Opinion Can Dustin Martin be the GOAT? (Answer: no)

[Caligo]

dont take it as a compliment

Take it as constructive feedback

You seem disproportionately invested in this thread, maybe have a good long think about why

I take it as exactly what it is, an attempt to play the man because it is all you have.

 

[blaisee]

I take it as exactly what it is, an attempt to play the man because it is all you have.

wow you got me man, well done lol

back to the ignore list with the rest of your aliases

go touch some grass

 

[Noidnadroj]

Is it easier or harder to get coaches votes in a good team? Yes you win more so your team gets more votes, but you also have more competition for those votes.

I feel like the difference wouldn't be much.

There are some stats where being in a good team really helps (score involvements the most obvious example) but I am not at all sure coaches votes is one of them.

Not sure this stands up to the facts:

Here are coaches vote top-10 and top-20:

From 2018-23, so 6-years of data:

Top-10: 43 players from top-8 versus 17 from bottom 10. So 72% of players despite being only 45% of players

11-20: 39 players v 21. So 65%

So overall for top-20 placings it’s 82 from top-8 versus 38 from bottom 10. 68% of top-20 coming from top-8.

I ran the data for 2021-23 for top-21 to 40. (I couldn’t be bothered doing any more years)

It was 39 versus 21, so the exact same ratio as 11-20 where 65% come from top-8 teams.

Of course it’s not impossible to poll high coaches vote numbers in a poor team, but if you take just 2021-23, of the top-120 players (3 x top-40), 78 players come from top-8 teams versus 42 from bottom 10.

Given it’s 8 x teams v 10 x teams it’s a huge discrepancy.


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[Mr Meow]

Not sure this stands up to the facts:

Here are coaches vote top-10 and top-20:

From 2018-23, so 6-years of data:

Top-10: 43 players from top-8 versus 17 from bottom 10. So 72% of players despite being only 45% of players

11-20: 39 players v 21. So 65%

So overall for top-20 placings it’s 82 from top-8 versus 38 from bottom 10. 68% of top-20 coming from top-8.

I ran the data for 2021-23 for top-21 to 40. (I couldn’t be bothered doing any more years)

It was 39 versus 21, so the exact same ratio as 11-20 where 65% come from top-8 teams.

Of course it’s not impossible to poll high coaches vote numbers in a poor team, but if you take just 2021-23, of the top-120 players (3 x top-40), 78 players come from top-8 teams versus 42 from bottom 10.

Given it’s 8 x teams v 10 x teams it’s a huge discrepancy.


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This isn't a gotcha or anything, it's a genuine question.

With this in mind do you find Ablett's coaches and Brownlow votes averages and league MVP placements as more impressive at the lowly Suns 2011-2014 or the high flying Cats 2007-2010?

 

[Mr Meow]

wow you got me man, well done lol

back to the ignore list with the rest of your aliases

go touch some grass

Not thinking Martin is the greatest player in history obviously can only arise from a covert network of aliases working around the clock for nefarious means. This is the level of delusion we are dealing with.

 

[RUNVS]

Ablett Junior finals: disposal ave 23, goal + goal assist ave 1.32, finals awards zero. Top 4 finishes 7, Premierships 2.

Franklin finals: disposal average 14, goal + goal assist average 3.4, finals awards zero. Top 4 finishes 8, Premierships 2.

Dustin Martin finals: disposal average 22, goal + goal assist average 2.8, finals awards 3 x Norm Smith Medals, 3 x Gary Ayres Medals. Top 4 finishes 4. Premierships 3.

When compared to Ablett Jnr in finals Dusty has 4% less disposals, 113% more goals + assists, 50% more flags despite Ablett having 75% more top 4 finishes, and infinitely more finals awards.

When compared to Franklin in finals, Dusty has 57% more disposals, 18% less goals + assists, 50% more flags despite Franklin having 100% more top 4 finishes. And infinitely more finals awards.

I had to include all finals there because if you just include the finals that matter most, Preliminary and Grand Finals, the comparisons get x rated.

I checked the greatest dynasty threads and Ablett and Franklin definitely played in stronger teams than Dusty. I checked the greatest players of this century and or AFL era threads and Ablett and Franklin are definitely way better players than Dusty. On those threads daylight is even better than Dusty, but nowhere near as good as Ablett or Franklin.

So I am now pretty certain you have to be an inferior player to play better in finals. And by extension the worst teams win flags. This theory neatly explains 2 things:

1. Why Dusty has the best known finals record of any player in history, and

2. Collingwood 2023.

Do you ever take a second to wonder why it is only Richmond fans, and certainly not even a majority of Richmond fans that believe Martin is the best player of all time?

I mean, do you think there is some big conspiracy that most AFL fans would say Ablett Jnr is the best mid of the 21st century, or is everyone on this board just really pro Geelong and anti Richmond?

 

[Caligo]

Not sure this stands up to the facts:

Here are coaches vote top-10 and top-20:

From 2018-23, so 6-years of data:

Top-10: 43 players from top-8 versus 17 from bottom 10. So 72% of players despite being only 45% of players

11-20: 39 players v 21. So 65%

So overall for top-20 placings it’s 82 from top-8 versus 38 from bottom 10. 68% of top-20 coming from top-8.

I ran the data for 2021-23 for top-21 to 40. (I couldn’t be bothered doing any more years)

It was 39 versus 21, so the exact same ratio as 11-20 where 65% come from top-8 teams.

Of course it’s not impossible to poll high coaches vote numbers in a poor team, but if you take just 2021-23, of the top-120 players (3 x top-40), 78 players come from top-8 teams versus 42 from bottom 10.

Given it’s 8 x teams v 10 x teams it’s a huge discrepancy.


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I don't think you understood my point. I agree top teams get more coaches votes. But take a random good player and plonk them in a good team. They win more games, and their team gets more coaches votes, but the competition for those votes is also higher because it is a good team. In a bad team that same player will lose more games, his team will get fewer votes, but he will get a bigger share because he has less competition for those votes.

I haven't done any math at all on it, I just feel like it isn't as simple as good team vs bad.

Zach Merrett gets a fair few coaches votes in a bad team. Would he get more or fewer if you put him in a gun team with a whole lot of competition for those votes?

 

[werdna78]

The bud vs gaj debate is really interesting I think. What sways it for me is one thing: in this millenium, bud is further ahead of other key forwards than gaj is ahead of other mid/forwards.

To put it another way, I think Dusty is closer to GAJ than St Nick (or whoever you think the second best key forward since carey collapsed in 2001) is to Bud.

In the other hand, if you are including Wayne Carey then I can't really separate Carey vs Franklin, and so GAJ wins because no other mid/forward has been his equal.

My top 15 of all time based on goals x disposals x awards.

1. Leigh Matthews
2. Gary Ablett JR
3. Kevin Bartlett
4. Lance Franklin
5. Jason Dunstall
6. Tony Lockett
7. Brent Harvey
8. Matthew Pavlich
9. Wayne Carey
10. Nick Riewoldt
11. Gordon Coventry
12. Stephen Kernahan
13. Patrick Dangerfield
14. Nathan Buckley
15. Dustin Martin

 

[Noidnadroj]

This isn't a gotcha or anything, it's a genuine question.

With this in mind do you find Ablett's coaches and Brownlow votes averages and league MVP placements as more impressive at the lowly Suns 2011-2014 or the high flying Cats 2007-2010?

Hmm… this is not a ‘gotch ya’ answer here either … but I’m not sure.

At the GC he was the pea in the pod. Played the game 100% midfield. Was the player every ruck tap was directed towards. He was the player every handball was given to. This is not a slight, this was done as he was their best player and he was the best decision maker and best ball user. So for GC to win, he had to play a great game, which he did often… and thus got maximum coaches votes. But despite his playing full season at GC in 2011-13 as the best player in the game playing midfield permanently as the ‘main man’,, he got 70, 92 and 95 votes - that was being the victim of being in a losing team. If GC finish top-4, even with a wider spread of vote getters, he’d probably have an extra 10-15 votes each season.

At Geelong there were a lot more votes to go around, but he wasn’t the ‘pea in the pod’. He was one of many ‘peas’. He was still the best one, but not the only one. GAJ rates 2010 his greatest year. He got ‘only’ 70 coaches votes … but I do remember in 2010 he spent more time forward (he wasn’t happy with Bomber about this). It’s probably the main reason for his ‘drop’ in coaches votes, as it’s harder to get votes when playing forward more often.

So I could make a case both ways and couldn’t split them to be honest as he was brilliant at both Geelong and Gold Coast.


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[Noidnadroj]

I don't think you understood my point. I agree top teams get more coaches votes. But take a random good player and plonk them in a good team. They win more games, and their team gets more coaches votes, but the competition for those votes is also higher because it is a good team. In a bad team that same player will lose more games, his team will get fewer votes, but he will get a bigger share because he has less competition for those votes.

I haven't done any math at all on it, I just feel like it isn't as simple as good team vs bad.

Zach Merrett gets a fair few coaches votes in a bad team. Would he get more or fewer if you put him in a gun team with a whole lot of competition for those votes?

I get your point and I largely agree. But data shows the lions share of top vote getters are in successful teams. But there’s still a healthy sprinkling of players from lowly teams. Martin came third in 2016 as part of a sh*te team. But he played full-time midfield and was getting handball receives galore etc…. but I’d rate all of his 2017-20 superior seasons to 2016 because his role was primarily to benefit the team, not his own stats.

So to answer your point i agree Merrett would get less votes at Collingwood, but he’d be a more damaging and rounded player.

But someone like Dylan Moore would get way more votes at a successful team, as his zero votes when he gets 20 and kicks 2 in a loss would be 3-votes in a win etc….


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[Noidnadroj]

Chapman and Martin are a better comparison than Martin and Ablett, I'm glad I'm starting to have an influence on you after all this time.

Goals and disposals alone as an analysis is just rubbish, you're aware of that. Daicos had less goals than 2011 Martin and had a million more coaches votes.

Comparing midfielders, what we'll be looking for are things like B&F victories and top 3/5 placements in each of the league MVP, Coaches Association Award and Brownlow. You already know which way those heavily lean as a trio over many many years. And he was also that sides best performer in finals and premierships as well.

Huh? Aren’t we assessing Martin’s second season?

How did you compare Martin’s second season as a 19-20yo in a garbage team with Chapman’s as a 29yo at the peak of his powers playing mid-fwd in a dominant team?

Stats, Brownlow votes and coaches votes suggest Martin had a vastly superior season, so that’d be quite some achievement given Chappy was a gun mid-fwd and Martin was a second year player. What’s your assessment?


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[Mr Meow]

Huh? Aren’t we assessing Martin’s second season?

How did you compare Martin’s second season as a 19-20yo in a garbage team with Chapman’s as a 29yo at the peak of his powers playing mid-fwd in a dominant team?

Stats, Brownlow votes and coaches votes suggest Martin had a vastly superior season, so that’d be quite some achievement given Chappy was a gun mid-fwd and Martin was a second year player. What’s your assessment?


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To be honest I didn't take the post seriously as I thought we were still comparing young Daicos with young Martin.

Chappy was forward a lot more than mid (a classic forward pocket/flanker really; nothing like an ultra attacking midfielder with license to roam forward) and equally split scoring duties with his roaming pal SJ. Equally there's only so many coaches votes to go around to cover two forward flankers in a side with a supreme and deep midfield.

Between them they did okay. It'd be the equivalent of Martin spending more time forward and sharing duties with peak Deledio I guess? With a midfield of Ablett, Bartel and co ahead of him. Certainly his coaches votes would go down for one thing.

 

[Noidnadroj]

To be honest I didn't take the post seriously as I thought we were still comparing young Daicos with young Martin.

Chappy was forward a lot more than mid (a classic forward pocket/flanker really; nothing like an ultra attacking midfielder with license to roam forward) and equally split scoring duties with his roaming pal SJ. Equally there's only so many coaches votes to go around to cover two forward flankers in a side with a supreme and deep midfield.

Between them they did okay. It'd be the equivalent of Martin spending more time forward and sharing duties with peak Deledio I guess? With a midfield of Ablett, Bartel and co ahead of him. Certainly his coaches votes would go down for one thing.

So Chappy spent a lot more time forward in a dominant team and still averaged 50% less goals per game than second year player Martin. Geelong averaged 115.8 points per game that season. Richmond averaged 94.

Maybe Martin was a better player way back in 2011 than you realised? He certainly had a better second season than 29yo Chappy. Unless of course you choose to ignore stats, coaches votes, Brownlow votes and B&F. (GAJ wasn’t at Geelong in 2011, and the Cats got 91 x Brownlow votes compared to Richmond’s 49 in 2011…)

But oh yeah, that’s right. Chappy had more great players around him and was playing forward
In a far more dominant team kicking much much higher scores …… No wonder his data didn’t stack up against Martin… hmmmm.


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[Mr Meow]

So Chappy spent a lot more time forward in a dominant team and still averaged 50% less goals per game than second year player Martin. Geelong averaged 115.8 points per game that season. Richmond averaged 94.

Maybe Martin was a better player way back in 2011 than you realised? He certainly had a better second season than 29yo Chappy. Unless of course you choose to ignore stats, coaches votes, Brownlow votes and B&F. (GAJ wasn’t at Geelong in 2011, and the Cats got 91 x Brownlow votes compared to Richmond’s 49 in 2011…)

But oh yeah, that’s right. Chappy had more great players around him and was playing forward
In a far more dominant team kicking much much higher scores …… No wonder his data didn’t stack up against Martin… hmmmm.


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Blah blah blah blah blah.

Chapman was a 2 clearance a game player that briefly bumped up to 3 during the premierships. Martin had 2.8 clearances a game in 2023 and we were told he emphatically he was a forward only during this season. He was closer to a 4+ a game clearance player seven seasons; something you could only say about Chapman's 2013.

Chapman's ratios of goals to clearances in 2004 was 1.06. Martin "the forward" this season had a goal to clearance ratio was 0.45. Let alone the years he was actually an attacking midfielder. Run that goal to clearance ratio over their entire careers and Chapman's is literally twice as highly weighted on goals (0.56 vs 0.28). So yes he spent a lot more time forward than Martin. You're clearly only choosing 2011 as it was an outlier compared to his other early years by the way. At least you're being transparent about that.

So yes, Chapman was far more of a pure forward than Martin and shared those scoring duties with the similarly instructed Steve Johnson. Where the creme de le creme midfield did take a massive amount of the votes and accolades on offer. 852 goals and 426 goal assists between SJ and Chappy. They should never be looked at in isolation. Martin was the sole roaming destroyer when playing forward of centre, the sole ultra attacking midfielder. He was very good at it. But he didn't have another player running around in the same space with the same role. You never seem to understand this point.

As a pure forward, in 2006 Chapman had more coaches votes and combined goals/assists in a poor side than "almost AA" pure forward 2023 Martin. 46, 51, 67 and 72 votes are impressive tallies for a forward flanker when your Ablett's, Bartel's, Selwood's and the rest of the deep midfield are hogging a fair chunk of them. 2011 and 2023 were the closest to this role for Martin and he reached the 40s in coaches votes both seasons.

Which of the above are you actually trying to argue?

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Blah blah blah blah blah.

Chapman was a 2 clearance a game player that briefly bumped up to 3 during the premierships. Martin had 2.8 clearances a game in 2023 and we were told he emphatically he was a forward only during this season. He was closer to a 4+ a game clearance player seven seasons; something you could only say about Chapman's 2013.

Chapman's ratios of goals to clearances in 2004 was 1.06. Martin "the forward" this season had a goal to clearance ratio was 0.45. Let alone the years he was actually an attacking midfielder. Run that goal to clearance ratio over their entire careers and Chapman's is literally twice as highly weighted on goals (0.56 vs 0.28). So yes he spent a lot more time forward than Martin. You're clearly only choosing 2011 as it was an outlier compared to his other early years by the way. At least you're being transparent about that.

So yes, Chapman was far more of a pure forward than Martin and shared those scoring duties with the similarly instructed Steve Johnson. Where the creme de le creme midfield did take a massive amount of the votes and accolades on offer. 852 goals and 426 goal assists between SJ and Chappy. They should never be looked at in isolation. Martin was the sole roaming destroyer when playing forward of centre, the sole ultra attacking midfielder. He was very good at it. But he didn't have another player running around in the same space with the same role. You never seem to understand this point.

As a pure forward, in 2006 Chapman had more coaches votes and combined goals/assists in a poor side than "almost AA" pure forward 2023 Martin. 46, 51, 67 and 72 votes are impressive tallies for a forward flanker when your Ablett's, Bartel's, Selwood's and the rest of the deep midfield are hogging a fair chunk of them. 2011 and 2023 were the closest to this role for Martin and he reached the 40s in coaches votes both seasons.

Which of the above are you actually trying to argue?

Errr....compares Chapman's 2nd year to Martin's....Chapman struggling to get a game in a weak Geelong team. So tries comparing Chapman's 3rd season to Martin's 2nd, concludes vastly different calibre of players. Also concludes we didn't need to make these comparisons in order to conclude they are vastly different calibre of players.

It is interesting how you see Dusty as benefitting so richly from playing in a great team in his prime but you see Chappy as suffering so miserably from playing in a great team in his own prime. Yet they played similar roles. This is the trouble when you don't follow good reasoning principles towards a sound conclusion. If you reach your conclusion first then go looking for principles to suit it, you will end up with conflicting principles, just as you have done.

Two things are true of Paul Chapman as a footballer.

1. He was a fine player.

2. He was not fit to tie Dustin Martin's bootlaces.

Which gives us something of an indication of just how good Dustin Martin has been.

 

[Mr Meow]

Errr....compares Chapman's 2nd year to Martin's....Chapman struggling to get a game in a weak Geelong team. So tries comparing Chapman's 3rd season to Martin's 2nd, concludes vastly different calibre of players. Also concludes we didn't need to make these comparisons in order to conclude they are vastly different calibre of players.

It is interesting how you see Dusty as benefitting so richly from playing in a great team in his prime but you see Chappy as suffering so miserably from playing in a great team in his own prime. Yet they played similar roles. This is the trouble when you don't follow good reasoning principles towards a sound conclusion. If you reach your conclusion first then go looking for principles to suit it, you will end up with conflicting principles, just as you have done.

Two things are true of Paul Chapman as a footballer.

1. He was a fine player.

2. He was not fit to tie Dustin Martin's bootlaces.

Which gives us something of an indication of just how good Dustin Martin has been.

I'm looking a little more broadly than one singular season. I provided other examples to show you can chop it up a lot more differently.

I'm not arguing Chapman was a better player. I'm arguing that he was a different type of player, more of a pure forward, with a different role/share of role in his side, and provided the reasoning behind that. The couple of seasons where you could argue Martin was more of a forward/mid akin to Chappy (2011 and 2023), number 35 stacks up favourably. Just like I have no doubt that peak Chappy trying to be an ultra attacking midfielder wouldn't have done it as well as Martin 2017-2020. I'm pointing out these nuances. These nuances make strict coaches votes comparisons wayward, because Chapman did not have the the same role/positioning. If Martin spent his whole career in his 2023 role then those kinds of coaches/Brownlow votes comparisons would make more sense.

People can look at them broadly and make a call that they were both mid/forwards (therefore like for like) but it's lazy and inaccurate. Chapman would be more comparable role-wise to Papley or current day Walters, than Martin.

When Noidy does his straight comparisons it always bears reminding that he AND SJ shared the roaming forward flanker duties for scoring, split the votes and had the accolades divvied up from the superstar midfielders. So again it makes it very apples and oranges to try and compare either with Martin. Just as it would if we tried to compare Martin to a back flanker or a classic wingman.

The bolded is the definition of how you create every post and argument. Well done on the self awareness.

 

[Noidnadroj]

Blah blah blah blah blah.

Chapman was a 2 clearance a game player that briefly bumped up to 3 during the premierships. Martin had 2.8 clearances a game in 2023 and we were told he emphatically he was a forward only during this season. He was closer to a 4+ a game clearance player seven seasons; something you could only say about Chapman's 2013.

Chapman's ratios of goals to clearances in 2004 was 1.06. Martin "the forward" this season had a goal to clearance ratio was 0.45. Let alone the years he was actually an attacking midfielder. Run that goal to clearance ratio over their entire careers and Chapman's is literally twice as highly weighted on goals (0.56 vs 0.28). So yes he spent a lot more time forward than Martin. You're clearly only choosing 2011 as it was an outlier compared to his other early years by the way. At least you're being transparent about that.

So yes, Chapman was far more of a pure forward than Martin and shared those scoring duties with the similarly instructed Steve Johnson. Where the creme de le creme midfield did take a massive amount of the votes and accolades on offer. 852 goals and 426 goal assists between SJ and Chappy. They should never be looked at in isolation. Martin was the sole roaming destroyer when playing forward of centre, the sole ultra attacking midfielder. He was very good at it. But he didn't have another player running around in the same space with the same role. You never seem to understand this point.

As a pure forward, in 2006 Chapman had more coaches votes and combined goals/assists in a poor side than "almost AA" pure forward 2023 Martin. 46, 51, 67 and 72 votes are impressive tallies for a forward flanker when your Ablett's, Bartel's, Selwood's and the rest of the deep midfield are hogging a fair chunk of them. 2011 and 2023 were the closest to this role for Martin and he reached the 40s in coaches votes both seasons.

Which of the above are you actually trying to argue?

Huh? Why do you constantly launch into debates I’m not even having?

I was purely trying to put context around how good Martin was as a second year player as he was very much ‘off Broadway’ in a crap Tiger team. So given it was 12-years ago, I used the comparison of a gun player in a similar role at the peak of their powers in a dominant team, that being Chapman.

So I simply compared Martin to Chapman in the same season, that being 2011. I never mentioned 2006 or 2014 etc… as they were not the same as Martin’s second season … being 2011.

Was Martin’s second season of 2011 superior to Chapman’s 2011 season as a 29yo? On basically every available measure, yes.

Doesn’t mean Chapman’s 2006 or 2013 or whatever weren’t up there with Martin’s 2011… maybe they were. But the relevance was looking at Martin’s second season as a 19yo turning 20yo and how that compared with another similar player of that same year. And he eclipsed Chapman. Chappy was an absolute gun … so it’s great kudos that a 19yo Martin was superior in 2011…. just shows how good Martin was from the very start of his career.


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[Mr Meow]

Huh? Why do you constantly launch into debates I’m not even having?

I was purely trying to put context around how good Martin was as a second year player as he was very much ‘off Broadway’ in a crap Tiger team. So given it was 12-years ago, I used the comparison of a gun player in a similar role at the peak of their powers in a dominant team, that being Chapman.

So I simply compared Martin to Chapman in the same season, that being 2011. I never mentioned 2006 or 2014 etc… as they were not the same as Martin’s second season … being 2011.

Was Martin’s second season of 2011 superior to Chapman’s 2011 season as a 29yo? On basically every available measure, yes.

Doesn’t mean Chapman’s 2006 or 2013 or whatever weren’t up there with Martin’s 2011… maybe they were. But the relevance was looking at Martin’s second season as a 19yo turning 20yo and how that compared with another similar player of that same year. And he eclipsed Chapman. Chappy was an absolute gun … so it’s great kudos that a 19yo Martin was superior in 2011…. just shows how good Martin was from the very start of his career.


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That was a big pot-kettle moment.

On the second bolded, Chapman finished 9th in the Brownlow in 2006. Martin finished equal 20th in 2011.

Chapman picked up an extra 6 coaches votes.

Chapman won a B&F. Martin finished 3rd.

So besides the ratings from the umpires, coaches and club rating Chapman higher - every available measure.

Your much beloved CD amalgamations Fantasy Points and Supercoach had 2006 Chapman with comfortably higher averages as well.

There is then a bigger distance to Martin 2023. Likewise Martin's other early seasons. There's a reason you use 2011 alone.

The years in between where Martin was a midfielder he was higher for most of these metrics, for obvious reasons. Not like for like roles anymore.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

That was a big pot-kettle moment.

On the second bolded, Chapman finished 9th in the Brownlow in 2006. Martin finished equal 20th in 2011.

Chapman picked up an extra 6 coaches votes.

Chapman won a B&F. Martin finished 3rd.

So besides the ratings from the umpires, coaches and club rating Chapman higher - every available measure.

Your much beloved CD amalgamations Fantasy Points and Supercoach had 2006 Chapman with comfortably higher averages as well.

There is then a bigger distance to Martin 2023. Likewise Martin's other early seasons. There's a reason you use 2011 alone.

The years in between where Martin was a midfielder he was higher for most of these metrics, for obvious reasons. Not like for like roles anymore.

Lol, wtf are you even arguing?

Martin was head and shoulders above Chapman in their early seasons, in their primes, and Chapman never produced a season as good as Dusty's 2023 after Chapman turned 30, and his only season anywhere near it was his 2012 season when he was just 30.

As a consequence of all this, not to mention the surplus of 3 Norm Smith Medals and 3 Ayres Medals, and 1 Brownlow and Coaches MVP, and no doubt numerous other awards, Chapman is not held in anywhere near the same esteem of Dustin Martin, but nobody should need that explained to them.

If you want to argue against Dusty's 2011 season being elite for some unknowable reason, simply go and find another player in the AFL era who started a season as a 19yo and recorded more disposals, goals and assists than Dusty's second season. Otherwise, just simply concede the fact he had a historically head-turning second season as a mid-forward in a weak team, then we can all move on.

 

[Mr Meow]

Lol, wtf are you even arguing?

Martin was head and shoulders above Chapman in their early seasons, in their primes, and Chapman never produced a season as good as Dusty's 2023 after Chapman turned 30, and his only season anywhere near it was his 2012 season when he was just 30.

As a consequence of all this, not to mention the surplus of 3 Norm Smith Medals and 3 Ayres Medals, and 1 Brownlow and Coaches MVP, and no doubt numerous other awards, Chapman is not held in anywhere near the same esteem of Dustin Martin, but nobody should need that explained to them.

If you want to argue against Dusty's 2011 season being elite for some unknowable reason, simply go and find another player in the AFL era who started a season as a 19yo and recorded more disposals, goals and assists than Dusty's second season. Otherwise, just simply concede the fact he had a historically head-turning second season as a mid-forward in a weak team, then we can all move on.

It's painful but nonetheless amusing to have to walk you through basic things like the topic being discussed. The statement presented was "by any measure" Martin's 2011 as a forward/mid surpassed Chapman's 2006 (where they had more similar roles, different to when Martin moved as a purely attacking mid). I merely presented evidence to the contrary. Surely, surely you can put dots together yourself. Although I'd rather you seek clarification like this next time as it appears you get lost easily.

The coaches, umpires and club staff rated Chapman's 2006 season as superior. Chapman's years as an experienced forward/mid surpassed Martin's interpretation of the role when taking it up in 2023. These things shouldn't be upsetting but apparently are. Nonetheless, it's probably time to move on to whatever else is concerning you today.

 

[Mr Meow]

What's interesting about the above is that while I agree Martin is/was a better player than Chapman, the debate has various intricacies and draws a much more spirited response than the landslide Ablett vs Martin victory - which a massive majority agree is a no contest. Martin was more midfield focussed than the likes of SJ and Chapman who squeezed two roaming attacking roles (that were somewhat similar to Martin's 2011 or 2023) into one forward line. But as pure forwards you would take the latter and as a pure midfielder you would take the former. They're more or less back in that same stratosphere as far as being elite in their roles, but a way back from the true 21st century GOAT contenders Ablett and Franklin.

Finally the debate is settling into more appropriate comparisons and it's great to see Meteoric Rise finding some of the old vigour after a couple of painful seasons.

 

[Noidnadroj]

It's painful but nonetheless amusing to have to walk you through basic things like the topic being discussed. The statement presented was "by any measure" Martin's 2011 as a forward/mid surpassed Chapman's 2006 (where they had more similar roles, different to when Martin moved as a purely attacking mid). I merely presented evidence to the contrary. Surely, surely you can put dots together yourself. Although I'd rather you seek clarification like this next time as it appears you get lost easily.

The coaches, umpires and club staff rated Chapman's 2006 season as superior. Chapman's years as an experienced forward/mid surpassed Martin's interpretation of the role when taking it up in 2023. These things shouldn't be upsetting but apparently are. Nonetheless, it's probably time to move on to whatever else is concerning you today.

WTF are you even talking about? I was comparing Martin in 2011 as a 19yo with Chapman of 2011 - you know, looking at how Martin performed in comparison to a gun player in a similar role during Martin’s second season of 2011.

Maybe in another post I’ll compare Martin’s 2011 with Chapman 2005, or compare Martin’s 2014 with Chapman’s 2009, or Martin’s U18 season with Chapman’s ….I’ll think about it.

But right now I was seeing how other similar role players performed during 2011 which was Martin’s second season, and Chapman was one of the best in that role. So it was enlightening to me to see Martin’s 2011 eclipsed Chapman’s 2011, showing how good Martin was from very early in his career.


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[Noidnadroj]

Lol, wtf are you even arguing?

Martin was head and shoulders above Chapman in their early seasons, in their primes, and Chapman never produced a season as good as Dusty's 2023 after Chapman turned 30, and his only season anywhere near it was his 2012 season when he was just 30.

As a consequence of all this, not to mention the surplus of 3 Norm Smith Medals and 3 Ayres Medals, and 1 Brownlow and Coaches MVP, and no doubt numerous other awards, Chapman is not held in anywhere near the same esteem of Dustin Martin, but nobody should need that explained to them.

If you want to argue against Dusty's 2011 season being elite for some unknowable reason, simply go and find another player in the AFL era who started a season as a 19yo and recorded more disposals, goals and assists than Dusty's second season. Otherwise, just simply concede the fact he had a historically head-turning second season as a mid-forward in a weak team, then we can all move on.

Yeah yeah … but but … Dusty plays a role of an
attacking midfielder that’s unique and no-one else plays, so you can’t really compare his disposal / goals combo to anyone else as apparently it’s a role only he has played in the last 15-years…..so it’s not fair to use disposals/goals. You must use disposals only. Or goals only. Not both please.


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[Caligo]

WTF are you even talking about? I was comparing Martin in 2011 as a 19yo with Chapman of 2011 - you know, looking at how Martin performed in comparison to a gun player in a similar role during Martin’s second season of 2011.

Maybe in another post I’ll compare Martin’s 2011 with Chapman 2005, or compare Martin’s 2014 with Chapman’s 2009, or Martin’s U18 season with Chapman’s ….I’ll think about it.

But right now I was seeing how other similar role players performed during 2011 which was Martin’s second season, and Chapman was one of the best in that role. So it was enlightening to me to see Martin’s 2011 eclipsed Chapman’s 2011, showing how good Martin was from very early in his career.


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Richmond fans seem to be a bit disingenuous about dusty's second year. It was also the second most goals he ever kicked in a season, with more disposals than any of his last 4 years. It was very much an outlier, and shouldn't be used as representative of anything.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

Decent player who’s career is hyper inflated for being at the right place at the right time with Richmond’s premiership run.

If he played for GCS, I doubt he would even be considered top 100 of all time.