Carey or Ablett

[Cuzz09]

Carey for me just

But that 93 season by Ablett was amazing.

I went to 2 games he kicked 10+ and cats lost fairly comfortably (3-4 goals v Adel and Melbourne)



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[hoianbulldog]

The evolution of Pagan’s Paddock

Ask the majority of North Melbourne fans who ‘Pagan’s Paddock’ was built for, and the answer you’ll receive is ‘Wayne Carey’.

www.nmfc.com.au

Already posted it, already quoted it, already explained it.

And yet it’s me who is talking shyte.

Idiot...

speak nicely to me or i wont hang out with you.

 

[footyfan1978]

Ablett.
The player skill off the charts.
Carey was in the charts with many other mere mortal footballers

 

[Trahanas22]

Do you actually believe that plugging Carey into that Geelong team, and vice versa, would've landed the Cats two flags and North none instead? Otherwise it's merely an indication of North having the better overall side, which they did.

First of all, you are asking me to go into hypotheticals, which I try to avoid as much as possible. But, this being BF, the mecca of hypotheticals, let’s give it a go. What make Carey Carey is that he plays like Carey. The coaches will ask him to do something that is to the benefit of the team as a whole and he’ll do it, even if it’s to the detriment of his own personal stats.

I don’t know as much about Ablett as Geelong supporters do, but from what I have heard and read, as a footballer at least he was way much less mature than Carey. You tell me, you ask Gary to stop trying to kick 10 goals per game and trying to take the mark of the century as well, but instead try to bring the ball to the ground for his teammates’ benefit, will he do it? Will it even register to him what he is being asked to do, in the first place? Stop being Ablett? That’s why maybe no-one ever asked him to do something like this.

So, I don’t know what happens if Carey plays for Geelong. But if Ablett plays for North Melbourne, they don’t win premierships. Carey’s paddock is not there any more. The paddock won the premierships, so it’s a reasonable conclusion that no paddock-and the numerous goals that it created for all the other NM forwards-no flags….

 

[Munga]

Out of Carey and Ablett, I'd choose Lockett.

 

[Hotdees]

Jack Watts

 

[Matrix10]

Out of Carey and Ablett, I'd choose Lock

Out of Carey , Ablett , Lockett. None of the above. Leigh Matthews

 

[Bunnings]

Because without Carey North Melbourne weren’t premiership material. They may have made quite a few prelims or grannies but they would have won zero flags. They would have been a very similar outfit to Geelong in Ablett’s era. Close, but no cigar.

Here is an article which is explains Carey importance, by analysing Pagan’s paddock, which of course was Carey’s paddock:

The evolution of Pagan’s Paddock

Ask the majority of North Melbourne fans who ‘Pagan’s Paddock’ was built for, and the answer you’ll receive is ‘Wayne Carey’.

www.nmfc.com.au

Quotes:

“As Darren Crocker picks up the story, he reflects on 1996 after a belting at the hands of Sydney in Round 11.

“It was the first time we’d ever encountered a team really dropping numbers back against us and basically surrounding Wayne Carey,” Crocker explained.”

“Basically what the opposition and Rodney Eade (Sydney coach) were doing, they were using Carey as a reference point. Thinking we’d always go forward and kick it to him, in that particular game they played with eight defenders.”

“Nevertheless, North retreated to the training track and worked on ways to combat the Swans’ extra defenders.

“So from that time on, we started to play around with bringing everyone up in front of Duck so he was basically the last forward, closest to the goal,” Crocker explained.”

“Even if he was surrounded by numbers, instead of kicking it to him we’d kick it to the space over the back of him. That would then give the likes of Brett Allison, Peter Bell, Robert Scott, Glenn Freeborn, really quick types running onto the ball in the space.

“When we did kick it to him, even if he didn’t mark it he’d always bring it to ground. Then when the ball was at his feet, we could surge it on into that space behind him and get scoring opportunities.”


As you can see from the above quotes, he often had three or even four players put on him, leaving many other NM forwards unattended. Carey had to make sure that, apart from marking and kicking his own goals, the ball was ending up to advantageous positions for his teammates. And he did this, game after game.

This is how you win premierships. By utilising the talents and capabilities of you star players to the max. All attacking structures of the Kangas were involving Carey in some capacity. The guy was basically half a team by himself. Now, you are a Geelong supporter, can you tell us, other than goals and spectacular marks, what else was Ablett contributing to the Cats? Has he ever flown up to take a mark thinking, ok say I don’t grab it, what else can I do to help the team? How about directing the ball towards my small forwards etc? Nope. Not his thing. Spectacle vs substance. No premierships for him. Flags require substance.

Carey the better player by quite a lot...

So plugger and Richo also no good….

Ablett could do every facet of the game, he was an elite kick, he had pace, he hurt the opposition…. That is a classic “he only kicked 1000 goals and took spectacular marks”.
There’s no measurement that will give you an answer but goals per game ain’t a bad one, Ablett wasn’t a full forward until very late in career, played less games and kicked way more goals….. oh I forgot Carey’s goals meant more and were goals in a premiership team, Shannon Byrnes over Plugger for me then.

 

[nut]

Ablett senior …

 

[nut]

First of all, you are asking me to go into hypotheticals, which I try to avoid as much as possible. But, this being BF, the mecca of hypotheticals, let’s give it a go. What make Carey Carey is that he plays like Carey. The coaches will ask him to do something that is to the benefit of the team as a whole and he’ll do it, even if it’s to the detriment of his own personal stats.

I don’t know as much about Ablett as Geelong supporters do, but from what I have heard and read, as a footballer at least he was way much less mature than Carey. You tell me, you ask Gary to stop trying to kick 10 goals per game and trying to take the mark of the century as well, but instead try to bring the ball to the ground for his teammates’ benefit, will he do it? Will it even register to him what he is being asked to do, in the first place? Stop being Ablett? That’s why maybe no-one ever asked him to do something like this.

So, I don’t know what happens if Carey plays for Geelong. But if Ablett plays for North Melbourne, they don’t win premierships. Carey’s paddock is not there any more. The paddock won the premierships, so it’s a reasonable conclusion that no paddock-and the numerous goals that it created for all the other NM forwards-no flags….

Ablett didn’t need to bring the ball to ground, he just won the ball and kicked the goal….
And WTF would you tell someone not to kick 10 goals a game? Seriously ???

Carey’s strength was contests marks … and Richo was his equal in that stat.

 

[JimmyBC]

Jack Watts

Swimming & **** trumps everything.

 

[Rich01]

Ablett wasn’t a full forward until very late in career, played less games and kicked way more goals…..

In a traditional sense this is true. He didn’t play the pure goalsquare role that Lockett and Dunstall did until late. But he was never a pure winger. He started up the ground and run back into the forward line to receive. A high percentage of his possessions each year were shots on goal more indicative of a forward than a mid or wingman.

 

[Elmer_Hauser]

Ablett had the more natural talent, but Carey had the flags (with less talented teams than the grand final teams Ablett played with) so I have to give it to Duck

 

[My Tilly]

Out of Carey , Ablett , Lockett. None of the above. Leigh Matthews

Can't argue with that.

 

[ItsAllAboutMe]

First of all, you are asking me to go into hypotheticals, which I try to avoid as much as possible. But, this being BF, the mecca of hypotheticals, let’s give it a go. What make Carey Carey is that he plays like Carey. The coaches will ask him to do something that is to the benefit of the team as a whole and he’ll do it, even if it’s to the detriment of his own personal stats.

I don’t know as much about Ablett as Geelong supporters do, but from what I have heard and read, as a footballer at least he was way much less mature than Carey. You tell me, you ask Gary to stop trying to kick 10 goals per game and trying to take the mark of the century as well, but instead try to bring the ball to the ground for his teammates’ benefit, will he do it? Will it even register to him what he is being asked to do, in the first place? Stop being Ablett? That’s why maybe no-one ever asked him to do something like this.

So, I don’t know what happens if Carey plays for Geelong. But if Ablett plays for North Melbourne, they don’t win premierships. Carey’s paddock is not there any more. The paddock won the premierships, so it’s a reasonable conclusion that no paddock-and the numerous goals that it created for all the other NM forwards-no flags….

Wayne Carey made his team mates better, and if you forget the off field sh1t he is probably the best captain I can remember, Hird and Sticks prob 2nd and 3rd. Carey made his entire team feel bulletproof because they knew he had their back.

 

[Hava Alle]

If we are talking pure football ability like I'm reading the OP.

Ablett Snr

Daylight

Carey.

 

[Elmer_Hauser]

Wayne Carey made his team mates better, and if you forget the off field sh1t he is probably the best captain I can remember, Hird and Sticks prob 2nd and 3rd. Carey made his entire team feel bulletproof because they knew he had their back.

Absolutely

And for all his brilliance Ablett was a bad and selfish teammate, and the last bloke you could say was a leader on field

If you want to watch footy to be entertained and enthralled you'd pick GAS, but if you want to win finals and flags, obviously Carey

 

[My Tilly]

Absolutely

And for all his brilliance Ablett was a bad and selfish teammate, and the last bloke you could say was a leader on field

If you want to watch footy to be entertained and enthralled you'd pick GAS, but if you want to win finals and flags, obviously Carey

He was far from selfish.
Certainly turned a blind eye and went for goal more often than what Carey did but he was not selfish at all. Often setup up goals by passing directly to teammates who were in better positions. Particularly when he was playing half forward flank.

You want to talk about a selfish footballer, look no further than Bruce Lindner.

 

[Theicon]

So plugger and Richo also no good….

Ablett could do every facet of the game, he was an elite kick, he had pace, he hurt the opposition…. That is a classic “he only kicked 1000 goals and took spectacular marks”.
There’s no measurement that will give you an answer but goals per game ain’t a bad one, Ablett wasn’t a full forward until very late in career, played less games and kicked way more goals….. oh I forgot Carey’s goals meant more and were goals in a premiership team, Shannon Byrnes over Plugger for me then.

I remember doing the numbers a while back.
Without Carey from 1993-2001(his captain years) North had a win percentage of 38. With Carey it was around 68%.

And if you took out 1997 which he was underdone due to his shoulder it was not even 20%.

I reckon you will struggle to find another player who was that integral to his team's success.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

Ablett had the more natural talent, but Carey had the flags (with less talented teams than the grand final teams Ablett played with) so I have to give it to Duck

If Carey’s North run into 89 Hawthorn, 92/94 West Coast or 95 Carlton they probably have zero flags.

North played 95 Carlton in the prelim. They lost by 10 goals.

The two teams also met in the 94 prelim. Carey had 24 touches and kicked 6. Geelong won. So not sure what happened to Carey’s marvellous leadership that day. Looks like a one-man performance but couldn’t inspire his teammates or make them better.

They also played a few weeks earlier. Carey kicked 5. Geelong won.

 

[JimmyBC]

The game controlling CHF wins for me, Carey was covering a lot of ground & doubling back into space before it was sexy.

Carey was also highly gifted skill wise.. that's been lost a bit in this thread for some reason.

 

[nut]

 

[Cursed Cat]

This is a myth. I’ve heard Malcolm Blight interviewed about this. He said he started wing/HF and kicked a few early, so when Blight realised he was ‘hot’ he moved him permanently forward.

14-goals is freakish from anywhere, but whilst it makes for great folklore, only a few were from wing.



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Out of Carey and Ablett, I'd choose Lockett.

Save it for the Plugger vs Dunstall thread!

 

[Handsome.B.Wonderful]

If Carey’s North run into 89 Hawthorn, 92/94 West Coast or 95 Carlton they probably have zero flags.

North played 95 Carlton in the prelim. They lost by 10 goals.

The two teams also met in the 94 prelim. Carey had 24 touches and kicked 6. Geelong won. So not sure what happened to Carey’s marvellous leadership that day. Looks like a one-man performance but couldn’t inspire his teammates or make them better.

They also played a few weeks earlier. Carey kicked 5. Geelong won.

Ablett also had 5 touches that day, not sure why you are pulling out single games or Grand Finals from 1989 when Carey was 17 years old.

Odd to pull out a game where Carey kicked 6.4 and dominated while Ablett barely touched the ball at the other end to prove Ablett was a better player.

 

[Tas]

Ablett snr had more talent imo but allegedly he had off-field issues that stopped him being the player he could have been.

You just can't judge players who were cut down by injuries or sabotaged their own career, otherwise it is impossible to judge players like Adrian McAdam for example who had amazing talent but shot himself in the foot.

I think these comparisons are a bit weird though, like Plugger is probably one of the greatest players to have played imo, what he achieved in bog average teams was amazing and he didn't rely on being gifted in terms of freaky agility, the guy was a machine. He just doesn't get the recognition he deserves.