Opinion Can Dustin Martin be the GOAT? (Answer: no)

[PhatBoy]

You say...through gritted teeth.

Isn't it odd how everybody in the "no" camp has to evade, deny, or dismiss or diminish Dusty's many unique meritorious achievements.

I mean you must have read about that and thought, "you know what, that is ******* unbelievably impressive a midfielder only being outscored by the whole opposition teams by 8 goals across 3 Grand Finals. But I am in the "no" camp, so I will just try anything I can to deflect away from this astonishing achievement that has not been bettered in the whole 127 year history of the competition by any of the best forwards in history, Coleman, Hudson, Carey, Dick Lee, Coventry, Todd, nor any of the greatest players, Matthews, Reynolds, Stewart, Bunton and definitely not Ablett Junior....and in fact in Gary Ablett Senior's "greatest Grand Final display ever" he got no closer than 12 goals to the opposition team, and that was a single game, it only gets worse when you average it out across his 4 Grand Finals - over 16 goals per Grand Final seeing you asked. Dusty averages within 2.66 goals of his 3 Grand Final opponents WHOLE TEAMS. Nobody else in history from any other club you choose to mention is anywhere near it. Darren Jarman, not within cooee. Isaac "Norm" Smith, not within the same solar system. Chapman, Seagull Johnson, not in the same universe. Nobody is.

So you know, you can sort of concede the point without completely selling out on the "no" camp. You could just say maybe that is incredible what Dusty achieved in those 3 Grand Finals, he is clearly the Grand Final GOAT at the very least.

Awesome job

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Awesome job

I take that as total acceptance of the proposition that Dustin Martin is in fact, the GOAT. It took you a while PB but welcome to the "yes" camp, where you will find you can fraternise with a much better quality of individual, amongst the many other benefits such as removal of all bitterness from your life, total clarity, and knowing that you are right.

 

[PhatBoy]

I take that as total acceptance of the proposition that Dustin Martin is in fact, the GOAT. It took you a while PB but welcome to the "yes" camp, where you will find you can fraternise with a much better quality of individual, amongst the many other benefits such as removal of all bitterness from your life, total clarity, and knowing that you are right.

No I’m just impressed that you’re still thrashing it enough to bother looking this shit up.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

No I’m just impressed that you’re still thrashing it enough to bother looking this s**t up.

You must be, because you keep coming back.

 

[H00t]

Martin has never averaged 20+ and 2+. In the last 12-years … you know, modern footy, nobody has done it.

How many times was Lethal voted BOG by the umpires? 36 times or 11.9% of games. For Martin it’s 42 or 15.4% of games. Wowsers, that’s a decent gap.

Or what about voted in best 3 in the ground? Martin 35.9% of times. Lethal 23.4%. Gee, that’s an enormous gap when comparing the same stats.

How can that be ? It’s almost like certain stats and data changes between era’s, isn’t it?

But against their contemporaries and in the immediate aftermath of a game, an independent judge said Martin was in the best-3 players 35.9% of times he played versus just 23.4% for Lethal. Lethal must have been the ‘icing on the cake’ to his teammates great work a little more than I remember to be overlooked completely in 76.6% of games he played…..

Of course none of that is true … but it’s pretty easy to see how some data points from era to era are not really all that relevant.


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If Matthews was given the voting Martin has he’d have won the most Brownlow’s ever.

The umps voted differently back then. Take Matthews getting only 3 votes for his 1978 year.

 

[Noidnadroj]

If Matthews was given the voting Martin has he’d have won the most Brownlow’s ever.

The umps voted differently back then. Take Matthews getting only 3 votes for his 1978 year.

That was my point. The game changes. It was said the fact Lethal has lots of seasons of 20+ and 2+, but Martin has none as a ‘gotcha’ moment. Except not a single player has achieved that since 2011. Just as not a single player has kicked 100-goals in 15-years. 100-goals was kicked 18 times during Lethal’s career from 1969-1985.

The way the game is played and goals are kicked has changed, and the way Brownlow votes are distributed has changed.

KB .. in the same era as Lethal and also playing in a top-team, achieved 20+ / 2+ 4 times. (He achieved 19+ / 1.9+ 7 times).

Garry Wilson in the same era achieved 20+ and 1.8+ 7 times in just 14 seasons.

Rod Ashman did 20+ and 2+ twice. He did 19 / 1.8 5 times…. Ashman was a fine player, but no superstar.

Here are some others to have achieved it or very close to it:

Kekovich : 19.4 / 3.5 in 1969
Bissett: 26 / 2.37 in 1969
Bedford: 24 / 2.17 in 1970
Bisset: 21 / 2.14 in 1970
Murphy: 26 / 2 in 1970
Bill Ryan: 20 / 2.1 in 1971
Breen: 20 / 2.06 in 1971
David Clarke: 21 / 3.06 in 1972
Lethal : 23 / 2.14 in 1972

I stopped at 1972, but it’s pretty clear that 20+ / 2+ was ‘relatively’ common in Lethal’s era. And it hasn’t been achieved once since 2011 in modern footy so it’s really not very relevant … just like Brownlow votes between era’s cannot be compared.





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[Caligo]

That was my point. The game changes. It was said the fact Lethal has lots of seasons of 20+ and 2+, but Martin has none as a ‘gotcha’ moment. Except not a single player has achieved that since 2011. Just as not a single player has kicked 100-goals in 15-years. 100-goals was kicked 18 times during Lethal’s career from 1969-1985.

The way the game is played and goals are kicked has changed, and the way Brownlow votes are distributed has changed.

KB .. in the same era as Lethal and also playing in a top-team, achieved 20+ / 2+ 4 times. (He achieved 19+ / 1.9+ 7 times).

Garry Wilson in the same era achieved 20+ and 1.8+ 7 times in just 14 seasons.

Rod Ashman did 20+ and 2+ twice. He did 19 / 1.8 5 times…. Ashman was a fine player, but no superstar.

Here are some others to have achieved it or very close to it:

Kekovich : 19.4 / 3.5 in 1969
Bissett: 26 / 2.37 in 1969
Bedford: 24 / 2.17 in 1970
Bisset: 21 / 2.14 in 1970
Murphy: 26 / 2 in 1970
Bill Ryan: 20 / 2.1 in 1971
Breen: 20 / 2.06 in 1971
David Clarke: 21 / 3.06 in 1972
Lethal : 23 / 2.14 in 1972

I stopped at 1972, but it’s pretty clear that 20+ / 2+ was ‘relatively’ common in Lethal’s era. And it hasn’t been achieved once since 2011 in modern footy so it’s really not very relevant … just like Brownlow votes between era’s cannot be compared.





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Matthews basically did it 13 years in a row if you round up by a couple of goals in 2 seasons. Nobody else has ever been close. Not in his era, not in any era.

To try to compare that with some subjective awards is an utter joke.

Stopping in 1972 before Lethal even really got started is even more ludicrous, but par for the course with you.

 

[RUNVS]

I just don't get why this topic matters so much to Richmond fans. It is like they are putting all their self worth into trying to convince everyone that Martin is the bestest ever.

It really feels like a "my dad can beat up your dad" situation in the playground, but even more pathetic as these Richmond fans are grown adults.

 

[Caligo]

I just don't get why this topic matters so much to Richmond fans. It is like they are putting all their self worth into trying to convince everyone that Martin is the bestest ever.

It really feels like a "my dad can beat up your dad" situation in the playground, but even more pathetic as these Richmond fans are grown adults.

Yeah, but I also kinda get it. I think Franklin is clearly the best key forward of the 21st century and would strongly argue against anyone who disagrees.

 

[Noidnadroj]

Matthews basically did it 13 years in a row if you round up by a couple of goals in 2 seasons. Nobody else has ever been close. Not in his era, not in any era.

To try to compare that with some subjective awards is an utter joke.

Stopping in 1972 before Lethal even really got started is even more ludicrous, but par for the course with you.

And Martin has done 20+ and 1+ in 11 of his 14 season. No players in his era comes close to that either. So seems we are on the same page.


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[Caligo]

And Martin has done 20+ and 1+ in 11 of his 14 season. No players in his era comes close to that either. So seems we are on the same page.


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Oh, are you claiming martin is the best of his era or the best all time?

Not that he is the best of his era either of course, GAJ racked up a massive number of 20/1 seasons.

 

[Rich01]

I just don't get why this topic matters so much to Richmond fans.

I don’t get it either. But I find it equally amusing the main protagonists in this thread are Geelong fans.

 

[H00t]

That was my point. The game changes. It was said the fact Lethal has lots of seasons of 20+ and 2+, but Martin has none as a ‘gotcha’ moment. Except not a single player has achieved that since 2011. Just as not a single player has kicked 100-goals in 15-years. 100-goals was kicked 18 times during Lethal’s career from 1969-1985.

The way the game is played and goals are kicked has changed, and the way Brownlow votes are distributed has changed.

KB .. in the same era as Lethal and also playing in a top-team, achieved 20+ / 2+ 4 times. (He achieved 19+ / 1.9+ 7 times).

Garry Wilson in the same era achieved 20+ and 1.8+ 7 times in just 14 seasons.

Rod Ashman did 20+ and 2+ twice. He did 19 / 1.8 5 times…. Ashman was a fine player, but no superstar.

Here are some others to have achieved it or very close to it:

Kekovich : 19.4 / 3.5 in 1969
Bissett: 26 / 2.37 in 1969
Bedford: 24 / 2.17 in 1970
Bisset: 21 / 2.14 in 1970
Murphy: 26 / 2 in 1970
Bill Ryan: 20 / 2.1 in 1971
Breen: 20 / 2.06 in 1971
David Clarke: 21 / 3.06 in 1972
Lethal : 23 / 2.14 in 1972

I stopped at 1972, but it’s pretty clear that 20+ / 2+ was ‘relatively’ common in Lethal’s era. And it hasn’t been achieved once since 2011 in modern footy so it’s really not very relevant … just like Brownlow votes between era’s cannot be compared.





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Never mind 20 and 2 though. Matthews had 7 seasons of 20 and 3.

And missed it by one goal in 1975 where he also won the Coleman medal. While averaging 20 touches.

So you can say the game has changed but Matthews was so far ahead of the field when he played and compared to now.

Even compared to the game back then he was doing unprecedented things

 

[Caligo]

Never mind 20 and 2 though. Matthews had 7 seasons of 20 and 3.

And missed it by one goal in 1975 where he also won the Coleman medal. While averaging 20 touches.

So you can say the game has changed but Matthews was so far ahead of the field when he played and compared to now.

Even compared to the game back then he was doing unprecedented things

That season he had 500+ kicks and 90+ goals was pretty incredible.

 

[werdna78]

I don’t get it either. But I find it equally amusing the main protagonists in this thread are Geelong fans.

He's not even the best Richmond player of all time. That honour goes to Kevin Bartlett.

403 games
5 Premierships
5 Best and Fairest
22.76 Disposals a game
1.93 Goals a game

 

[Noidnadroj]

Oh, are you claiming martin is the best of his era or the best all time?

Not that he is the best of his era either of course, GAJ racked up a massive number of 20/1 seasons.

I’m just comparing players within the same era when talking stats involving goals. When not a single player has achieved 20+/2+ in 12 x seasons (GAJ never did it either), then it’s pretty clear it shouldn’t be used as a comparative marker between era’s. 20+ / 2+ was achieved in excess of 75 times between 1969-1985, compared to zero from 2012-2023.

And if we are purely talking 20/1, in modern times Martin has done it 11 times, GAJ 9 times and Danger 5 times. I don’t believe this proves anything definitive at all, but it’s an interesting stat as based on how often it is achieved, 20/1 is probably the equivalent of 20/2 in Lethal’s era.


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[Xtreme]

Dusty is easily the greatest player of the AFL era. People just refuse to accept it even with him swinging his multiple awards around!

 

[H00t]

I’m just comparing players within the same era when talking stats involving goals. When not a single player has achieved 20+/2+ in 12 x seasons (GAJ never did it either), then it’s pretty clear it shouldn’t be used as a comparative marker between era’s. 20+ / 2+ was achieved in excess of 75 times between 1969-1985, compared to zero from 2012-2023.

And if we are purely talking 20/1, in modern times Martin has done it 11 times, GAJ 9 times and Danger 5 times. I don’t believe this proves anything definitive at all, but it’s an interesting stat as based on how often it is achieved, 20/1 is probably the equivalent of 20/2 in Lethal’s era.


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How many had a 20 and 3 in Matthews time?

Also GAJ was pumping out seasons of 30 and 1.

GAJ and Danger also only just fell short of 30 and 2 seasons by 4 and 3 goals respectively.

 

[QuietB]

Why is this still a thread?

The answer is NO

 

[Gavin Excell]

Why is this still a thread?

The answer is NO

Because Tiger fans have a horrible abyss of nothing on the horizon

 

[Rich01]

Because Tiger fans have a horrible abyss of nothing on the horizon

Probably similar to why Cats fans are here for their club TBH.

 

[Noidnadroj]

Because Tiger fans have a horrible abyss of nothing on the horizon

You do realise 11 of your best-22 are 30+ in 2024 don’t you Gav? Wowsers …..


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[JackOutback]

Now now, both Geelong and Richmond are about to fall off a cliff

 

[ThatsjustDappa]

Now now, both Geelong and Richmond are about to fall off a cliff

I'm sure there's a thread somewhere about this regarding Geelong, been bumped a fair bit, will eventually ring true...

 

[Xtreme]

I'm sure there's a thread somewhere about this regarding Geelong, been bumped a fair bit, will eventually ring true...

They fell off the cliff in season 2023 - defending premiers to not even making the finals in the following season. Not even Hawthorn 2009 or Western Bulldogs in 2017 were that bad!