Can Sydney rebound after their GF debacle?

[melbournehammer]

You said northern clubs are inherently disadvantaged. You didn't expand on why this was so.

I could only assume you were suggesting that northern clubs struggled to attract players from interstate while also losing players to homesickness. I cannot think of another reason.

I listed 5 high calibre players who sought out/were keen to get to Sydney in the last decade.

You said conversely heaps have left in that time. You then list 4 players. Mumford stayed in Sydney, only leaving because of salary cap pressures. The same for Malcescki, only he went further north. The same for Dempster & Schneider, only they actually came to Victoria.

None if these players left because they didn't want to be in Sydney.

Please tell us why the northern clubs are so inherently disadvantaged. Because clearly it has nothing to do with player recruitment or retention.

After a while there is no point arguing with people who don't want to see things. You have consistently spent time having a go at the swans. I am pretty ambivalent about that because i understand your reasons but that doesnt make them right.

Insert Brisbane and GWS in your sentence and remove Sydney.

Northern Clubs are inherently disadvantaged. In the same way every club is when a player is not "local". There is a reason why many clubs include location of player at the time of making a decision. it is only one factor but it is clearly a factor to be considered. Sure adelaide may keep dangerfield, but they lose gunston. sure port kept boak but they lost stevens, and arguably burgoyne (not to a go home factor but he wasn't an adelaide boy to begin with so his roots were less significant). Marc Murphy and Chad Wingard wouldnt even go to Northern clubs.

look you can either acknowledge what is an obvious truth - that Northern clubs are disadvantaged - and then say that the measures used to remedy that have been too great or whatever or you can continue to put your fingers in your ears and yell "I'm not listening to jeffrey" all you want. or to use another popular culture reference -

"This is your last chance. After this, there is no turning back. You take the blue pill—the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill—you stay in Wonderland, and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes. Remember: all I'm offering is the truth. Nothing more."

 

[MickyG]

I think the poster is being very generous.

I have:

Black 15

Ben McEvoy
Ben Stratton
Bradley Hill
Cyril Rioli
Grant Birchall
Isaac Smith
Jack Gunston
Jarryd Roughead
Jordan Lewis
Liam Shiels
Luke Breust
Matthew Suckling
Paul Puopolo
Will Langford
James Frawley

Red 6

Brian Lake
David Hale
Josh Gibson
Luke Hodge
Sam Mitchell
Shaun Burgoyne

Orange 6

Angus Litherland
Jonathan Simpkin
Jonathon Ceglar
Matt Spangher
Ryan Schoenmakers
Taylor Duryea

Green 3

Brendan Whitecross
Jed Anderson
Jonathon O'Rourke

Purple 6

Alex Woodward
Billy Hartung
James Sicily
Kaiden Brand
Sam Grimley
Tim O'Brien

You're trying to play down just how good your list is here. What's orange? RUNVS had Blue. I think all your orange would be black under RUNVS's definitions giving you 21 black. All have played more than 10 games and would get a game every week at clubs down the bottom of the ladder. Hartung would be a blue if RUNVS is calling B Jack, Towers and Jones that. In those first three categories you have 27 quality players. You have added Frawley and O'Rourke while we've added no mature players due to AFL rule changes. For the Swans to be able to beat the Hawks our red players will need to perform and your red will need to fade or be injured.

 

[Wolfgang West]

My mail is they will be banned from finals until they give up COLA.

If Kangaroos happen to make Finals, probably a good thing one would think.

 

[ScrewInStuds]

You said northern clubs are inherently disadvantaged. You didn't expand on why this was so.

I could only assume you were suggesting that northern clubs struggled to attract players from interstate while also losing players to homesickness. I cannot think of another reason.

I listed 5 high calibre players who sought out/were keen to get to Sydney in the last decade.

You said conversely heaps have left in that time. You then list 4 players. Mumford stayed in Sydney, only leaving because of salary cap pressures. The same for Malcescki, only he went further north. The same for Dempster & Schneider, only they actually came to Victoria.

None if these players left because they didn't want to be in Sydney.

Please tell us why the northern clubs are so inherently disadvantaged. Because clearly it has nothing to do with player recruitment or retention.

So your point is that during this period the COLA did exactly what it was supposed to do, by offseting the inherent disadvantage of players wanting to move back home to football states?

In comparison, Brisbane didn't have a COLA and lost 5 players to homesickness in a single season. Interesting...

 

[ScrewInStuds]

They played the GF like a team that had no character. It was one of the most gutless efforts from an AFL team I have seen and it will set them back a decade.

A decade ago we won the flag, so I reckon you might be right. 2005 here we come.

 

[MC_9]

I think the poster is being very generous.

I have:

Black 15

Ben McEvoy
Ben Stratton
Bradley Hill
Cyril Rioli
Grant Birchall
Isaac Smith
Jack Gunston
Jarryd Roughead
Jordan Lewis
Liam Shiels
Luke Breust
Matthew Suckling
Paul Puopolo
Will Langford
James Frawley

Red 6

Brian Lake
David Hale
Josh Gibson
Luke Hodge
Sam Mitchell
Shaun Burgoyne

Orange 6

Angus Litherland
Jonathan Simpkin
Jonathon Ceglar
Matt Spangher
Ryan Schoenmakers
Taylor Duryea

Green 3

Brendan Whitecross
Jed Anderson
Jonathon O'Rourke

Purple 6

Alex Woodward
Billy Hartung
James Sicily
Kaiden Brand
Sam Grimley
Tim O'Brien

If Rohan, Ried, Rampe, Bird, etc are black. Then so are pretty much all of the guys that you have list in the orange.

 

[Hawker55]

Would be interested in seeing your detail but this may not be the right thread. 23 black says to to me that the Hawks will be hard to beat next year.

I'm in the Swans to rebound optimist camp. GF is a massive wake up. I think there is enough talent in our list. However the coaching will seriously need to improve. I cannot believe that Horse was named Coach of the Year.

While I appreciate the effort, 'proven AFL player' doesn't really go into enough detail. It puts Buddy at the same level as Rohan (for example) with the only criteria seeming to be that they got games during the season.

 

[Augustine]

Some guys got as his sig: Swans concessions = injustice whereas Vic advantages = tradition. I can't comprehend it. It seems to me to be utter nonsense.

The only example I can think of what they might mean is the grand final being always held at the G. And while to what extent its an advantage is impossible to measure, to me it doesn't seem to be a huge factor. 8 interstate premiers have beaten Vic teams at the G and 4 Vic premiers have beaten interstate teams at the G (including the last two).

I honestly can't think of any other Vic 'advantages' that are retained for the sake of tradition. I would be happy for someone to point them out to me. The home/clash jumpers debacle was one (albeit a commercial/branding advantage rather than on-field one) but even that seems to be resolved.

Vic clubs do get the advantage of less travel and more home grown players. But these aren't concessions defended by tradition. They're just the way things are, they can't be changed. Like Sydney being a significantly more attractive place to live than Adelaide.

Why can't Swans fans just be at peace with the fact until now they've been given a helping hand so the AFL can grow the game? It doesn't *ify your premierships. But it is undeniable.

 

[RUNVS]

Some guys got as his sig: Swans concessions = injustice whereas Vic advantages = tradition. I can't comprehend it. It seems to me to be utter nonsense.

The only example I can think of what they might mean is the grand final being always held at the G. And while to what extent its an advantage is impossible to measure, to me it doesn't seem to be a huge factor. 8 interstate premiers have beaten Vic teams at the G and 4 Vic premiers have beaten interstate teams at the G (including the last two).

I honestly can't think of any other Vic 'advantages' that are retained for the sake of tradition. I would be happy for someone to point them out to me. The home/clash jumpers debacle was one (albeit a commercial/branding advantage rather than on-field one) but even that seems to be resolved.

Vic clubs do get the advantage of less travel and more home grown players. But these aren't concessions defended by tradition. They're just the way things are, they can't be changed. Like Sydney being a significantly more attractive place to live than Adelaide.

Why can't Swans fans just be at peace with the fact until now they've been given a helping hand so the AFL can grow the game? It doesn't *ify your premierships. But it is undeniable.

Also have the right to play the most important game of the year on their home ground.

 

[Kummerspeck]

Vic clubs do get the advantage of less travel and more home grown players. But these aren't concessions defended by tradition. They're just the way things are, they can't be changed.

So you agree that the competition has inherent disadvantages for teams from the northern states?

 

[Mr Meeseeks]

So your point is that during this period the COLA did exactly what it was supposed to do, by offseting the inherent disadvantage of players wanting to move back home to football states?

In comparison, Brisbane didn't have a COLA and lost 5 players to homesickness in a single season. Interesting...

You can't use Brisbanes terrible 2013 off season to make a point and ignore their fantastic 2014 off season. Every man and his dog wanted to go up there.

Swings and roundabouts. The 'go home factor' being an 'inherent disadvantage' is a load of bollocks.

 

[Rioli magic]

Would seem unlikely with all the punitive measures the AFL inflict on them as well as all the inherent disadvantages they have to deal with. A normal club would be mid to lower table under such circumstances but I think Bloods Culture© will get them into the top 4.

 

[Leg End]

You can't use Brisbanes terrible 2013 off season to make a point and ignore their fantastic 2014 off season. Every man and his dog wanted to go up there.

Swings and roundabouts. The 'go home factor' being an 'inherent disadvantage' is a load of bollocks.

So a Victorian game with mainly Victorian players has no Victorian go home factor? The home ground for finals and GF, the travel factor etc - we just conveniently ignore this. But. A Cola agreed by every club and implemented by the AFL is so grossly unfair that the AFL has to cut a NSW club out of trading for two years - but not the other Sydney club.

And let's ignore the millions the Swans have poured into building grassroots footy in NSW. And the extra money the AFL now has due to much expanded TV rights - much of which goes to incompetently managed Melbourne clubs.

You're like rusted on dinosaur Liberal party supporters - arrogant and ignorant.

 

[mcgarnacle]

Who cares about BS disadvantages and advantages.

At the end of the day, the AFL actions are always strategic. that's why all football supporters are being played by the AFL.

you don't pay your hard earned for a well-administered sports competition. You pay a public organisation, which happens to be a sporting body, to fund their strategic objectives.

Sydney were a major pawn in that strategic plan.

Now its GWS. Different teams, same BS.

You're all fools for having followed it, and to keep following it.

 

[louismaxwell]

Sydney cant bounce back after that thrashing, it was diabolical. But they can do everyone a favour and sack Adam give me a free, because i cant earn a kick Goodes.

 

[Leg End]

Sydney cant bounce back after that thrashing, it was diabolical. But they can do everyone a favour and sack Adam give me a free, because i cant earn a kick Goodes.

A Richmond supporter commenting on thrashings. Interesting.

 

[louismaxwell]

A Richmond supporter commenting on thrashings. Interesting.

You still haven't addressed the Adam Goodes issue though, thats why Sydney are so hated. Without him , people might stop being so down on your side.

 

[MinerBoy]

Poor Sydney.

 

[ScoobySnacks]

Some guys got as his sig: Swans concessions = injustice whereas Vic advantages = tradition. I can't comprehend it. It seems to me to be utter nonsense.

The only example I can think of what they might mean is the grand final being always held at the G. And while to what extent its an advantage is impossible to measure, to me it doesn't seem to be a huge factor. 8 interstate premiers have beaten Vic teams at the G and 4 Vic premiers have beaten interstate teams at the G (including the last two).

I honestly can't think of any other Vic 'advantages' that are retained for the sake of tradition. I would be happy for someone to point them out to me. The home/clash jumpers debacle was one (albeit a commercial/branding advantage rather than on-field one) but even that seems to be resolved.

Vic clubs do get the advantage of less travel and more home grown players. But these aren't concessions defended by tradition. They're just the way things are, they can't be changed. Like Sydney being a significantly more attractive place to live than Adelaide.

Why can't Swans fans just be at peace with the fact until now they've been given a helping hand so the AFL can grow the game? It doesn't *ify your premierships. But it is undeniable.

You also forgot to add that interstate teams have a true home ground advantage, something which Victorian teams rarely get these days, unless they sell games interstate.

 

[replicant]

You also forgot to add that interstate teams have a true home ground advantage, something which Victorian teams rarely get these days, unless they sell games interstate.

This gets trotted out all the time, and it's a bit overstated.

We get a home ground advantage for our home games, which are against interstate clubs. You get a home ground advantage against interstate clubs. For you guys, that's 5 real home ground advantage games this season. Most Vic clubs get 3-5 true home games against interstate clubs each season. We get 10, but to make up for it, we get to fly every second week.

Not that i'm complaining, as it could be worse, we could be WC or Freo, who not only have to fly but also go to a significantly different climate and time zone every second week (Lions and Suns cop the climate difference issue too).

But a few less "home ground advantage" games in no way makes up for the disadvantages inherent in the fixture for the interstate teams.

As i said, I'm not complaining. It's a national comp, and that's how it has to work. But the whole "home ground advantage" line is such a cop-out when people try to use it to even the scales of perceived disadvantage.

 

[Tedeski]

You can't use Brisbanes terrible 2013 off season to make a point and ignore their fantastic 2014 off season. Every man and his dog wanted to go up there.

Swings and roundabouts. The 'go home factor' being an 'inherent disadvantage' is a load of bollocks.

It is a factor but player welfare at clubs is now much better than it was even 3 years ago.
From all accounts, Brisbane's player welfare was terrible under Voss & it is this department that has improved 'over night' for Brisbane.

When our assistance came in,there was a definite disadvantage when it came to trying to entice youngsters to our club & then when we did, it was a battle to keep them interested in staying. I agree that interstate clubs don't need continued assistance in this current climate where player welfare has improved but there will always be a distinct disadvantage when a team's list consists of 85% of players that come from a different state as against clubs with 25%.

At the Swans we are trying to balance our list with more local talent but whenever the club & AFL come up with something to help increase our local talent on our list, (academies) it gets attacked, rightly or wrongly, but that's another discussion.

I just think the Swans at least need a little more credit for being proactive in finding any way of surviving but at the same time, being competitive in a non AFL market within the rules allowed & agreed upon by the AFL & all the cluibs. As we've seen the last few years, should we get too good at it, then the other clubs will make sure ours is a changing landscape by continually changing the rules.
That's cool! You'll be pig headed your way & I'll be pig headed my way. That's how it seems to work on here.

Back on topic though, I don't think it's a matter of rebounding. we were just terrible & the Hawks were just at their best, led by the same 4 players that flex their muscle in every important game for the last 4 or 5 years.
Hodge, Mitchell, Burgoyne, Lewis! Two of them off their game, as was Mitchell in 2012, & we have a different game. Those 4 players allow all the other players to be at their best.

Our leaders were just terrible. This is something that can change in 2015 & if it doesn't then we will just be a finals contender without being a serious challenger.

 

[worthy]

This gets trotted out all the time, and it's a bit overstated.

We get a home ground advantage for our home games, which are against interstate clubs. You get a home ground advantage against interstate clubs. For you guys, that's 5 real home ground advantage games this season. Most Vic clubs get 3-5 true home games against interstate clubs each season. We get 10, but to make up for it, we get to fly every second week.

Not that i'm complaining, as it could be worse, we could be WC or Freo, who not only have to fly but also go to a significantly different climate and time zone every second week (Lions and Suns cop the climate difference issue too).

But a few less "home ground advantage" games in no way makes up for the disadvantages inherent in the fixture for the interstate teams.

As i said, I'm not complaining. It's a national comp, and that's how it has to work. But the whole "home ground advantage" line is such a cop-out when people try to use it to even the scales of perceived disadvantage.

It is a factor, and it only gets "trotted out" when it's completely ignored by posters trying to make their plot seem worse than it is.

So, non Vic clubs travel what? 10/12 times a year
Vic clubs travel what? 3/5 times a year
= Adv Vic clubs

Non Vic clubs get 10 genuine home games
Vic clubs get 5? genuine home games
= Adv non Vic clubs

 

[worthy]

It is a factor but player welfare at clubs is now much better than it was even 3 years ago.
From all accounts, Brisbane's player welfare was terrible under Voss & it is this department that has improved 'over night' for Brisbane.

When our assistance came in,there was a definite disadvantage when it came to trying to entice youngsters to our club & then when we did, it was a battle to keep them interested in staying. I agree that interstate clubs don't need continued assistance in this current climate where player welfare has improved but there will always be a distinct disadvantage when a team's list consists of 85% of players that come from a different state as against clubs with 25%.

At the Swans we are trying to balance our list with more local talent but whenever the club & AFL come up with something to help increase our local talent on our list, (academies) it gets attacked, rightly or wrongly, but that's another discussion.

I just think the Swans at least need a little more credit for being proactive in finding any way of surviving but at the same time, being competitive in a non AFL market within the rules allowed & agreed upon by the AFL & all the cluibs. As we've seen the last few years, should we get too good at it, then the other clubs will make sure ours is a changing landscape by continually changing the rules.
That's cool! You'll be pig headed your way & I'll be pig headed my way. That's how it seems to work on here.

Back on topic though, I don't think it's a matter of rebounding. we were just terrible & the Hawks were just at their best, led by the same 4 players that flex their muscle in every important game for the last 4 or 5 years.
Hodge, Mitchell, Burgoyne, Lewis! Two of them off their game, as was Mitchell in 2012, & we have a different game. Those 4 players allow all the other players to be at their best.

Our leaders were just terrible. This is something that can change in 2015 & if it doesn't then we will just be a finals contender without being a serious challenger.

What are your genuine thoughts on this ?

My thoughts:
On the one hand, Sydney have put a lot of effort and money into the academies, it seems only right they should benefit from it.
But it is potentially a big advantage, being able to grab the best young NSW talent at potentially bargain picks.

On the other hand, every club would pour money into their own version if they had the opportunity, the AFL should have run and funded it, and made all players available to all clubs, like a draft, that could work.

 

[Superstar swan]

What are your genuine thoughts on this ?

My thoughts:
On the one hand, Sydney have put a lot of effort and money into the academies, it seems only right they should benefit from it.
But it is potentially a big advantage, being able to grab the best young NSW talent at potentially bargain picks.

On the other hand, every club would pour money into their own version if they had the opportunity, the AFL should have run and funded it, and made all players available to all clubs, like a draft, that could work.

I agree to a point about all clubs being able to run their own academies, but I think the system is set up in the non football states because the best athletes can be drawn into the system and if good enough, remain at home to play afl. Some players may be choose to stick with rugby, soccer etc rather than enter the draft and end up anywhere in australia

 

[ScrewInStuds]

You can't use Brisbanes terrible 2013 off season to make a point and ignore their fantastic 2014 off season. Every man and his dog wanted to go up there.

Swings and roundabouts. The 'go home factor' being an 'inherent disadvantage' is a load of bollocks.

Christianson had a *edit* "screw loose" and needed to get out of the limelight for a bit, and Beams' dad had cancer. These are not "usual" circumstances and using the Lion's fantastic 2014 off season to mitigate their past decade of list issues is disengenuous.

Further to that, Beams is a QLD boy who was desperate to get home to his family, so if anything the crap compensation that Collingwood received illustrates that the "Go home factor" is certainly an issue - one that will continue to disproportionately affect Northern clubs until a higher percentage of players are drafted from QLD and NSW.

The 'go home factor' being an 'inherent disadvantage' is certainly a thing when you're talking about shipping 18-20 year olds interstate away from their family and normal support networks. Hopefully the academy system will address this.

In my opinion once the academies are up and running properly a retention allowance is probably not needed except in a very limited form for players on base/rookie salaries. Anyway, I feel that we probably aren't likely to agree on this particular topic.