Opinion Can Dustin Martin be the GOAT? (Answer: no)

Remove this Banner Ad

Martin sure benefits from losing a whole bunch of bad finals due to starting it in 2016.

The main argument for Martin though is still the number of elite goals/disposals seasons yeah? Remind me how many 20 disposal 2 goal a game seasons Dusty has had, and how many Lethal has had.

Here are the averages if you include ALL of Martin’s finals:

Martin : 4.94 (16 finals)
Petracca: 2.70 (10)
Danger: 2.42 (19)
Sidey: 2.42 (12)
Bont: 2.36 (11)
DeGoey: 2.00 (14)
Selwood: 1.37 (19)
Pendles: 1.36 (14)



Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com
 
Here are the averages if you include ALL of Martin’s finals:

Martin : 4.94 (16 finals)
Petracca: 2.70 (10)
Danger: 2.42 (19)
Sidey: 2.42 (12)
Bont: 2.36 (11)
DeGoey: 2.00 (14)
Selwood: 1.37 (19)
Pendles: 1.36 (14)



Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com
You didn't say how many seasons he averaged 2 goals/20 disposals. It must be a lot for him to be GOAT. At least a dozen like Lethal right?
 

Log in to remove this ad.

I mean for starters you said he was BOG or close for all but one game in the 3 premierships. Twice he didn't receive any votes. I'm just trying to figure out which of those games he was just about BOG in. Slicing out 2018 or indeed 2022 which was still practically the same side is as stupid as if I tried to exclude 2008 and 2010 for Bartel's finals or something.

You also said he averaged 24 disposals, 1 goal and 1 assist in losing finals he "didn't have an excuse for". This is a truly pathetic attempt at a save-face. He averages 20 disposals, 0.3 goals and 0.8 goal assists in losing finals. As an ultra attacking midfielder who rotates or sits forward plenty too. 4.3 disposals and 0.8 goals down on his career average.

5 out of 16 finals in Martin's career he was outright BOG. So on average just over once every two finals series he played in, mostly down to a stacked 2020. Twice he was close as he shared the honours with a teammate. Two more times he was in the votes and 7 times he wasn't in the best 8 players on the ground.

It's not a flawless record. He caught fire when Richmond did and did nothing of note in the other finals series except one good showing Vs mighty Hawthorn in 2018.

You really are struggling. Dusty has been BOG or near BOG in 9 of the 10 finals Richmond won in his career, exactly as I said.

2017 QF PF GF = Premiership, Ayres Medal, Smith Medal

2018 QF

2019 QF GF = Premiership, Ayres medal, Smith Medal

2020 SF PF GF = Premiership, Ayres Medal, Smith Medal

Of the 9 games Richmond needed to win to secure their 3 flags Dusty was BOG or near BOG in 8 of them. It takes a special kind of gimp to try to twist that into something that doesn't set Dusty apart from any other player in terms of finals performance in the known history of the game. But then it also takes a special species of gimp to accuse some one who is revealing facts of lying, whilst trying ever conceivable way possible to mislead people.

But you are certainly determined to be that person. :)

Dusty outright BOG just over once for every two finals series he has played in you say. You better let us know if that is good, bad or whatever it is. Apart from being wrong that is.
 
Last edited:
You didn't say how many seasons he averaged 2 goals/20 disposals. It must be a lot for him to be GOAT. At least a dozen like Lethal right?

In case you hadn’t noticed the game has changed… haven’t had a century goal kicker since 2008… in fact nobody 90+. In Lethal’s career from 1969-1985 there were 18 x centuries and another 9 x 90+ goalkickers.

So comparing goals in today’s era of team defences and almost no 1v1 contests with another where Lethal never dealt with multiple defenders or a crowded forward line is pretty pointless.

It’s like me saying Martin averages 0.78 Brownlow votes per game and Lethal 0.57 per game … a comprehensive win! But the game has changed so it’s not really relevant.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com
 
In case you hadn’t noticed the game has changed… haven’t had a century goal kicker since 2008… in fact nobody 90+. In Lethal’s career from 1969-1985 there were 18 x centuries and another 9 x 90+ goalkickers.

So comparing goals in today’s era of team defences and almost no 1v1 contests with another where Lethal never dealt with multiple defenders or a crowded forward line is pretty pointless.

It’s like me saying Martin averages 0.78 Brownlow votes per game and Lethal 0.57 per game … a comprehensive win! But the game has changed so it’s not really relevant.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com
You can just say how many seasons he had 20 and 2.
 
Martin’s career seems to be confined to being elite from 2016-20 but well behind his contemporaries outside of that ‘spike’. So his ‘peak’ was better than almost all, but not his overall consistency across a long career.

Here are comparisons with his contemporaries and some superstars of yesteryear after removing all players ‘best 5’ seasons, so we can get at least some idea of how true the narrative is - for all players it was at least 9 x seasons and 115+ games of data:

So taking OUT each players best 5 x seasons (removing Martin’s 2016-2020):

Average disposals:
Pendles: 24.7
Selwood: 23.5
Martin: 23.1
Buckley: 22.7
GAJ: 22.4
Fyfe: 21.9
Danger: 21.2
Judd: 21.1
Voss: 20.1

Average goals:
GAJ: 1.19
Martin: 1.12
Buckley: 0.98
Danger: 0.87
Judd: 0.81
Voss: 0.77
Fyfe: 0.70
Pendles: 0.44
Selwood: 0.39

Brownlow votes:
Fyfe: 0.57
GAJ: 0.56
Martin: 0.53
Danger: 0.53
Judd: 0.51
Selwood: 0.48
Pendles: 0.47
Buckley: 0.46
Voss: 0.34

Coaches votes (they began in 2006 so not relevant for all players):
Fyfe: 2.12
Pendles: 2.00
Danger: 1.93
Martin: 1.90
Selwood: 1.88

So when looking at coaches votes and Brownlow votes, the margins between the 5 where both metrics can be analysed are really fairly negligible. Fyfe has an edge in both, but he has also played only 115 games outside his ‘best 5’ seasons. For other players in games played it’s:

Martin: 176
Pendles: 262
GAJ: 244
Danger: 204
Selwood: 233
Judd: 166
Voss: 170
Buckley: 178
Fyfe: 115

I also accept averages are likely to drop a little for players still playing.

Martin also doesn’t lack in regards to stats. Of course he has more goals than most as he plays more forward, but we also know Brownlow votes and coaches votes favour pure mids. The lion’s share of votes also go to winning teams… Martin’s stats and votes are as part of a team that has never won a final and finished:

15th
12th
12th
7th
8th
7th
12th
7th
13th

So does Martin’s career ‘outside a few great years’ stack up? You be the judge.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

I just checked all records since the competition started and no player has a dozen seasons where they averaged 20 disposals + 2 goals.

Case dismissed.
72-83 looks like 20 and 2 to me every year. I think maybe 2 goals short in 1980 and 3 goals short in 71. Depending on your source.

With a tiny bit of rounding that looks like 13 seasons to me. Who else has done anything even close?

How many has Dusty done? At least 5 right?
 
72-83 looks like 20 and 2 to me every year. I think maybe 2 goals short in 1980 and 3 goals short in 71. Depending on your source.

With a tiny bit of rounding that looks like 13 seasons to me. Who else has done anything even close?

How many has Dusty done? At least 5 right?

What a shame he couldn't kick straight. Dusty kicked 19 goals 2 behinds in a preposterous run of uber-accuracy in finals to lead the Tigers to their famous b2b flags in 2019-20. And you just had to see most of those goals. :hearteyes:

I just asked Dusty to make his case, he showed me 3 Norms, 3 Ayreses, and his all time record of being outscored by the whole opposition teams across 3 Grand Finals by only 2.66 goals per Grand Final - whilst playing mainly midfield. You got someone that beats any of those?
 
Last edited:
I just asked Dusty to make his case, he showed me 3 Norms, 3 Ayreses, and his all time record of being outscored by the whole opposition teams across 3 Grand Finals by only 2.66 goals per Grand Final - whilst playing mainly midfield. You got someone that beats any of those?
So, no seasons of 20/2, just some random awards, some of which were invented long after most of the greats had retired.

Lol. Cute.
 
What a shame he couldn't kick straight. Dusty kicked 19 goals 2 behinds in a preposterous run of uber-accuracy in finals to lead the Tigers to their famous b2b flags in 2019-20. And you just had to see most of those goals. :hearteyes:

I just asked Dusty to make his case, he showed me 3 Norms, 3 Ayreses, and his all time record of being outscored by the whole opposition teams across 3 Grand Finals by only 2.66 goals per Grand Final - whilst playing mainly midfield. You got someone that beats any of those?

So now he gets credit for the Richmond defence. Truly a remarkable player
 
You can just say how many seasons he had 20 and 2.

Martin has never averaged 20+ and 2+. In the last 12-years … you know, modern footy, nobody has done it.

How many times was Lethal voted BOG by the umpires? 36 times or 11.9% of games. For Martin it’s 42 or 15.4% of games. Wowsers, that’s a decent gap.

Or what about voted in best 3 in the ground? Martin 35.9% of times. Lethal 23.4%. Gee, that’s an enormous gap when comparing the same stats.

How can that be ? It’s almost like certain stats and data changes between era’s, isn’t it?

But against their contemporaries and in the immediate aftermath of a game, an independent judge said Martin was in the best-3 players 35.9% of times he played versus just 23.4% for Lethal. Lethal must have been the ‘icing on the cake’ to his teammates great work a little more than I remember to be overlooked completely in 76.6% of games he played…..

Of course none of that is true … but it’s pretty easy to see how some data points from era to era are not really all that relevant.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com
 
So now he gets credit for the Richmond defence. Truly a remarkable player

Or credit for being able to kick so many goals in big games for a team who defends the way Richmond did....

Either the team was remarkable, or Dusty was, or both. Seeing as the great luminaries here have ruled Richmond the weakest dynasty team in history, I think you are by implication saying Dusty is also the greatest player in history. So you must remember PB, it is not me, but you, who has made that implication. :)

You see PB, I searched those great Swans defensive unit teams and the greats Barry Hall, Michael O'Loughlin and Nick Davis couldn't get within a Swan's roar of Dusty's Grand Final goal kicking feats. So I went to the incredible defensive unit team that was St Kilda in your golden era of football(not mine, yours) and Goddard, Riewoldt, N, and the Schneider Man couldn't get near it. So I checked back on the great Blues backline of their triple flag dynasty teams of 79, 81, 82. And you guessed it, much like those other much feted defensive units, couldn't get a goal kicker near what Dusty did. So I went all the way back to the great Collingwood teams in the Gordon Coventry era. The revered Coventry tried valiantly, but couldn't manage getting within an average of 6 goals of opposition teams in his Grand Finals despite some shockingly low scoring games. And of course Mr Coventry had the distinct advantage of being permanently stationed at Full Forward in front of the "greatest team in history," where our Mr Martin was given the small handicap of spending 65% of his game time in the midfield in "the worst dynasty team in history." No matter, Dusty still managed to somehow pull through that with the smallest goal deficit to the whole opposition team of any player in history to play multiple Grand Finals.

Did I mention this was in the fully professional era 18 team, 18 fully funded football departments, 17 opposition teams with video students and large coaching panels trying to work out how to stop Dusty 3 times over? And when the AFL finals process had selected THE BEST of these teams and pitted them in Grand Finals against the one and only GOAT, they couldn't find teams good enough to outscore Dusty by more than 2.66 goals per Grand Final on average. And this of course while Dustin the Unbelievable was playing mainly midfield.

It is as well I will never have great-grandchildren PB. Because there is no possible way they would even believe me if I told them this. o_O
 
I mean for starters you said he was BOG or close for all but one game in the 3 premierships. Twice he didn't receive any votes. I'm just trying to figure out which of those games he was just about BOG in. Slicing out 2018 or indeed 2022 which was still practically the same side is as stupid as if I tried to exclude 2008 and 2010 for Bartel's finals or something.

You also said he averaged 24 disposals, 1 goal and 1 assist in losing finals he "didn't have an excuse for". This is a truly pathetic attempt at a save-face. He averages 20 disposals, 0.3 goals and 0.8 goal assists in losing finals. As an ultra attacking midfielder who rotates or sits forward plenty too. 4.3 disposals and 0.8 goals down on his career average.

5 out of 16 finals in Martin's career he was outright BOG. So on average just over once every two finals series he played in, mostly down to a stacked 2020. Twice he was close as he shared the honours with a teammate. Two more times he was in the votes and 7 times he wasn't in the best 8 players on the ground.

It's not a flawless record. He caught fire when Richmond did and did nothing of note in the other finals series except one good showing Vs mighty Hawthorn in 2018.

So Martin was voted by the coaches to be BOG or equal BOG in 7 of the 16 x finals he has played? Let’s see how that compares to others since coaches votes started (and we will include Martin’s 3 x finals before the voting started):

Voted BOG or equal BOG in a final by the coaches:

Martin: 43.8%
Sidey: 16.7
Danger: 15.8
DeGoey: 14.3
Petracca: 10.0
Bont: 9.1
Selwood: 5.2
Pendles: Never

And what about voted in the best 2 x players on the ground?:

Martin: 56.3
Danger: 26.3
Petracca: 20.0
Bont: 18.2
Sidey: 16.7
DeGoey: 14.3
Selwood: 10.5
Pendles: Never



Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com
 
Or credit for being able to kick so many goals in big games for a team who defends the way Richmond did....

Either the team was remarkable, or Dusty was, or both. Seeing as the great luminaries here have ruled Richmond the weakest dynasty team in history, I think you are by implication saying Dusty is also the greatest player in history. So you must remember PB, it is not me, but you, who has made that implication. :)

You see PB, I searched those great Swans defensive unit teams and the greats Barry Hall, Michael O'Loughlin and Nick Davis couldn't get within a Swan's roar of Dusty's Grand Final goal kicking feats. So I went to the incredible defensive unit team that was St Kilda in your golden era of football(not mine, yours) and Goddard, Riewoldt, N, and the Schneider Man couldn't get near it. So I checked back on the great Blues backline of their triple flag dynasty teams of 79, 81, 82. And you guessed it, much like those other much feted defensive units, couldn't get a goal kicker near what Dusty did. So I went all the way back to the great Collingwood teams in the Gordon Coventry era. The revered Coventry tried valiantly, but couldn't manage getting within an average of 6 goals of opposition teams in his Grand Finals despite some shockingly low scoring games. And of course Mr Coventry had the distinct advantage of being permanently stationed at Full Forward in front of the "greatest team in history," where our Mr Martin was given the small handicap of spending 65% of his game time in the midfield in "the worst dynasty team in history." No matter, Dusty still managed to somehow pull through that with the smallest goal deficit to the whole opposition team of any player in history to play multiple Grand Finals.

Did I mention this was in the fully professional era 18 team, 18 fully funded football departments, 17 opposition teams with video students and large coaching panels trying to work out how to stop Dusty 3 times over? And when the AFL finals process had selected THE BEST of these teams and pitted them in Grand Finals against the one and only GOAT, they couldn't find teams good enough to outscore Dusty by more than 2.66 goals per Grand Final on average. And this of course while Dustin the Unbelievable was playing mainly midfield.

It is as well I will never have great-grandchildren PB. Because there is no possible way they would even believe me if I told them this. o_O

Glad it was you and not me who bothered. Couldn’t be more pleased for you.
 
Glad it was you and not me who bothered. Couldn’t be more pleased for you.

You say...through gritted teeth. :tearsofjoy:

Isn't it odd how everybody in the "no" camp has to evade, deny, or dismiss or diminish Dusty's many unique meritorious achievements.

I mean you must have read about that and thought, "you know what, that is ****ing unbelievably impressive a midfielder only being outscored by the whole opposition teams by 8 goals across 3 Grand Finals. But I am in the "no" camp, so I will just try anything I can to deflect away from this astonishing achievement that has not been bettered in the whole 127 year history of the competition by any of the best forwards in history, Coleman, Hudson, Carey, Dick Lee, Coventry, Todd, nor any of the greatest players, Matthews, Reynolds, Stewart, Bunton and definitely not Ablett Junior....and in fact in Gary Ablett Senior's "greatest Grand Final display ever" he got no closer than 12 goals to the opposition team, and that was a single game, it only gets worse when you average it out across his 4 Grand Finals - over 16 goals per Grand Final seeing you asked. :) Dusty averages within 2.66 goals of his 3 Grand Final opponents WHOLE TEAMS. Nobody else in history from any other club you choose to mention is anywhere near it. Darren Jarman, not within cooee. Isaac "Norm" Smith, not within the same solar system. Chapman, Seagull Johnson, not in the same universe. Nobody is.

So you know, you can sort of concede the point without completely selling out on the "no" camp. You could just say maybe that is incredible what Dusty achieved in those 3 Grand Finals, he is clearly the Grand Final GOAT at the very least.
 

Remove this Banner Ad

Opinion Can Dustin Martin be the GOAT? (Answer: no)

Remove this Banner Ad

Back
Top