative on this board - the idea that Beveridge "doesn't rate ruckmen" IMO isn't accurate. He's tried to recruit a few, and when he has landed one and he's been fully fit (Martin), Beveridge has played him. He, rightly or wrongly, wants rucks that are up to the fitness required and quite mobile around the ground, which for different reasons, Campbell, Trengrove and Sweet (yet, anyway) haven't been.

He recruited a 35 year old ruckman that wasn't getting a game at Brisbane because of injury issues. He started well with us but the same issues he had with Brisbane have affected his season.
How about we try and develop our own ruckmen? Get a raw kid (Sweet) or similar, give them games (because what have we got to lose) persevere and nurture them. That's player development, that's what makes a good coach.

 

[Guido]

He recruited a 35 year old ruckman that wasn't getting a game at Brisbane because of injury issues. He started well with us but the same issues he had with Brisbane have affected his season.
How about we try and develop our own ruckmen? Get a raw kid (Sweet) or similar, give them games (because what have we got to lose) persevere and nurture them. That's player development, that's what makes a good coach.

Martin was still playing games last year, including finals (though he was obviously struggling with injury) - we rolled the dice that he could get his body right and it hasn't happened. Early in the season his recruitment looked a masterstroke.

Sweet's last game, he got 3 touches. To be honest, I would have given him another 4-5 games throughout the AFL season, but losing 7-8(?) weeks of VFL to knock the door down for another recall/maintain match fitness has really worked against him more than most. I still hold hope that he has what it takes to be an AFL level 1st ruck, but he needs to improve his tank / around the ground work - think a great pre-season could make the world of difference for him.

 

[Dogs_r_barking]

Years and years ago (not in this thread obviously) I wrote a criticism of then coach Terry Wallace. My concern was that Terry wanted his legacy to be the “great innovator “ and was sacrificing any chance of success to that end. IMO he had this vision of football being played by 22 mobile athletes and was only recruiting Jordan McMahon types.
I am concerned Bev has a similar view in that ruckman are not necessary to team success and the team he puts out on the field will prove this. It does not matter how many games are lost meanwhile his vision will prevail.
Or it could just be the he has no competitive ruckman available so he goes with the hand he is dealt. I think he needs to give Sweet/Young a longer go at it.

I don’t quite understand this whole Bevo doesn’t like rucks scenario. He tried to get Stef Martin over for years, it’s just really unfortunate that Stef was past it when we got him. Who else was available? We all turned our noses up at Hickey.

I know we are all a bit disappointed with the cards we have been dealt but keep things in perspective.

 

[josh the gent]

Great rucks and KPPs don't become available often, even to clubs that have historically been able to attract the best talent. Geelong have had about 8 swings at a ruck since Ottens retired. Clarkson took 4 years of knowing he needed a great key defender (costing finals and Grand Finals) before being able to land one (Lake).

Outside of that:

We were right into Nankervis.
We've chased Martin for 4-5 years.
We've asked the question of Goldstein when he was out of contract.

A lot of this was was while we had what we thought would be (based on his ceiling in the Grand Final) a great long term ruck/forward, in Tom Boyd. Had he continued, 26yo, 150 game Tom Boyd would actually be the perfect player to add to this list right now.

This isn't what you said above, but more a general narrative on this board - the idea that Beveridge "doesn't rate ruckmen" IMO isn't accurate. He's tried to recruit a few, and when he has landed one and he's been fully fit (Martin), Beveridge has played him. He, rightly or wrongly, wants rucks that are up to the fitness required and quite mobile around the ground, which for different reasons, Campbell, Trengrove and Sweet (yet, anyway) haven't been.

Bevo has prioritised all other areas than rucks. Not just in match tactics, but also in squad building.

Since 2014, he has brought in 4 rucks in total, at the following cost:

- Rookie pick (2015) - Luke Goetz
- First round pick (2016) - Tim English
- Rookie pick (2018) - Jordan Sweet
- Late pick downgrade (2020) - Stef Martin

Trengove doesn’t really count, he was always more a KPD than a ruck - but he was an FA anyway.

Aside from Tim English, he’s basically spent nothing on the ruck position in 7 years.

No wonder our stocks are woeful. Not that he plays them anyway!

 

[maddog37]

Bevo has prioritised all other areas than rucks. Not just in match tactics, but also in squad building.

Since 2014, he has brought in 4 rucks in total, at the following cost:

- Rookie pick (2015) - Luke Goetz
- First round pick (2016) - Tim English
- Rookie pick (2018) - Jordan Sweet
- Late pick downgrade (2020) - Stef Martin

Trengove doesn’t really count, he was always more a KPD than a ruck - but he was an FA anyway.

Aside from Tim English, he’s basically spent nothing on the ruck position in 7 years.

No wonder our stocks are woeful. Not that he plays them anyway!

Bevo ain’t the list manager.

 

[josh the gent]

Bevo ain’t the list manager.

It would be naive to think he doesn’t have significant input.

Irrespective, you can’t have it both ways - post i was responding to was someone saying Bevo targetted recruiting rucks in the off-season…

 

[BEaston]

Bevo not liking rucks is a fallacy. It's like saying Eade didn't like KPFs which is bs (got Big Baz too late, similar to Stef Martin). They both developed strategies around the strengths of the list available as both prefer playing AFL capable players rather than keeping a specific structure by playing mediocre players.

Lack of quality rucks on the list is a criticism of list management, not coaching.

 

[Anja_Nees]

We'd be mad to remove Bevo, unless Clarkson approached us.

While we have been stiff with injuries and no bye, the Martin injuries were foreseeable, and Bevo has to own the ruck debacle, 4 years to get a ruckman in and hasnt, and completely misjudged English's potential as a tap ruckman.

I actually think even the Clarkson thing is very much about the grass being greener. He had spectacular success, but the Hawks haven’t won a final since before we won the flag and he’s presided over an absolute debacle with their list management. They haven’t been much good for a long time and they’ve mortgaged the future to get to where they are now.

It’s fair to judge him partly on his outrageous early success, and if we had no coach he’d be a candidate obviously, but no one should just assume he’d do a whole lot better.

 

[DognBones]

I've managed to get a look at all the other teams in the 8 this weekend and a few outside the 8 and I must say they look energised and eager for the fight. Our team, in comparison however, looks flatter than a flooring board and lacking any cohesion. If Bev can manage to instil self-belief and rejuvenate his tired, dispirited team, especially with so many questions regarding the resources at his disposal, then all is forgiven - well, almost.

 

[josh the gent]

I've managed to get a look at all the other teams in the 8 this weekend and a few outside the 8 and I must say they look energised and eager for the fight. Our team, in comparison however, looks flatter than a flooring board and lacking any cohesion. If Bev can manage to instil self-belief and rejuvenate his tired, dispirited team, especially with so many questions regarding the resources at his disposal, then all is forgiven - well, almost.

FWIW….. i think we’ll win this week!

Loads of examples of this situation - perhaps our 2019 Elim Final vs GWS as a reminder?

We started 1.80 faves against them in Sydney, having belted them by 11 goals in rd 21 and being on a streak (while they’d fallen off completely).

We. Just. Need. To. Play. A. Ruck!

 

[Anja_Nees]

I've managed to get a look at all the other teams in the 8 this weekend and a few outside the 8 and I must say they look energised and eager for the fight. Our team, in comparison however, looks flatter than a flooring board and lacking any cohesion. If Bev can manage to instil self-belief and rejuvenate his tired, dispirited team, especially with so many questions regarding the resources at his disposal, then all is forgiven - well, almost.

One thing we have no way to know is how the players are coping physically and what we’ve been doing to get them up.

There are a few possibilities. They could be nervous or mentally shot, a number of them might be carrying injuries or be unfit following weeks out, or our program for the players isn’t much good and they’ve finished the season flat.

I’m hopeful that the sudden death aspect of finals sparks a bit more from them, and that we at least make week two, but clubs aren’t very transparent about these things. They’ll never admit it if the players are physically spent.

 

[DognBones]

One thing we have no way to know is how the players are coping physically and what we’ve been doing to get them up.

There are a few possibilities. They could be nervous or mentally shot, a number of them might be carrying injuries or be unfit following weeks out, or our program for the players isn’t much good and they’ve finished the season flat.

I’m hopeful that the sudden death aspect of finals sparks a bit more from them, and that we at least make week two, but clubs aren’t very transparent about these things. They’ll never admit it if the players are physically spent.

You could be right in all aspects. However, as supporters, it's what we see on the field and the result achieved upon which we make our assessment. On game day, the rest is noise.

 

[Mattdougie]

Only two options for the club.

1. Bevo is approached and told the club needs a senior assistant who takes on a number of his responsibilities and he removes himself from micromanaging everyhting. Assistants need to have real input into game plan and match selection and not be fearful of their position if they disagree with Bevo.

2. Bevo refuses help, if this happens he should be stepped down.

i still think it Can work and we win a flag with him but he needs to back off, not try and be so clever, accept he has major flaws and is not always right. If this occurred he would be fine.

This was said post 2018 and 2019 by several including myself.

Bevo looks mentally cooked and it’s effecting the team imo.

Just look at his attitude in his pressers compared to the other coaches. He is balled up tighter than a fishes a$$

 

[ScragCity]

This was said post 2018 and 2019 by several including myself.

Bevo looks mentally cooked and it’s effecting the team imo.

Just look at his attitude in his pressers compared to the other coaches. He is balled up tighter than a fishes a$$

Hes more concerned with getting Dana financially compensated for missing a week's work than coaching the side.

 

[WallyStringhaus]

Can someone forward me on a copy of the match committee video some of you clearly have? I'm expecting to see Luke (despite reportedly having an EQ that is off the charts) violently banging his fists on the table as he berates all of his assistants whilst they cower in fear.

None of us have a clue what happens behind closed doors and its ridiculous to speculate.

How about we concentrate on the facts;

Our 5th placed H&A finish will be our highest in a decade.

This will be the 2nd time in our HISTORY that we have played 5 finals series in a 7 year span.

Bevo is 3 wins away from the most wins as a coach in our HISTORY.

He has the highest win % for anyone who has coached 20+ games in our HISTORY.

He is already tied for most finals wins in our HISTORY.

We just finished the season with the 2nd ranked attack, 4th ranked defence and 2nd best percentage. All this despite missing our 1st choice ruckman for 2/3 of the year, Our 2nd choice KPD for 2/3 year, Our most experienced defender for 1/2 year and Two A grade mids for 1/2 year.

I'm choosing to stay optimistic.

We've got the Dons who we've won 6 of our last 7 against and who we should have beat last time. We knock them over and we play the loser of Lions and Dees.

We've won 6 of our last 8 against the Lions and 3 of our last 4 against the Dees. Beat one of them and we get another crack at the Cats or Power who both took 120 minutes to sneak in front of us.

We're in this up to our eyeballs I'm tellin' ya.

Go Dogs!

 

[VogonProsthetnic]

This was said post 2018 and 2019 by several including myself.

Bevo looks mentally cooked and it’s effecting the team imo.

Just look at his attitude in his pressers compared to the other coaches. He is balled up tighter than a fishes a$$

I’m more worried about his awful match day tactics and stuffing up our ruck situation. This was also said in 2019 and 2020.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

Great rucks and KPPs don't become available often, even to clubs that have historically been able to attract the best talent. Geelong have had about 8 swings at a ruck since Ottens retired. Clarkson took 4 years of knowing he needed a great key defender (costing finals and Grand Finals) before being able to land one (Lake).

Outside of that:

We were right into Nankervis.
We've chased Martin for 4-5 years.
We've asked the question of Goldstein when he was out of contract.

A lot of this was was while we had what we thought would be (based on his ceiling in the Grand Final) a great long term ruck/forward, in Tom Boyd. Had he continued, 26yo, 150 game Tom Boyd would actually be the perfect player to add to this list right now.

This isn't what you said above, but more a general narrative on this board - the idea that Beveridge "doesn't rate ruckmen" IMO isn't accurate. He's tried to recruit a few, and when he has landed one and he's been fully fit (Martin), Beveridge has played him. He, rightly or wrongly, wants rucks that are up to the fitness required and quite mobile around the ground, which for different reasons, Campbell, Trengrove and Sweet (yet, anyway) haven't been.

The very act of drafting English with a top 20 pick proves that Beveridge value rucks, because virtually on rucks get drafted that early in modern footy, yet we were hopeful that English when drafting him could turn into that ruck.

Pick value of first ruck taken in the draft (not counting players who were converted to ruck at AFL level, or were drafted with the ope

2012: Grundy - Pick 18
2013: Nankervis - 35
2014: Pittonet - 50
2015: Flynn - 41
2016: English - 19
2017: T. De Koning- 30
2018: Fort - 65
2019: Jackson - 3

Essentially, across a 6 year window between Grundy and Jackson, English was the earliest out-and-out ruck in the league who was drafted as playing junior footy in the ruck, and was expected to play the vast majority of their football in the ruck at the time they were drafted.

You don't do that unless you value the ruck position.