Bluemour Discussion Thread XVIII - Please Sir, Can We Have More?

[doormat73]

Daniher will get to Syd and Papley will get to us

We may have to hand in our 2019 and 2020 firsts with 2 seconds and Cameron in return

In my humble opinion Papley is not worth two firsts. That kills any hope of Whitfield or a gun mid this year or next. Likely lose Martin as well.

 

[F_therest]

Do we have any interest whatsoever in Harley Bennell?

Surely he's at least worth an interview. Yes I know his risks. But at base wage for a year on a rookie list?

No

 

[Blue__Balls]

You grab a bloke around the head then that's on you, regardless of whether they have done anything to draw it.

It's not a blight on the game, it's just one player exploiting the weakness of other players which is what good football is all about. Plenty of players tackle Selwood correctly, it's the ones who don't that stand out because they give away the free.

Tackling is a skill of the game, it's not supposed to be easy and tackling the good players is not supposed to be easy. The good players are supposed to be hard to play against.

Selwood and others aren't cheating. They are very good positioners with exceptional smarts and physical strength. All they are doing is taking advantage of bad tackling which IMO is bad football. Blokes who have a poor tackling technique and tackle a little high to begin with instead of tackling lower and bringing the opponent down.

Good on them for being able to do what they do. Puts the challenge towards the opposition to tackle better and be better and for other players to get to their level in regards to this ability and IMO this is what elite sport is all about. Pushing the boundaries and being challenging at the highest possible level.



This is not taking dives and flopping, this is completely different. That is cheating and has no base on skill or ability. That is something I hate seeing in the game. This is about players who are elite at what they do being ultimately difficult to play against. It's not playing for free kicks, it's taking advantage of bad football (bad tackling).

You're blaming the player getting the free for doing an action which gets them a free. I think far greater blame must go towards the tackler. In the end it's them giving a free away they wouldn't have if they tackled better and with more superior technique. I think most just thing most, if not all the frees plays get from shrugging tackles you could say the tackler could have done that better.

I don't think it's good for the game to reward players with technical flaws and lesser abilities at the expense of players who have elite ability and technique.

Someone like Selwood for instance has elite technique and strength. You have players who have inferior technique and strength infringing because they aren't as good at tackling as Selwood is at shrugging. Quite simply you have a better player beating and exploiting lesser players or player weakness.

I say get better at tackling, go up a level or Selwood and guys like him are going to beat you.

Dropping at the knees, yes that's different but the game is full of players using their strengths and techniques to draw free kicks. Forward who position well and out body to make it more likely they are pushed, chopped or held. Mids who position and use their strengths to put pressure on their opponent and force a hold or illegal tactic. Most free kicks come about from players making mistakes or being done for ability, no different here.

End of the day there is a difference between drawing a free which takes skill, ability, toughness and smarts to put pressure on the opposition to make them do the wrong thing and staging for free kicks which this is not.

IMO we miss out on a heap of free kicks each game because we don't put our head over the ball and take contact enough and because our players don't have the physical strength to bring these little slips and holds. Murphy is good at it because he's strong and willing to put the head over the footy and draw contact but also because he's experienced and clever. Our young players need to add this to their game. Make the opposition worried and then have the menouvers and physical strength the put them in a position where they are giving more frees away.

I put this lack of ability in our team as high priority. We don't get enough free kicks. It's not AFL or umpiring bias. It's to do with the deficiencies in the game of our young players across the board and it's something we need to work on to take the next step.

Good technique, good courage, good athleticism and knowing how to use it and having good game craft will get you more free kicks and also make you a good player.

I think it's funny how the opposition know how hard it is to tackle someone like Selwood and know if you don't tackle properly he will beat you yet they still do it. The challenge is there to do it better. Good on him if he exploits bad tackles and rewards himself with the odd free kick. Good technique, strength and it's good smarts. It's actually good craft and good football.

Disagree entirely.

The rule exists to protect players. Head injuries have clearly been identified as something the AFL wants to minimise/eliminate, and to that end there is a rule that penalises players who make contact with an opponent's head.

For a player to then take deliberate steps to ensure an opponent makes contact with their head goes against the purpose for the rule to exist in the first place. How can the AFL protect players' heads when, as a direct result, players are rewarded for exploiting that protection for competitive gain.

Shrugging tackles is OK in my book, a player has the right to try to slip an opponents grasp by lifting their arms. Players who drop at the knees and "lean" excessively into tackles (ie. Tippa) should not be receiving free kicks in such circumstances. You can't tackle a player below the knees, you can't tackle a player above the shoulders, so where do you tackle when a 5'8 bloke is allowed to fall to his knees, lean forward, and tuck his head?

 

[TPC05]

In my humble opinion Papley is not worth two firsts. That kills any hope of Whitfield or a gun mid this year or next. Likely lose Martin as well.

I agree with you 110%

 

[agro]

Also prefer Butler over Sam Gray... said that too..

Can we get Blakey and Butler?

 

[Blue__Balls]

Cutler is an URFA, BB so will come for nothing. Like the rest but gotta feel we'll only recruit 2 of Papley, Betts, Butler (that's my order of preference as is likely for most).

Although with the amount of cuts we've had, we could probably afford them all given Cameron, Butler, Eddie and Cutler will cost nothing.

You lie, he's not a free agent at all

 

[Pafloyul]

I agree with you 110%

I agree 200%

 

[Coops93]

In my humble opinion Papley is not worth two firsts. That kills any hope of Whitfield or a gun mid this year or next. Likely lose Martin as well.

It's not 2 firsts for Papley - It's 2 firsts for Papley, 2 second rounders and Cameron. That's not too bad

2 second round picks probably gets Martin.

 

[Blue__Balls]

In my humble opinion Papley is not worth two firsts. That kills any hope of Whitfield or a gun mid this year or next. Likely lose Martin as well.

Incorrect on most counts.

8 + 12 for Papley, Cameron, 24 and 26.

Actually values Papley and Cameron around Pick 12, which seems fair.

Gives us 3 second rounders to deal for Martin, which should be plenty. In an even-ish draft it's likely someone will trade us a top 20 pick and change for two mid seconds.

And Whitfield is a Free Agent next year, if we can convince him to come we don't need to trade for him (see Coniglio shenanigans). The trick is convincing him to turn his back on whatever bullshit the AFL offer him under the table.

 

[MrJimmy]

On the mend: Daniher 'really comfortable' at Essendon

Joe Daniher says he has no thoughts of leaving Essendon and is only focused on returning from groin surgery.

www.theage.com.au

"When asked at the launch of Kayo's AFL finals coverage if he would definitely remain a Bomber, Daniher replied: "The club has touched on it before. I am just really comfortable where I am at right now. I am contracted to the footy club and I am just going to do my best and have an impact for the club."

He's gone

 

[GT619]

Report: Richmond forward meets with Carlton

The Blues have caught up with the Tiger.

www.sen.com.au

Yes please

 

[footyfan1978]

Can we get Blakey and Butler?

If we give up Cripps....
ferris told me to say it... plz direct any anger his way..

 

[Coona Blues]

Daniher will get to Syd and Papley will get to us

We may have to hand in our 2019 and 2020 firsts with 2 seconds and Cameron in return

Not the worst result, would hopefully be on the proviso that one of those seconds is enough for Martin(I have my doubts). Maybe SOS can wangle #8 for two later first rounders somehow, has done it before.

Papley, Martin, Cameron would be an excellent trade period. Would also entertain Eddie for a one year contract, playing triggers for a possible second if that is his desire, and coaching/mentoring role longer term.

 

[Blue and Blue]

Can we get Blakey and Butler?

And Olive r

 

[The Smoking Gun]

It's not 2 firsts for Papley - It's 2 firsts for Papley, 2 second rounders and Cameron. That's not too bad

2 second round picks probably gets Martin.

I'd be absolutely livid if we did that deal.

 

[F_therest]

Happy to do it.

Earliest second rounder gets us Martin.

Adelaide's third on Cutler.

One of Betts/Gray/Cutler for a late pick swap.

Take a third rounder to the draft, plus Manton and a mature-ager with late picks.

Papley, Martin, Cutler, Cameron, (Betts/Gray/Butler).

Head into 2020 without a first rounder, but with two seconds (ours plus Sydney's). Can see Sydney being bottom 6 next year, and we should crack the 8. Gives us a draft hand of 24, 30, 48, 66 which is perfectly fine.

It's a steep price to pay when compared to pick 12 that Brisbane gave up for Cameron. Really pick 8 on it's own should be enough, maybe + steak knives.

But assuming we can flip one of Sydney's 2nd rounders (maybe + steak knives like pick 39) for Martin, i would be ok with the deal if push came to shove.

It could end up something like:
IN: Papley, Martin, Sydney 2020 2nd rounder, Cameron
OUT: Pick 8, 2020 1st rounder, pick 39

Not the best deal in the world, but OK given Papley's contract, and it will give us immediate improvement next year onwards.

The idea would be we would be enticing enough end of next year to lure a FA with these additions, or we still have our 2021 1st rounder and 2 x 2020 2nd rounders to trade for a gun mid/ruck.

 

[ferrisb]

Can we get Blakey and Butler?

And Olive r

You'd think they would entertain the players travelling on the buses....

 

[HARKER]

In my humble opinion Papley is not worth two firsts. That kills any hope of Whitfield or a gun mid this year or next. Likely lose Martin as well.

Don't like the idea of handing over two firsts regardless of seconds coming back.
Gap can be far too wide, unless there's a clear understanding that those two seconds will be manufactured back into a first for 2020.
We have to be able to work Papley & Martin with our current '19 currency, unless what I have above can be manufactured.

Papley for the #8 plus a swap of a second for a third with Sydney should be fair enough.
Martin then for a second and maybe something else. The other back end picks for Gray, Cameron etc.

Given the players e're currently talking about, we don't want to walk into 2020 without a first. We may regret it.

 

[Jeremias]

Isn’t Bews a FA, that makes him appealing and Menegola next year is a UFA, which might make the Cats want to move him on, I rate him and he wouldn’t cost much.

Yes, he is an unrestricted free agent, as is Selwood.

We are very short on lock-down defensive options, and have always rated that side of his game.

Does nothing on the offensive end so it's just a matter of whether that type is seen as having a spot in our side, personally I would go for him, given he would be best 22 and his cost would be minimal.

Reasonable and of that list I would target in order Narkle, Parfitt, Bews, Menegola. A no to S. Selwood, as I believe we already have that type in Ed, but I do like his hardness

Selwood I would look at for mature backup purposes only.

Clearly past his best but I think he could still be of value mainly at VFL level - still finds plenty of it, good mover, remains hard as a cats head.

Think he'd be a decent stop-gap option too for a year should Ed or even Cripps miss time.

If he has an eye on a coaching or development role down the track, I have no issue giving him a one year playing deal with the view to him moving into the box thereafter.

You probably didn't name Cockatoo given his history of injuries, but if he could put those behind him.......he'd be the one.

A 23 year old that could give a club plenty.....if only....

Signed a new deal a few weeks back.

 

[F_therest]

Don't like the idea of handing over two firsts regardless of seconds coming back.
Gap can be far too wide, unless there's a clear understanding that those two seconds will be manufactured back into a first for 2020.
We have to be able to work Papley & Martin with our current '19 currency, unless what I have above can be manufactured.

Papley for the #8 plus a swap of a second for a third with Sydney should be fair enough.
Martin then for a second and maybe something else. The other back end picks for Gray, Cameron etc.

Given the players e're currently talking about, we don't want to walk into 2020 without a first. We may regret it.

We would still have 2021 1st rounder + 2 x 2020 2nd rounders to do a deal for a gun mid.

Or hope that the improvement we gain from Papley & Martin leads to a reasonably high ladder finish, making it easier for us to lure a gun FA.

 

[Pafloyul]

Incorrect on most counts.

8 + 12 for Papley, Cameron, 24 and 26.

Actually values Papley and Cameron around Pick 12, which seems fair.

Gives us 3 second rounders to deal for Martin, which should be plenty. In an even-ish draft it's likely someone will trade us a top 20 pick and change for two mid seconds.

And Whitfield is a Free Agent next year, if we can convince him to come we don't need to trade for him (see Coniglio shenanigans). The trick is convincing him to turn his back on whatever bulls**t the AFL offer him under the table.

Whitfield may not be the only target and may not even want to come to us. It's a big risk giving up next year's first on a player (Papley), who probably won't be the difference, when our biggest need in reality is to replace Murphy and Simmo.

 

[doormat73]

Incorrect on most counts.

8 + 12 for Papley, Cameron, 24 and 26.

Actually values Papley and Cameron around Pick 12, which seems fair.

Gives us 3 second rounders to deal for Martin, which should be plenty. In an even-ish draft it's likely someone will trade us a top 20 pick and change for two mid seconds.

And Whitfield is a Free Agent next year, if we can convince him to come we don't need to trade for him (see Coniglio shenanigans). The trick is convincing him to turn his back on whatever bulls**t the AFL offer him under the table.

Nope. Not really persuaded by the equivalent points argument, Doesn't apply to the top picks.

A rabid cash released pick uped * will buy Martin and any other decent player or FA.

Whitfield is plan B this year. We need the first picks for bigger fish.

Take Eddie for nothing and let him help develop the next Sheldon, Johnston, Harms from the kids within, Surely, one of Dow, Fisher, Cunningham .... will develop while Eddie takes up the slack for a year or two.

In the alternate, another small forward will surely become available in that time

 

[Aphrodite]

Do we have any interest whatsoever in Harley Bennell?

Surely he's at least worth an interview. Yes I know his risks. But at base wage for a year on a rookie list?

 

[KJP7]

Papley costing two first rounders is crazy even if we get two second rounders back, whilst he has huge upside I'd rather us invest our time in getting Martin who has fantastic goal nous and would benefit greatly from our system.

We'd be better served by using our first rounders to add an inside outside A-grade mid so that it'd allow players like Kennedy & Setterfield to build into their roles, we all saw what happened under Bolton when our youngsters were put under the pump too early.

Since Agresta has come on board our talent ID from other clubs has significantly improved, with the amount of small fwd role players available at the moment we can afford to be smart with how we recruit this off season.

 

[Sam The Doc]

Daniher will get to Syd and Papley will get to us

We may have to hand in our 2019 and 2020 firsts with 2 seconds and Cameron in return

That is a lot to give up.