Caligo
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Nick daicos is the goat triggerer and he has barely even started his career.
Opinion Can Dustin Martin be the GOAT? (Answer: no)
- Thread starter adammania9
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Daicos is about to turn 21. Martin in the season he commenced as a 19yo, 2011, signed his card for the following:
22 of 22 games
22 disposal average without a kick-in being counted.
33 goals and 20 goal assists.
3rd club best and fairest.
I think he had a few clues.
In his first 3 H&A seasons, Martin collected 77 coaches votes.Daicos is about to turn 21. Martin in the season he commenced as a 19yo, 2011, signed his card for the following:
22 of 22 games
22 disposal average without a kick-in being counted.
33 goals and 20 goal assists.
3rd club best and fairest.
I think he had a few clues.
Daicos just had 99 in his second H&A season alone and he missed a few games.
Despite those games missed he finished equal 2nd in the B&F in a premiership team rather than 3rd in a garbage side.
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Lordy is got som3 good tattoos..
Noidnadroj
Norm Smith Medallist
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In year two in a garbage team Martin averaged 22 touches and 1.5 goals per game. You know how many players did that in 2023? None.
2022? None.
2021? None.
2020? None.
2019? None.
2018? None.
2017? Martin, Danger and Zorko.
So Naicos had a great second year … probably the best in the AFL era.
In a garbage team playing mid-fwd Martin got 45 coaches votes, finished top-3 B&F and a disposal/goal combo that hasn’t been achieved for 7-seasons. Makes you wonder what he’d have done playing mid-fwd in the Premiership team given what he achieved as part of a garbage team …. wowsers.
And would Naicos have got 99 coaches votes and dominated when surrounded by kids as the Tiger team was filled with in 2011….. hmmmmm.
Was Naicos’s second year better than Martin’s second year? Yes.
Was Martin’s second year better than almost any other players second year? Yes.
Just because Martin’s second year wasn’t as good as Naicos’s it doesn’t mean it wasn’t outstanding for a second year player.
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Caligo
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Is it easier or harder to get coaches votes in a good team? Yes you win more so your team gets more votes, but you also have more competition for those votes.
I feel like the difference wouldn't be much.
There are some stats where being in a good team really helps (score involvements the most obvious example) but I am not at all sure coaches votes is one of them.
Well I mean Martin DID play in 3 premierships aged 24-27 (in his prime) and only bettered 99 votes once. I would buy your argument about it being easier to vote and score heavily when your side are a dominant force but you have refused to consider that for Martin's best few seasons and 3 strong finals series - the latter in which Richmond were more dominant than Collingwood's H&A this season.
Once again you use the arbitrary and rudimentary goal plus disposal cut off that entirely suits a hybrid midfielder/forward. It's a combination nobody cares about when you bring it up to them and is never going to go close to simply being rated in the top few players in the comp by coaches and Brownlow votes etc.
My post was in response to RUNVS suggesting Martin was clueless at 19.
If you were of sufficient character, you could simply have liked my post and acknowledged that suggestion is a long way from the truth.
The biggest troll on the forum having a cry of despair against disingenuous arguments is the most clever thing you've ever come up with, if you were going for the most ironic post of all time. The "sufficient character" finale was a nice touch indeed. Well done.
Greatest of all time
Leigh Matthews
4 Premierships
8 B&F
24.97 Disposals/game
2.76 Goals/game
Greatest of AFL era
Gary Ablett Jr
2 Premierships
6 B&F
26.17 Disposals/game
1.25 Goals/game
Greatest Richmond Player of all time
Kevin Bartlett
5 Premierships
5 B&F
24.64 Disposals/game
1.93 Goals/game
Great player of AFL era
Dustin Martin
3 Premierships
2 B&F
25.68 Disposals/game
1.13 Goals/Game
Leigh Matthews
4 Premierships
8 B&F
24.97 Disposals/game
2.76 Goals/game
Greatest of AFL era
Gary Ablett Jr
2 Premierships
6 B&F
26.17 Disposals/game
1.25 Goals/game
Greatest Richmond Player of all time
Kevin Bartlett
5 Premierships
5 B&F
24.64 Disposals/game
1.93 Goals/game
Great player of AFL era
Dustin Martin
3 Premierships
2 B&F
25.68 Disposals/game
1.13 Goals/Game
- Feb 27, 2011
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That's indefensible from the stat parroters in here. Nice post, incredibly salty irrelevant stat dumps incoming.
Caligo
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Bud would like a word about the greatest player of the AFL era tag.
He's close. I have him at number 4 on my list of all time.
Caligo
Premiership Player
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The bud vs gaj debate is really interesting I think. What sways it for me is one thing: in this millenium, bud is further ahead of other key forwards than gaj is ahead of other mid/forwards.
To put it another way, I think Dusty is closer to GAJ than St Nick (or whoever you think the second best key forward since carey collapsed in 2001) is to Bud.
In the other hand, if you are including Wayne Carey then I can't really separate Carey vs Franklin, and so GAJ wins because no other mid/forward has been his equal.
Ablett Junior finals: disposal ave 23, goal + goal assist ave 1.32, finals awards zero. Top 4 finishes 7, Premierships 2.
Franklin finals: disposal average 14, goal + goal assist average 3.4, finals awards zero. Top 4 finishes 8, Premierships 2.
Dustin Martin finals: disposal average 22, goal + goal assist average 2.8, finals awards 3 x Norm Smith Medals, 3 x Gary Ayres Medals. Top 4 finishes 4. Premierships 3.
When compared to Ablett Jnr in finals Dusty has 4% less disposals, 113% more goals + assists, 50% more flags despite Ablett having 75% more top 4 finishes, and infinitely more finals awards.
When compared to Franklin in finals, Dusty has 57% more disposals, 18% less goals + assists, 50% more flags despite Franklin having 100% more top 4 finishes. And infinitely more finals awards.
I had to include all finals there because if you just include the finals that matter most, Preliminary and Grand Finals, the comparisons get x rated.
I checked the greatest dynasty threads and Ablett and Franklin definitely played in stronger teams than Dusty. I checked the greatest players of this century and or AFL era threads and Ablett and Franklin are definitely way better players than Dusty. On those threads daylight is even better than Dusty, but nowhere near as good as Ablett or Franklin.
So I am now pretty certain you have to be an inferior player to play better in finals. And by extension the worst teams win flags. This theory neatly explains 2 things:
1. Why Dusty has the best known finals record of any player in history, and
2. Collingwood 2023.
Noidnadroj
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Yes, sorry I used disposals and goals to establish the performance of a player assigned to get the ball and kick goals… how silly of me.
Paul Chapman played a similar role as part of Geelong’s dominant 2011 team, yeah? He’s a player you rate very highly and think is underrated from your previous posts… I wonder how Martin’s second season in a garbage team compared to Chappy in one of the most dominant teams we’ve seen in modern times:
Martin 2011 v Chapman 2011:
Disposals: 22.1 v 23.5
Goals: 1.5 v 1.0
GA’s: 0.9 v 0.9
I50’s: 4.2 v 4.1
CP’s: 8.8 v 8.3
CMarks: 0.6 v 0.4
Clangers: 2.7 v 2.4
Clearances: 3.7 v 3.1
R50’s: 2.5 v 1.4
Tackles: 3.3 v 4.5
Coaches : 45 v 29
B’Low: 12 v 9
So by most measures Martin in his second year was superior to Chapman as a 29yo at the peak of his powers in a dominant team.
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Chapman and Martin are a better comparison than Martin and Ablett, I'm glad I'm starting to have an influence on you after all this time.
Goals and disposals alone as an analysis is just rubbish, you're aware of that. Daicos had less goals than 2011 Martin and had a million more coaches votes.
Comparing midfielders, what we'll be looking for are things like B&F victories and top 3/5 placements in each of the league MVP, Coaches Association Award and Brownlow. You already know which way those heavily lean as a trio over many many years. And he was also that sides best performer in finals and premierships as well.
Percel
Victorian’s love a good potato scallop
After 204 pages, its clear that Dusty is not the GOAT, he's clearly the Greatest Alltime Grand Finalist
GAGF
GAGF
Buddy is on a much more even playing field with Ablett than Martin.
What's curious about Buddy though despite his incredible career, is he didn't win a couple of the awards that forwards have won over the past 30 years - the League MVP and Coaches Association Award. And I guess some of that is partly explained by his career intersecting prime Ablett's so neatly. But he was the clear standout forward and Ablett the clear standout midfielder. Defenders of the past 20 or 30 years have ran a closer race I'd say and the top forwards/mids will just always be rated a bit higher.
How is this thread still going? Just let it die....
Caligo
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People have called me so many things on BF. Never that though.
