Neither is in any GOAT discussions. So not really sure it matters.
You come to a Dustin Martin GOAT discussion to say he is not in GOAT discussions. What are you actually doing here then?
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Neither is in any GOAT discussions. So not really sure it matters.
More Brownlow votes, coaches votes, B&Fs, AAs, higher AFL player ratings. Martin has a stronger catalogue of finals series which bridges the gap.Martin’s H&A consistency is questioned by many. Danger has 8 x AA guernseys so a H&A Goliath.
I’ve previously removed Martin’s 4 x AA years, and in the other 10 x seasons of his career (199 games) he averages 23.47 disposals and 1.15 goals. I’ve now taken Danger’s best 4 x seasons off his stats, and in his remaining 12 x seasons (231 games), he averages 21.73 disposals and 0.88 goals.
So why would anyone query Martin’s on-going consistent excellence but revel in Dangers, when once we remove their ‘peak’ 4 x seasons Martin’s record is head and shoulders superior to Danger?
It doesn’t match the narrative everyone has of Dusty being elite for a short time and Danger being elite for a lot longer thanks to his 8 x AA.
In the last 9 x years, 7 x players have averaged Martin’s 23+ and 1.1+ in a single season.
In 2023 alone, 9 x players averaged 21+ and 0.8+. In 2019 14 players did it.
So for some reason the narrative is that outside Dusty’s handful of elite seasons he wasn’t that great. But the facts shows that when removing Dusty’s best 4 x seasons, and removing Danger’s best 4 seasons, Martin has been a vastly superior player after removing their ‘peak’ years.
Disposals: 23.47 v 21.73
Goals: 1.15 v 0.88
It’s not even close.
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The answer of this thread has been a resounding no.You come to a Dustin Martin GOAT discussion to say he is not in GOAT discussions. What are you actually doing here then?
The awards don’t matter. They look nice, but ultimately mean nothing. How well the player played matters.
It’s the “most decorated” year. It’s not the best year. Leigh Matthews has that with his 1977 year. Martin’s 2017 is level with Matthews 1975, 1976, 1978, 1982, 1983 and 1984 years.
That’s 7 years equal with or better than Martin’s 2017. That’s why one year is no big deal. The very best do it repeatedly.
The answer of this thread has been a resounding no.
I just come hear to see you and a couple of other tigers supporters tie themselves in knots trying to come some way to try and justify something that simply isn’t the case.
It's been a resounding no, absolutely.I don't think there is anything "resounding" about the no camp.
Some think awards don't count.
Some think some awards count others don't depending on what Martin has won or not.
Some think the eye test is sufficient to know who is the best player ever. They purport to be able to watch a certain amount of a player play and this is enough to call him the best player ever.
Some think expert opinions matter, until the expert opinion is that Martin might be the best player ever.
Some think B&F's matter until it is pointed out the player they are trying to rate on the same level as Dusty has never finished top 5 then it matters at some clubs but not other clubs.
Some(seriously) think Dusty isn't actually that good it is just that the whole AFL just got really bad for 4 years while Dusty single handedly re-defined what it means to dominate finals.
Some think consistency matters but can't seem to explain away why a player as inconsistent as Martin has been so consistently elite for so many years.
No siree, there is nothing resounding about any of that, it all looks rather confused to me. If you want resounding, you need to take in some of the work of the yes camp. Then maybe have a meeting of all the good and great in the no camp and see if you clowns can actually make your mind the * up about exactly why Dustin Martin is not the GOAT.
If I’m judging team performance I’m judging how well the team went. If I’m judging individual performance I only go by how well the player performed.How well you played matters you say, but it doesn't matter if you played well enough to have the most awarded season ever, yep, makes sense.
If you hold that the most important thing in football is what the team achieves, then it follows the players who do most to make the team achieve success have done best. Nobody in history has an overwhelming case to say they did more than Dustin Martin in 2017 to make their team achieve success. Matthews was a truly great player and also built a resume of unique achievements and statistical records including being a great big game player in his career. But you don't have a better season than Martin did in 2017 by beating up on rubbish teams and then failing to win finals for your team.
Very resounding that everyone bar 3-4 die hard Martin fans have argued no.I don't think there is anything "resounding" about the no camp.
Some think awards don't count.
Some think some awards count others don't depending on what Martin has won or not.
Some think the eye test is sufficient to know who is the best player ever. They purport to be able to watch a certain amount of a player play and this is enough to call him the best player ever.
Some think expert opinions matter, until the expert opinion is that Martin might be the best player ever.
Some think B&F's matter until it is pointed out the player they are trying to rate on the same level as Dusty has never finished top 5 then it matters at some clubs but not other clubs.
Some(seriously) think Dusty isn't actually that good it is just that the whole AFL just got really bad for 4 years while Dusty single handedly re-defined what it means to dominate finals.
Some think consistency matters but can't seem to explain away why a player as inconsistent as Martin has been so consistently elite for so many years.
No siree, there is nothing resounding about any of that, it all looks rather confused to me. If you want resounding, you need to take in some of the work of the yes camp. Then maybe have a meeting of all the good and great in the no camp and see if you clowns can actually make your mind the * up about exactly why Dustin Martin is not the GOAT.
If I’m judging team performance I’m judging how well the team went. If I’m judging individual performance I only go by how well the player performed.
The tigers team won those finals and they win them even if Martin didn’t play.
So yeah lots of players did more to try (or succeed) in giving their team success. Either through having a better season or by having the winning play.
None of this matters though as the tigers team success doesn’t mean Martin played any better just as them getting defeated wouldn’t have meant he played worse.
You are equating team perfomance with individual perfomance again. The tigers team lifted and brought Martin along for the ride. Even during this time every time the team played poorly Martin’s perfomance dropped off.That just isn't knowable. But if you take Martin out of that 2017 Richmond team then at best you might get something roughly equivalent to Collingwood 2023. But that is just taking the 3 finals into consideration. From after round 13 of 2017, the unrated Richmond team needed to win 12 of 13 games to secure top 4 then win the flag. Martin's performance in those 13 games is not something I can recall being matched by any other player I have seen.
Richmond are not winning that flag if Dustin Martin wasn't there. You can probably fairly say that about quite a lot of other Premiership players over time. The difference is they weren't the best performed player in the league over the whole season with record votes, and best player in the finals series and Grand Final. Dusty was.
You are equating team perfomance with individual perfomance again. The tigers team lifted and brought Martin along for the ride. Even during this time every time the team played poorly Martin’s perfomance dropped off.
He wasn’t the driving force behind the improved perfomance. But he was the biggest benefactor.
Someone's been caught lying again.You say I am equating team performance with individual performance as if they are 2 totally independent factors. They are inextricably linked. The rest of what you wrote is just pure bullshit. If Richmond had to chose its first picked player to play in any of those games, it would have been Dusty. If the opponent had to choose 1 Richmond player to miss any of those games it would have been Dusty. Your statement has no more validity than someone saying Hawthorn lifted in Leigh Matthews' career and brought him along for the ride.
Dusty spent a lot of his time in crowded forward lines ahead of the ball in those big finals. When he was fit, and Richmond played well, he nailed them 3 priceless flags with unmatched finals performances. This happened 10 times and Dusty was BOG or near BOG in 9 of those. Nobody else has done that. In his other 6 finals where Richmond lost, he had reasonable alibis in 3 of them where he played as well as his fitness, preparation or inexperience might lead us to expect. It leaves 3 other losing finals he did not dominate. But even in those he amassed an average of about 24 disposals, and 1 goal + assist. In other words, higher than Scott Pendlebury's average finals output.
That puts into perspective just how ludicrous your post is.
Haha. I mean I get in your mind Dusty lifted and single handedly won the tigers the flag.You say I am equating team performance with individual performance as if they are 2 totally independent factors. They are inextricably linked. The rest of what you wrote is just pure bullshit. If Richmond had to chose its first picked player to play in any of those games, it would have been Dusty. If the opponent had to choose 1 Richmond player to miss any of those games it would have been Dusty. Your statement has no more validity than someone saying Hawthorn lifted in Leigh Matthews' career and brought him along for the ride.
Dusty spent a lot of his time in crowded forward lines ahead of the ball in those big finals. When he was fit, and Richmond played well, he nailed them 3 priceless flags with unmatched finals performances. This happened 10 times and Dusty was BOG or near BOG in 9 of those. Nobody else has done that. In his other 6 finals where Richmond lost, he had reasonable alibis in 3 of them where he played as well as his fitness, preparation or inexperience might lead us to expect. It leaves 3 other losing finals he did not dominate. But even in those he amassed an average of about 24 disposals, and 1 goal + assist. In other words, higher than Scott Pendlebury's average finals output.
That puts into perspective just how ludicrous your post is.
Since the turn of the century I'd say he's in the top three, behind GAJ and Buddy.
Within that same period, if there was a big final to be played he'd probably be the first picked. His finals record is ridiculous. IMO Dusty and Hodge were two amazing big finals performers, particularly in Grand Finals. I don't think I'd pick anyone else over those two.
Someone's been caught lying again.
Throughout Richmond's 2017-2020 dynasty Martin played in 12 finals.
The coaches nominated him outright BOG in the 2017 QF, 2019 GF, 2020 SF, 2020 PF and 2020 GF. 5 times out of 12 games. 3 in the COVID affected season that sadly people care less about. Slightly less than once per finals series until the big 2020 campaign.
In the 2017 PF he shared the honours with Rioli.
In the 2017 GF the coaches rated Houli higher.
In the 2018 QF the coaches rated Grimes higher.
In the losing 2018 PF he received no votes.
In the 2019 QF he shared the honours with Edwards.
In the 2019 PF he received no votes while Prestia and Lunch effectively secured the premiership in the only game of jeapordy.
In the losing 2020 QF he was a non factor.
In Richmond's last chance to extend the dynasty in 2022, a losing EF, he received no votes. Much like the pre dynasty finals performances in 3 consecutive seasons.
It was still a strong collection of finals, but your exaggerations as usual are eye roll inducing.
The only real games of serious jeapordy where it could be argued he was a critical factor were the last two games of 2020. Which makes that the best finals series he had. But plenty of champions over the years have been the crucial difference in some close finals. And plenty more performed much stronger when their side weren't dominant or even victorious.
Haha. I mean I get in your mind Dusty lifted and single handedly won the tigers the flag.
But this just isn’t the case. Team performance is about all 22-23 players performing together against the other 22-23 players. It’s about the teamwork, synergy and effort those players put in.
The facts are the tigers won most games very comfortably and the out of all the games that were close or the tigers lost Martin only really performed in 1 (could make it 2 at a stretch if you consider the 2020 GF close)
It’s definitely easier to play well when your teams on top. Martin has certainly proved that. A lot of it was the case of right place right time. A very, very good player playing in a team that’s comfortably the best at the time while having a game plan that allows him to roam free.
None of this brings him into any GOAT discussions though, which is what this thread is about. As much as you try to derail it.
Players don’t win flags teams do. It’s the team playing well that enabled Martin to do what he did.You are saying nothing.
All players rely heavily on their team-mates to achieve great team results in this sport. What we are really discussing is the degree to which a single player influences the team's performance as measured by the scoreboard. In key games and finals, no player with his playing deeds has had a greater influence on his team's finals fortunes than Dustin Martin did in that 2017-2020 period. The one important final in that period that Richmond lost was also the only time they radically under-performed to betting market expectations in their 12 finals over those 4 years. Dustin Martin played with a well known leg injury in that match and was clearly nowhere near his brilliant best for once.
2017-20
Dusty at his best: Richmond 10 finals victories, including 7 wins in must-win finals, in only 1 of these was Dusty not near BOG.
Dusty well below his best due to injury: Richmond enter the game about a 3 goal favourite and are beaten by 39 points in a must-win final, the only one of these the club lost in this period.
Dusty decent but not as highly influential as normal: Richmond are defeated by Brisbane by 15 points after starting a very slight favourite in the 2020 QF, and Richmond defeat Geelong by 19 points in the 2019 PF.
You seem to have it the wrong way around. But you have introduced a new concept. We all know some under-performing players get carried to Premierships by their teams. But you have bestowed upon us this new knowledge where a player can be carried to 3 Premierships by his team despite him being BOG or near BOG in 8 of the 9 finals his team had to win to secure those Premierships. Novel.
Players don’t win flags teams do. It’s the team playing well that enabled Martin to do what he did.
When the tigers played well it enabled Martin to shine. When the tigers played poorly Martin suffered. Not the other way around.
Lance Franklin in his first final had more say on his teams fortunes than any final Dusty had.
That’s not to say Dusty didn’t play well in finals, he did. You’ve just added so much mayo to it.
None of this gets to the real point though. There have been much better players than Dusty over the course of the last 150 years of football.
No way I want to see if Bigfooty can drag this out to 300 pages nowIs any particular player the GOAT?
A simple flow chart
Is the player Leigh Matthews?
- If yes, then he is the GOAT.
- If no, then he isn't.
Flow chart complete.
Players don’t win flags teams do. It’s the team playing well that enabled Martin to do what he did.
When the tigers played well it enabled Martin to shine. When the tigers played poorly Martin suffered. Not the other way around.
Lance Franklin in his first final had more say on his teams fortunes than any final Dusty had.
That’s not to say Dusty didn’t play well in finals, he did. You’ve just added so much mayo to it.
None of this gets to the real point though. There have been much better players than Dusty over the course of the last 150 years of football.
I mean for starters you said he was BOG or close for all but one game in the 3 premierships. Twice he didn't receive any votes. I'm just trying to figure out which of those games he was just about BOG in. Slicing out 2018 or indeed 2022 which was still practically the same side is as stupid as if I tried to exclude 2008 and 2010 for Bartel's finals or something.Yep. But what was the lie?
Most tenuous gotcha moment in the history of this website. What a ******* imbecile.
I mean for starters you said he was BOG or close for all but one game in the 3 premierships. Twice he didn't receive any votes. I'm just trying to figure out which of those games he was just about BOG in. Slicing out 2018 or indeed 2022 which was still practically the same side is as stupid as if I tried to exclude 2008 and 2010 for Bartel's finals or something.
You also said he averaged 24 disposals, 1 goal and 1 assist in losing finals he "didn't have an excuse for". This is a truly pathetic attempt at a save-face. He averages 20 disposals, 0.3 goals and 0.8 goal assists in losing finals. As an ultra attacking midfielder who rotates or sits forward plenty too. 4.3 disposals and 0.8 goals down on his career average.
5 out of 16 finals in Martin's career he was outright BOG. So on average just over once every two finals series he played in, mostly down to a stacked 2020. Twice he was close as he shared the honours with a teammate. Two more times he was in the votes and 7 times he wasn't in the best 8 players on the ground.
It's not a flawless record. He caught fire when Richmond did and did nothing of note in the other finals series except one good showing Vs mighty Hawthorn in 2018.
Martin sure benefits from losing a whole bunch of bad finals due to starting it in 2016.Obviously Ayres award votes have only been going since 2016, and here is some interesting data for average coaches votes per final since 2016:
Martin : 6.08 (13 finals)
Petracca: 2.70 (10)
Danger: 2.42 (19)
Sidey: 2.42 (12)
Bont: 2.36 (11)
DeGoey: 2.00 (14)
Selwood: 1.37 (19)
Pendles: 1.36 (14)
Of course Pendles, Selwood etc…would’ve gotten votes had the award existed 14-years ago …. but if we just look at Martin’s finals exploits compared to others who’ve been playing plenty of finals in the last 8-seasons since the award existed, it’s hard to comprehend the gap. And then ask why nobody else has been able to replicate anything even remotely similar in the same era against the same opposition…??
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