Carlton Back to Princes' Park a possibility?

[Magnificence]

Is it more likely than not that we will return to our home ground that actually gives us a winning edge?

Telstra Dome was a stupid idea, as Ian Collins just wanted to help himself as he was the Boss of Telstra Dome, should we go back to the ground that lead us to 16 premierships?


http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,22857778-2862,00.html

"Three stands - Harris, Heatley and Pratt - will be demolished at the ground as part of the redevelopment. No date has yet been set for completion of the work."

Playing at Optus is a waste of time unless they can get a car Park with 3 times the capacity. It is no surprise that the Pies and Bombers murdered us in the membership stakes and corporate sponsorship starting from the mid 90's due to the poor offerings for members and sponsors at Optus.

We have moved on from Optus and already our membership is exploding despite terrible on field performance.

I would not be adeverse to playing maybe 2 games a year at the ground against say Freo and Port but apart from that I looked fwd to us averaging 50,000 + fans a game

 

[Dramoth]

I wish we do move back.. It would be fantastic to go back and watch games at OUR HOME "PRINCESS PARK", just like the old days

Princes' Park muppet...

I wish that we had never left, but financial considerations were the cause of us departing our proud home ground. That and the fact that Collins was working with the AFL to get us moved into Telstra Dome.

Personally, I would have preferred a move to the MCG rather than Docklands.

 

[simpson6]

Princes' Park muppet...

I wish that we had never left, but financial considerations were the cause of us departing our proud home ground. That and the fact that Collins was working with the AFL to get us moved into Telstra Dome.

Personally, I would have preferred a move to the MCG rather than Docklands.

You have to remember, we are not Collingwood, we dont get the right to have 15 or so games a year at the MCG. The AFL would never let us play all our home games at the G' , although i would be much happier than playing at the Terrible Dome.

 

[Blue Through and Through]

Unfortunately the fortress is gone, but we have to move on. Don't worry we have a bright future. Go Blues!

 

[SA Blue]

You have to remember, we are not Collingwood, we dont get the right to have 15 or so games a year at the MCG. The AFL would never let us play all our home games at the G' , although i would be much happier than playing at the Terrible Dome.

Elliott had the chance to broker a MCG deal. He didn't.

 

[HBF]

The days of Carlton playing at Princes Park are long gone. The club would have to spend several million dollars getting the ground up to AFL standard, and even then, I doubt the AFL would schedule any AFL games there anyway.

We have only been at the Dome since we have struggled on-field as a club, so why not just wait and see what happens when we become stronger, and I reckon the results will take care of themselves - no matter where we play.

 

[True Bluebagger]

I agree.If we cannot play at our spiritual home then we should have A base and not split between the 2 grounds.The MCG should be it as the Telstra surface is still too suspect for player's joints.Collins screwed us that is for sure!

Agreed, the club should put all of its energies and influence into getting the majority of its home games back at the Gee after this Telstra contract runs out.

I don't anyone that prefers watching Carlton at TD in preference to the Gee.

 

[audas]

Those of us who grew up in Carlton, born and bred, would relish the idea. Can understand if others don't hold any history there.

If we can get back there and it works, do it.

 

[dukester95]

Wish it could happen. Going to see Carlton play at Princes Park in all weathers was fantastic. Going to see Carlton play at Telstra Dome is like watching footy in a supermarket...sterile and cold. Unfortunately the AFL are determined not to go back to the days of suburban football....it's all about the dollars.

 

[TheHeatleyStand]

Those of us who grew up in Carlton, born and bred, would relish the idea. Can understand if others don't hold any history there.

If we can get back there and it works, do it.

It doesnt work and we cant go back... you cant live in the past...

 

[BlueWorld]

Those of us who grew up in Carlton, born and bred, would relish the idea. Can understand if others don't hold any history there.

If we can get back there and it works, do it.

About as likely as Essendon going back to windy hill, Collingwood going back to Vic Park...

 

[sosos]

It doesnt work and we cant go back... you cant live in the past...

.....can you little Johnny Howard?

He tried though!

 

[mediumsizered]

Wish it could happen. Going to see Carlton play at Princes Park in all weathers was fantastic. Going to see Carlton play at Telstra Dome is like watching footy in a supermarket...sterile and cold. Unfortunately the AFL are determined not to go back to the days of suburban football....it's all about the dollars.

The AFL needs to protect some Melbourne based clubs, including our own, from themselves. One of the main reasons we are in the position we are financially, is that John Elliott refused to see the writing on the wall for suburban grounds.

As we know, most of the club's debt is a direct result of Elliott's failed attempt to make Princes Park the AFL's second best Melbourne venue. This could never have eventuated without having to also knock down the Pratt, Heatley & Gardiner stands & build new stands, while at the same time improving car parking & somehow overcoming public transport issues in getting to the ground (on match days it was quicker to walk down Royal Pde than get there by tram).

The comfortable & modern facilities at TD & the MCG, ensure that not only diehard football fans attend the footy, but also the theatregoers & of course the corporates & their money. If the AFL was not generating massive revenues from games played at TD & the 'G', there would be a number of Melbourne based clubs, including our own, that would no longer be viable financially.

We can't go backward, we must keep moving forward. We are still way behind Essendon & Collingwood & even Hawthorn. Maybe TD isn't the ideal venue for our club, but we need to give the MCC a reason to consider offering us a better deal than what we get at Telstra Dome, because in recent seasons our poor on-field performances, combined with some very poor attendances eg 16k v Freo & Port in the 2005 season at the 'G', hardly makes us look like a money maker for the MCC.

 

[Smell The Glove]

The AFL needs to protect some Melbourne based clubs, including our own, from themselves. One of the main reasons we are in the position we are financially, is that John Elliott refused to see the writing on the wall for suburban grounds.

As we know, most of the club's debt is a direct result of Elliott's failed attempt to make Princes Park the AFL's second best Melbourne venue. This could never have eventuated without having to also knock down the Pratt, Heatley & Gardiner stands & build new stands, while at the same time improving car parking & somehow overcoming public transport issues in getting to the ground (on match days it was quicker to walk down Royal Pde than get there by tram).

The comfortable & modern facilities at TD & the MCG, ensure that not only diehard football fans attend the footy, but also the theatregoers & of course the corporates & their money. If the AFL was not generating massive revenues from games played at TD & the 'G', there would be a number of Melbourne based clubs, including our own, that would no longer be viable financially.

We can't go backward, we must keep moving forward. We are still way behind Essendon & Collingwood & even Hawthorn. Maybe TD isn't the ideal venue for our club, but we need to give the MCC a reason to consider offering us a better deal than what we get at Telstra Dome, because in recent seasons our poor on-field performances, combined with some very poor attendances eg 16k v Freo & Port in the 2005 season at the 'G', hardly makes us look like a money maker for the MCC.

And I'll bet you would be all in favour of increasing the corporate ticket allocation for Grand Final day too. You conveniently forget to mention the fact that since we arrived at the Telstra Dome our financial situation has barely improved, and at the same time our on-field performances have gotten worse. You make one good point- re. Elliot but our problem wasnt that retaining Optus as a venue was not feasible, they stemmed from, as you say, Elliot made some tremendously stupid mistakes like trying to make Optus into a grander venue than it really was. The '97 redeveopment was possibly the most stupid thing he ever did. Ultimately, if he had have had some sense we may possibly have stayed there. Then along came the most incompetent administrator the game has ever seen- Dogface Collins, and it was all over.

You can take your idea of a piss weak, watered down version of football and shove it. to everything you just said.

 

[Bluebear]

And I'll bet you would be all in favour of increasing the corporate ticket allocation for Grand Final day too. You conveniently forget to mention the fact that since we arrived at the Telstra Dome our financial situation has barely improved, and at the same time our on-field performances have gotten worse. You make one good point- re. Elliot but our problem wasnt that retaining Optus as a venue was not feasible, they stemmed from, as you say, Elliot made some tremendously stupid mistakes like trying to make Optus into a grander venue than it really was. The '97 redeveopment was possibly the most stupid thing he ever did. Ultimately, if he had have had some sense we may possibly have stayed there. Then along came the most incompetent administrator the game has ever seen- Dogface Collins, and it was all over.

You can take your idea of a piss weak, watered down version of football and shove it. to everything you just said.

We are still at TD and our financial position has changed dramatically.
Paying off 2 million of our debt and a massive turnaround from last year.....posting a 2.94mill profit.

This goes to show that while a good stadium deal and winning games is helpful, its not the only way to make money.

In light of this profit the impact of TD on our bottom line appears to be somewhat overstated IMO. It just happened to coincide with us performing very poorly onfield and off-field in a number of areas.

The off-field perfromance has improved light years, and the onfield will follow.......and the TD contract will then seem insignificant.

 

[Smell The Glove]

We are still at TD and our financial position has changed dramatically.
Paying off 2 million of our debt and a massive turnaround from last year.....posting a 2.94mill profit.

This goes to show that while a good stadium deal and winning games is helpful, its not the only way to make money.

In light of this profit the impact of TD on our bottom line appears to be somewhat overstated IMO. It just happened to coincide with us performing very poorly onfield and off-field in a number of areas.

The off-field perfromance has improved light years, and the onfield will follow.......and the TD contract will then seem insignificant.

Yes, but our financial situation hasnot improved as a result of having gone to the TD. When the proposal wasput forward,. it seemedto me one of the major selling points was that moving to the TD would be a direct factor in making us financially viable. It hasnt. Richard Pratt, Greg Swann and a number of influential behind the scenes people have.

I also dont think the argument that because Collingwood and Essendon left Windy Hill and Vic Park we should follow has much merit. Anyone who has been to those ground would realise that a) Windy Hill was a poorly constructed dump and b) Vic Park was abandoned by Collingwood years before they actually left and was never viable as a home ground in the 90's anyway due to that neglect (well, what can you expect from the filth). Optus Oval is different. It has an excellent surface, decent corporate exposure and reasonable proximity to the city. Totally different ball game. Thats why events are still regularly held at Optus Oval and Vic Park/Windy Hill were virtually abandoned by the wider community as soon as they closd for AFL business.

EDIT: Sorry, I realise my sentance was badly worded. I should have added "as a result of moving to the TD".

 

[Bluebear]

Yes, but our financial situation hasnot improved as a result of having gone to the TD. When the proposal wasput forward,. it seemedto me one of the major selling points was that moving to the TD would be a direct factor in making us financially viable. It hasnt. Richard Pratt, Greg Swann and a number of influential behind the scenes people have.

I also dont think the argument that because Collingwood and Essendon left Windy Hill and Vic Park we should follow has much merit. Anyone who has been to those ground would realise that a) Windy Hill was a poorly constructed dump and b) Vic Park was abandoned by Collingwood years before they actually left and was never viable as a home ground in the 90's anyway due to that neglect (well, what can you expect from the filth). Optus Oval is different. It has an excellent surface, decent corporate exposure and reasonable proximity to the city. Totally different ball game. Thats why events are still regularly held at Optus Oval and Vic Park/Windy Hill were virtually abandoned by the wider community as soon as they closd for AFL business.

EDIT: Sorry, I realise my sentance was badly worded. I should have added "as a result of moving to the TD".

I really don't want to go into all the details again as to why we left PP, as it seems only weeks ago that we did this.
Suffice to say we were losing money being the sole tenant there.
We relied on the AFL forcing other teams to go there to play home games (Dees, Dogs, further back the Hawks etc).

Once all these clubs opted (forced) their way out (as their fans hated going there) the ONLY way we were ever going to stay was to get lights, build ANOTHER new stand and become the second big Melbourne based venue.
The local residents group knocked the lights on the head.
At that point the death warrant was signed and we had exactly until the new stadium was built to enjoy our old home.
One of the reasons we are in so much debt is the upkeep on PP..........and us playing 9 games a year there will not cover the costs of maintaing the ground for 22 weeks as an AFL venue.

I love the idea too, and its all very romantic, but the fact is there is no money in it and we couldn't stay......and will never EVER go back.

Lets move on.

 

[Smell The Glove]

I really don't want to go into all the details again as to why we left PP, as it seems only weeks ago that we did this.
Suffice to say we were losing money being the sole tenant there.
We relied on the AFL forcing other teams to go there to play home games (Dees, Dogs, further back the Hawks etc).

Once all these clubs opted (forced) their way out (as their fans hated going there) the ONLY way we were ever going to stay was to get lights, build ANOTHER new stand and become the second big Melbourne based venue.
The local residents group knocked the lights on the head.
At that point the death warrant was signed and we had exactly until the new stadium was built to enjoy our old home.
One of the reasons we are in so much debt is the upkeep on PP..........and us playing 9 games a year there will not cover the costs of maintaing the ground for 22 weeks as an AFL venue.

I love the idea too, and its all very romantic, but the fact is there is no money in it and we couldn't stay......and will never EVER go back.

Lets move on.

I'm not saying we will move back there, I'm saying that blaming Optus Oval as the reason why we are in the position we area is simplistic and naive. There were a number of bad decisions made by John Elliot re. the ground thatdrove the last nail in- I dont think that it was a foregone conclusion that Optus Oval simply wasnt workable on the basis that suburban ground aren't the "way of the future" as MS put it. Nor do I believe, as you do, the lights was the issue either- we didnt necessarily need lights to retain Optus Oval as a venue. Kardinia Park is a viable venue without them and so would Optus have been.

I believe it was a combination of stupid decisions made by John Elliot and an AFL administration happy to sit back and watch Carlton and Optus Oval self destruct in order to centralise power further.

 

[Bluebear]

I'm not saying we will move back there, I'm saying that blaming Optus Oval as the reason why we are in the position we area is simplistic and naive. There were a number of bad decisions made by John Elliot re. the ground thatdrove the last nail in- I dont think that it was a foregone conclusion that Optus Oval simply wasnt workable on the basis that suburban ground aren't the "way of the future" as MS put it. Nor do I believe, as you do, the lights was the issue either- we didnt necessarily need lights to retain Optus Oval as a venue. Kardinia Park is a viable venue without them and so would Optus have been.

You can choose not to believe these things, but they are true.

The Cats have massive support from local council to play at KP and get a lot more maoney from the gate than we ever got at PP. You can't compare the two cases. Next season the Cats have 8 games there. We could not live on 8 games at PP. We went backwards with 9, barely broke even with 9 plus 4-5 other clubs games.

Not sure how I "blamed" OO for our current situation. Yes, our administration could have continued to fight from the bottom of a deep pit, to keep games there, against the wishes of the AFL (hence, probably limiting our access to assistance and digging a deeper hole). The FACT is that we couldn't support that venue at AFL standards playing 9 home games a year. We used to get other to subsidise........I have said all this before........what don't you understand?

Yes, Collins moved us, and maybe we could have hung on for another year or two.........but without other teams games there we would have continued to go backwards, and without lights there the AFL were not going to schedule enough games there to keep our heads above water.
We had to move.

I believe it was a combination of stupid decisions made by John Elliot and an AFL administration happy to sit back and watch Carlton and Optus Oval self destruct in order to centralise power further.

Stupid decisions by JE? He made many, but he was the great champion of PP. He was determined to have everything there and by and large through the 90's, he got his way. Sadly, he built a big grandstand (that we are still paying off) on the assumption that he would get his way with the lights and PP would become Melbournes second "home of football" after he helped kill Waverly (for that purpose).

Once night football became a feature and Waverly was doomed, the AFL wanted a second ground capable of hosting AFL games, night and day.
No lights = no night games = minimal TV = no PP = new venue with no restrictions. = Docklands.

You can choose not to beleive it........but have a look at how many night games TD does, and tell me I'm wrong.

Then do a search on this topic from a few months back and re-read all the arguements.
This race, much like the "Houlihan is soft" debate has been run and won so many times, that it's silly to continue stating what are known facts only to have people dispute them because they want an arguement, or their recollection of history is either too short or extremely faulty.