CEY: training camp ripped the heart out of Adelaide Crows

[Bovo]

Seems like players departing don’t want to completely shit on the club, but still want to be heard diplomatically

Yeah it looks that way and for the most part it seems a fairly respectful way.

I will say, this whole thing got me thinking. The club was treating its players like us fans and by that I mean, rhe club hasn’t really gone out of their way until lately with the review to give us peace of mind. Fans are frustrated, players are frustrated. It is concerning the club was so out of touch with these pivotal pieces.

 

[Shadow89]

Wrong. The reputation doesn't have to be good or bad to start with. It's simply about breaking down a character or nullifying their characteristics, attempting to inflict emotional pain for personal gratification. Attacking the person and not the debate.

Reading through this thread as a neutral observer (and someone who has followed this saga quite closely due to my experience with mental health), I have to say, that most of what you post is more speculative and fictitious than the so called 'speculation' and 'fiction' you purport to be arguing against.

I want to preface this by saying, that I apologise for the length of this post, but you have so many outlandish statements, that I feel I have to address them given a lot of them aren't based on empirical evidence.

Point in case, let's start with the above comment to demonstrate your egotistic attitude in this thread - "the reputation doesn't have to be good or bad to start with. It's simply about breaking down a character or nullifying their characteristics, attempting to inflict emotional pain for personal gratification."

A quick google of 'character assassination will give you several dictionary definitions:


character assassination
noun

the malicious and unjustified harming of a person's good reputation.
"all too often they discredit themselves by engaging in character assassination"

********************

Character assassination definition is - the slandering of a person usually with the intention of destroying public confidence in that person.

*********************

Described as “the action of damaging the good reputation of someone; slander or libel” (this is a definition used by law)

**********************

A character assassination is a deliberate attempt to destroy someone's reputation, especially by criticizing them in an unfair and dishonest way

**********************

Given that the poster was pointing out how you didn't have a 'good' reputation to begin with, their interpretation is correct. Yours is not. You can't destroy someone's reputation if they don't have much of one to begin with.

Now that we have that out of the way, I'd like to address some of your more offensive posts. Let's start with your understanding of trauma and how 'immediate reactions should usually follow.'

Trauma is different for nearly every single different person, but one of the most common narratives in those who suffer trauma, is the 'trigger point' that sets off this trauma. For a war veteran it might be the sound of heavy rain during a storm, that reflects artillery fire during their time in the military. For a child who was abused during their formative years, it could be specific words, certain tones, actions committed by those in the present, or merely being in contact with their abuser in some form. For a rape victim it could be the way a new lover touches them in a similar fashion, or if a similar case appears in the news or through word of mouth - friends, family etc. The trigger point for Adelaide players, appeared to be in Round 10, 2018.

The narrative suggests that players, while incensed and upset with their treatment post 2017 GF at the Mind Camp, were still able to play as a 'group' post camp/2017 GF. A frank and open discussion was had early on, that discussed how players felt and how they were unhappy with some aspects of the camp. This led to Pyke assuring the players that ties would be severed with the camp, and everyone moves on. The 'trigger' then happens sometime in between Round 9 and Round 10 2018, when it's revealed that players have been told that, contrary to prior statements, that management has decided they will be attending the camp again. The proof then reveals itself over the coming 18 months that leads to a fall from 1st and Runner up Premiers, to 12th and 11th and a complete rebuild.

Your next offensive statement, is your attitude towards how players reacted and a 'nothing to see here' approach. Let's address first the fact that you only have 1 Indigenous player remaining on your list from those who attended the 2017 camp - Wayne Milera. Ben Davis was on your list at the time, but there was no indication that rookies or new draftees would have been involved in the camp.

Charlie Cameron, Eddie Betts and Cam Ellis-Yolman, have all left your club in the past 2 years. Cameron cited the Adelaide 'football bubble', as his reason to leave, which is a fair enough reason. It's Betts and Ellis-Yolman that provide the most scrutiny, however.

Betts, an Adelaide native, returns to your club in 2013, citing 'family reasons' and 'wanting to settle down', as his reasoning. He plays 4 years of remarkable footy, and earns a 3 year contract extension in 2017 - unheard of for your club to do this at his age, apparently.

2 years later, he leaves, while still contracted, back to his original club in Carlton. This is amid reports that his wife was 'incensed' at the treatment of Eddie, and other Indigenous players. Logic dictates, that only a player who is deeply unhappy, is going to leave his home town where he's settled down and started his family (like he said he wanted), in order to return to the place away from home where he began. He's also not going to a club like Richmond, but a perennial cellar dweller, in Carlton. This suggests a player that does not care where he goes, whether it be for success or not, as long as it's away from Adelaide.

It is Ellis-Yolman, and his revealing comments however, that provide the most scrutiny. Contrary to your objections and your statements about 'speculation', CEY actually said, on air, that the camp left the players divided and 'ripped the heart out' of the playing group. That is not hearsay, those are his words. For you to trivialize that, and essentially downgrade his feelings towards a situation he ACTUALLY experienced - unlike you a random big footy commentator - is insanely disrespectful and frankly a little insane, given the plethora of evidence available. This has now been followed up by comments from Greenwood that state:

"I didn't agree with all the decisions they made. After 2017 I could feel things were bubbling and it was only a matter of time before the lid came off."

That statement, while slightly less incendiary, also highlights a player that has left after being dissatisfied with the aforementioned sequence of events. This is all the while, while your club is being independently reviewed, due to the publicly revealed issues going on within the club.

So to recap, this is now the sequence of events you have laid out in front of you (not speculation, actual verifiable data):

- 2017 GF, you guys lose the Grand Final and your mental fortitude is questioned

- Post 2017 GF, Charlie Cameron is traded to Brisbane and Jake Lever to Melbourne. Bryce Gibbs is traded in from Carlton.

- Post 2017 GF, you guys go on a pre-season camp with Collective Mind, and return to pre-season training.

- 2018, you lose your first game against Essendon, and go on to win 6 of the next 8.

- 2018, Round 10, you are absolutely belted by Melbourne, and don't even look like caring for most of the match.

- 2018, Post Round 10, it emerges that a sit down was had in Round 5 with players amidst rumours emerging surrounding events at the Collective Mind camp. Ties were severed to the camp after this meeting.

- 2018, it emerges that in between Round 9 and 10, Don Pyke reinstated ties to the Collective Mind camp, and said that players would be attending again.

- 2018, Rounds 11-23, you guys go on to have a 6-6 W/L record, and 12-10 overall W/L record. You miss finals marginally, after finish equal on points with 9, 10 and 11, but lowest on percentage.

- 2018, Mitch McGovern requests a trade to Carlton, the wooden spooner. This is despite being contracted until end of 2020. He cites the 'failed pre-season camp' as 'one of the reasons for the trade.' He also cites his relationship with assistant coach David Teague at Adelaide, as another reason.

- 2019, more details emerge about the camp. Crows miss finals again and finish 11th. This is despite having a decent injury run compared to the previous year. Lacklustre efforts show on field, and a disconnect appears to show between the players and the club.

- 2019 post-season, an independent review is ordered and interviews are conducted with players and staff that are kept confidential. Outcome finds that Brett Burton and Scott Camporeale will no longer be required at the AFC.

- 2019 post-season, Hugh Greenwood, Alex Keath, Eddie Betts, Sam Jacobs, Cam Ellis-Yolmen, all request trades or are 'forced out' for various reasons.

- 2019 post-season, Cam Ellis-Yolmen reveals that the Mind Camp, 'ripped the heart out of players' and 'divided the playing group.'

- 2019 post-season, Eddie Betts is asked about these comments in an interview and does not deny them. Rather he classily says that 'he doesn't want to talk about the camp' and wants to talk about the 'great opportunity' he has to 'come home to Carlton.'

- 2019 post-season, Hugh Greenwood states that he 'didn't agree with all the decisions they (AFC) made, and that 'I could feel things bubbling' and 'it was only a matter of time before the lid came off.'

**************************

You can choose not to believe these people. You can choose to ignore the sequence of events and interpret it how you will. What you cannot do is refute actual statements or actual details revealed by actual people involved. Logic dictates that Burton and Camporeale were fired, because of their involvement. Logic also dictates that a contracted player like Betts would not uproot his family to go home to Adelaide, and then uproot them again at 32 years old, to go to a perennial cellar-dwelling club, whilst in contract.

You seem unwilling, however, to acknowledge anything that doesn't fall in line with your world view or your interpretation. When people correct you, you just dismiss it, and act superior.

I've written this long-ass essay, because it has irked me reading certain things that I know to be untrue, given my experience with both academia and in the mental health industry. You need to acknowledge that you don't know certain things, and that you might actually be wrong. To do otherwise when you have been supplied all of this information from a plethora of different posters, is both pompous and arrogant. It's also just ridiculous. You remind me of Donald Trump and his supporters, given your penchant for your espousal of 'fake news' commentary.

I won't post again, as this is an Adelaide board, but seriously, you need to listen to your fellow posters and eat a bit of humble pie. You can be wrong sometimes. Be a grown up and accept it. You're not a mental health professional, nor are you a linguistics scholar. You also weren't involved in the camp or the club (I hope), so you have no expertise in any of these fields/areas/debates. Quit acting like you're the all knowing overseer of all things. It's embarrassing and you're just making yourself look devoid of sense the more you do it.

Peace.

 

[John Who]

Reading through this thread as a neutral observer (and someone who has followed this saga quite closely due to my experience with mental health), I have to say, that most of what you post is more speculative and fictitious than the so called 'speculation' and 'fiction' you purport to be arguing against.

I want to preface this by saying, that I apologise for the length of this post, but you have so many outlandish statements, that I feel I have to address them given a lot of them aren't based on empirical evidence.

Point in case, let's start with the above comment to demonstrate your egotistic attitude in this thread - "the reputation doesn't have to be good or bad to start with. It's simply about breaking down a character or nullifying their characteristics, attempting to inflict emotional pain for personal gratification."

A quick google of 'character assassination will give you several dictionary definitions:


character assassination
noun

the malicious and unjustified harming of a person's good reputation.
"all too often they discredit themselves by engaging in character assassination"

********************

Character assassination definition is - the slandering of a person usually with the intention of destroying public confidence in that person.

*********************

Described as “the action of damaging the good reputation of someone; slander or libel” (this is a definition used by law)

**********************

A character assassination is a deliberate attempt to destroy someone's reputation, especially by criticizing them in an unfair and dishonest way

**********************

Given that the poster was pointing out how you didn't have a 'good' reputation to begin with, their interpretation is correct. Yours is not. You can't destroy someone's reputation if they don't have much of one to begin with.

Now that we have that out of the way, I'd like to address some of your more offensive posts. Let's start with your understanding of trauma and how 'immediate reactions should usually follow.'

Trauma is different for nearly every single different person, but one of the most common narratives in those who suffer trauma, is the 'trigger point' that sets off this trauma. For a war veteran it might be the sound of heavy rain during a storm, that reflects artillery fire during their time in the military. For a child who was abused during their formative years, it could be specific words, certain tones, actions committed by those in the present, or merely being in contact with their abuser in some form. For a rape victim it could be the way a new lover touches them in a similar fashion, or if a similar case appears in the news or through word of mouth - friends, family etc. The trigger point for Adelaide players, appeared to be in Round 10, 2018.

The narrative suggests that players, while incensed and upset with their treatment post 2017 GF at the Mind Camp, were still able to play as a 'group' post camp/2017 GF. A frank and open discussion was had early on, that discussed how players felt and how they were unhappy with some aspects of the camp. This led to Pyke assuring the players that ties would be severed with the camp, and everyone moves on. The 'trigger' then happens sometime in between Round 9 and Round 10 2018, when it's revealed that players have been told that, contrary to prior statements, that management has decided they will be attending the camp again. The proof then reveals itself over the coming 18 months that leads to a fall from 1st and Runner up Premiers, to 12th and 11th and a complete rebuild.

Your next offensive statement, is your attitude towards how players reacted and a 'nothing to see here' approach. Let's address first the fact that you only have 1 Indigenous player remaining on your list from those who attended the 2017 camp - Wayne Milera. Ben Davis was on your list at the time, but there was no indication that rookies or new draftees would have been involved in the camp.

Charlie Cameron, Eddie Betts and Cam Ellis-Yolman, have all left your club in the past 2 years. Cameron cited the Adelaide 'football bubble', as his reason to leave, which is a fair enough reason. It's Betts and Ellis-Yolman that provide the most scrutiny, however.

Betts, an Adelaide native, returns to your club in 2013, citing 'family reasons' and 'wanting to settle down', as his reasoning. He plays 4 years of remarkable footy, and earns a 3 year contract extension in 2017 - unheard of for your club to do this apparently.

2 years later, he leaves, while still contracted, back to his original club in Carlton. This is amid reports that his wife was 'incensed' at the treatment of Eddie, and other Indigenous players. Logic dictates, that only a player who is deeply unhappy, is going to leave his home town where he's settled down and started his family (like he said he wanted), in order to return to the place away from home where he began. He's also not going to a club like Richmond, but a perennial cellar dwellar, in Carlton. This suggests a player that does not care where he goes, whether it be for success or not, as long as it's away from Adelaide.

It is Ellis-Yolman, and his revealing comments however, that provide the most scrutiny. Contrary to your objections and your statements about 'speculation', CEY actually said, on air, that the camp left the players divided and 'ripped the heart out' of the playing group. That is not hearsay, those are his words. For you to trivialise that, and essentially downgrade his feelings towards a situation he ACTUALLY experienced - unlike you a random big footy commentator - is insanely disrespectful and frankly a little insane, given the plethora of evidence available. This has now been followed up by comments from Greenwood that state:

"I didn't agree with all the decisions they made. After 2017 I could feel things were bubbling and it was only a matter of time before the lid came off."

That statement, while slightly less incendiary, also highlights a player that has left after being dissatisfied with the aforementioned sequence of events. This is all the while, while your club is being independently reviewed, due to the publicly revealed issues going on within the club.

So to recap, this is now the sequence of events you have laid out in front of you (not speculation, actual verifiable data):

- 2017 GF, you guys lose the Grand Final and your mental fortitude is questioned

- Post 2017 GF, Charlie Cameron is traded to Brisbane and Jake Lever to Melbourne. Bryce Gibbs is traded in from Carlton.

- Post 2017 GF, you guys go on a pre-season camp with Collective Mind, and return to pre-season training.

- 2018, you lose your first game against Essendon, and go on to win 6 of the next 8.

- 2018, Round 10, you are absolutely belted by Melbourne, and don't even look like caring for most of the match.

- 2018, Post Round 10, it emerges that a sit down was had in Round 5 with players amidst rumours emerging surrounding events at the Collective Mind camp. Ties were severed to the camp after this meeting.

- 2018, it emerges that in between Round 9 and 10, Don Pyke reinstated ties to the Collective Mind camp, and said that players would be attending again.

- 2018, Rounds 11-23, you guys go on to have a 6-6 W/L record, and 12-10 overall W/L record. You miss finals marginally, after finish equal on points with 9, 10 and 11, but lowest on percentage.

- 2018, Mitch McGovern requests a trade to Carlton, the wooden spooner. This is despite being contracted until end of 2020. He cites the 'failed pre-season camp' as 'one of the reasons for the trade.' He also cites his relationship with assistant coach David Teague at Adelaide, as another reason.

- 2019, more details emerge about the camp. Crows miss finals again and finish 11th. This is despite having a decent injury run compared to the previous year. Lacklustre efforts show on field, and a disconnect appears to show between the players and the club.

- 2019 post-season, an independent review is ordered and interviews are conducted with players and staff that are kept confidential. Outcome finds that Brett Burton and Scott Camporeale will no longer be required at the AFC.

- 2019 post-season, Hugh Greenwood, Alex Keath, Eddie Betts, Sam Jacobs, Cam Ellis-Yolmen, all request trades or are 'forced out' for various reasons.

- 2019 post-season, Cam Ellis-Yolmen reveals that the Mind Camp, 'ripped the heart out of players' and 'divided the playing group.'

- 2019 post-season, Eddie Betts is asked about these comments in an interview and does not deny them. Rather he classily says that 'he doesn't want to talk about the camp' and wants to talk about the 'great opportunity' he has to 'come home to Carlton.'

- 2019 post-season, Hugh Greenwood states that he 'didn't agree with all the decisions they (AFC) made, and that 'I could feel things bubbling' and 'it was only a matter of time before the lid came off.'

**************************

You can choose not to believe these people. You can choose to ignore the sequence of events and interpret it how you will. What you cannot do is refute actual statements or actual details revealed by actual people involved. Logic dictates that Burton and Camporeale were fired, because of their involvement. Logic also dictates that a contracted player like Betts would not uproot his family to go home to Adelaide, and then uproot them again at 32 years old, to go to a perennial cellar-dwelling club, whilst in contract.

You seem unwilling, however, to acknowledge anything that doesn't fall in line with your world view or your interpretation. When people correct you, you just dismiss it, and act superior.

I've written this long-ass essay, because it has irked me reading certain things that I know to be untrue, given my experience with both academia and in the mental health industry. You need to acknowledge that you don't know certain things, and that you might actually be wrong. To do otherwise when you have been supplied all of this information from a plethora of different posters, is both pompous and arrogant. It's also just ridiculous. You remind me of Donald Trump and his supporters, given your penchant for your espousal of 'fake news' commentary.

I won't post again, as this is an Adelaide board, but seriously, you need to listen to your fellow posters and eat a bit of humble pie. You can be wrong sometimes. Be a grown up and accept it. You're not a mental health professional, nor are you a linguistics scholar. You also weren't involved in the camp or the club (I hope), so you have no expertise in any of these fields/areas/debates. Quit acting like you're the all knowing overseer of all things. It's embarrassing and you're just making yourself look devoid of sense the more you do it.

Peace.

You really have shown a keen interest in this saga, and I applaud you for making a lengthy post. Though you have grossly misinterpreted my intent on posting what I’ve been posting.

Regarding the personal attack, if you’ve been having mental health, then you should know it should never be on, no matter what anyone’s “reputation” is. And I’m saying this from a person who have had mental illness in the past and dealings with mental health in my line of work. I have evidence to prove this.

Back to my intent: giving people more insight from an angle of mental health awareness and to promote informed opinions. If there are no actual facts regarding what went on in the camp to suggest a massive disaster, then the more ideas from all angles, the better. I’ve never stated I know what went on, more the angle of it couldn’t have been serious from various reasons I’ve already mentioned in prior posts. That is my opinion based on my background understanding.

For others to attack me, that is a reflection on them being idiots or wannabe-bullies. There are a few others who share a similar vein of thoughts but don’t wish to go further their reasonings. I just happen to like sharing my thoughts, it ain’t a crime.

 

[Sanders]

Reading through this thread as a neutral observer (and someone who has followed this saga quite closely due to my experience with mental health), I have to say, that most of what you post is more speculative and fictitious than the so called 'speculation' and 'fiction' you purport to be arguing against.

I want to preface this by saying, that I apologise for the length of this post, but you have so many outlandish statements, that I feel I have to address them given a lot of them aren't based on empirical evidence.

Point in case, let's start with the above comment to demonstrate your egotistic attitude in this thread - "the reputation doesn't have to be good or bad to start with. It's simply about breaking down a character or nullifying their characteristics, attempting to inflict emotional pain for personal gratification."

A quick google of 'character assassination will give you several dictionary definitions:


character assassination
noun

the malicious and unjustified harming of a person's good reputation.
"all too often they discredit themselves by engaging in character assassination"

********************

Character assassination definition is - the slandering of a person usually with the intention of destroying public confidence in that person.

*********************

Described as “the action of damaging the good reputation of someone; slander or libel” (this is a definition used by law)

**********************

A character assassination is a deliberate attempt to destroy someone's reputation, especially by criticizing them in an unfair and dishonest way

**********************

Given that the poster was pointing out how you didn't have a 'good' reputation to begin with, their interpretation is correct. Yours is not. You can't destroy someone's reputation if they don't have much of one to begin with.

Now that we have that out of the way, I'd like to address some of your more offensive posts. Let's start with your understanding of trauma and how 'immediate reactions should usually follow.'

Trauma is different for nearly every single different person, but one of the most common narratives in those who suffer trauma, is the 'trigger point' that sets off this trauma. For a war veteran it might be the sound of heavy rain during a storm, that reflects artillery fire during their time in the military. For a child who was abused during their formative years, it could be specific words, certain tones, actions committed by those in the present, or merely being in contact with their abuser in some form. For a rape victim it could be the way a new lover touches them in a similar fashion, or if a similar case appears in the news or through word of mouth - friends, family etc. The trigger point for Adelaide players, appeared to be in Round 10, 2018.

The narrative suggests that players, while incensed and upset with their treatment post 2017 GF at the Mind Camp, were still able to play as a 'group' post camp/2017 GF. A frank and open discussion was had early on, that discussed how players felt and how they were unhappy with some aspects of the camp. This led to Pyke assuring the players that ties would be severed with the camp, and everyone moves on. The 'trigger' then happens sometime in between Round 9 and Round 10 2018, when it's revealed that players have been told that, contrary to prior statements, that management has decided they will be attending the camp again. The proof then reveals itself over the coming 18 months that leads to a fall from 1st and Runner up Premiers, to 12th and 11th and a complete rebuild.

Your next offensive statement, is your attitude towards how players reacted and a 'nothing to see here' approach. Let's address first the fact that you only have 1 Indigenous player remaining on your list from those who attended the 2017 camp - Wayne Milera. Ben Davis was on your list at the time, but there was no indication that rookies or new draftees would have been involved in the camp.

Charlie Cameron, Eddie Betts and Cam Ellis-Yolman, have all left your club in the past 2 years. Cameron cited the Adelaide 'football bubble', as his reason to leave, which is a fair enough reason. It's Betts and Ellis-Yolman that provide the most scrutiny, however.

Betts, an Adelaide native, returns to your club in 2013, citing 'family reasons' and 'wanting to settle down', as his reasoning. He plays 4 years of remarkable footy, and earns a 3 year contract extension in 2017 - unheard of for your club to do this at his age, apparently.

2 years later, he leaves, while still contracted, back to his original club in Carlton. This is amid reports that his wife was 'incensed' at the treatment of Eddie, and other Indigenous players. Logic dictates, that only a player who is deeply unhappy, is going to leave his home town where he's settled down and started his family (like he said he wanted), in order to return to the place away from home where he began. He's also not going to a club like Richmond, but a perennial cellar dweller, in Carlton. This suggests a player that does not care where he goes, whether it be for success or not, as long as it's away from Adelaide.

It is Ellis-Yolman, and his revealing comments however, that provide the most scrutiny. Contrary to your objections and your statements about 'speculation', CEY actually said, on air, that the camp left the players divided and 'ripped the heart out' of the playing group. That is not hearsay, those are his words. For you to trivialize that, and essentially downgrade his feelings towards a situation he ACTUALLY experienced - unlike you a random big footy commentator - is insanely disrespectful and frankly a little insane, given the plethora of evidence available. This has now been followed up by comments from Greenwood that state:

"I didn't agree with all the decisions they made. After 2017 I could feel things were bubbling and it was only a matter of time before the lid came off."

That statement, while slightly less incendiary, also highlights a player that has left after being dissatisfied with the aforementioned sequence of events. This is all the while, while your club is being independently reviewed, due to the publicly revealed issues going on within the club.

So to recap, this is now the sequence of events you have laid out in front of you (not speculation, actual verifiable data):

- 2017 GF, you guys lose the Grand Final and your mental fortitude is questioned

- Post 2017 GF, Charlie Cameron is traded to Brisbane and Jake Lever to Melbourne. Bryce Gibbs is traded in from Carlton.

- Post 2017 GF, you guys go on a pre-season camp with Collective Mind, and return to pre-season training.

- 2018, you lose your first game against Essendon, and go on to win 6 of the next 8.

- 2018, Round 10, you are absolutely belted by Melbourne, and don't even look like caring for most of the match.

- 2018, Post Round 10, it emerges that a sit down was had in Round 5 with players amidst rumours emerging surrounding events at the Collective Mind camp. Ties were severed to the camp after this meeting.

- 2018, it emerges that in between Round 9 and 10, Don Pyke reinstated ties to the Collective Mind camp, and said that players would be attending again.

- 2018, Rounds 11-23, you guys go on to have a 6-6 W/L record, and 12-10 overall W/L record. You miss finals marginally, after finish equal on points with 9, 10 and 11, but lowest on percentage.

- 2018, Mitch McGovern requests a trade to Carlton, the wooden spooner. This is despite being contracted until end of 2020. He cites the 'failed pre-season camp' as 'one of the reasons for the trade.' He also cites his relationship with assistant coach David Teague at Adelaide, as another reason.

- 2019, more details emerge about the camp. Crows miss finals again and finish 11th. This is despite having a decent injury run compared to the previous year. Lacklustre efforts show on field, and a disconnect appears to show between the players and the club.

- 2019 post-season, an independent review is ordered and interviews are conducted with players and staff that are kept confidential. Outcome finds that Brett Burton and Scott Camporeale will no longer be required at the AFC.

- 2019 post-season, Hugh Greenwood, Alex Keath, Eddie Betts, Sam Jacobs, Cam Ellis-Yolmen, all request trades or are 'forced out' for various reasons.

- 2019 post-season, Cam Ellis-Yolmen reveals that the Mind Camp, 'ripped the heart out of players' and 'divided the playing group.'

- 2019 post-season, Eddie Betts is asked about these comments in an interview and does not deny them. Rather he classily says that 'he doesn't want to talk about the camp' and wants to talk about the 'great opportunity' he has to 'come home to Carlton.'

- 2019 post-season, Hugh Greenwood states that he 'didn't agree with all the decisions they (AFC) made, and that 'I could feel things bubbling' and 'it was only a matter of time before the lid came off.'

**************************

You can choose not to believe these people. You can choose to ignore the sequence of events and interpret it how you will. What you cannot do is refute actual statements or actual details revealed by actual people involved. Logic dictates that Burton and Camporeale were fired, because of their involvement. Logic also dictates that a contracted player like Betts would not uproot his family to go home to Adelaide, and then uproot them again at 32 years old, to go to a perennial cellar-dwelling club, whilst in contract.

You seem unwilling, however, to acknowledge anything that doesn't fall in line with your world view or your interpretation. When people correct you, you just dismiss it, and act superior.

I've written this long-ass essay, because it has irked me reading certain things that I know to be untrue, given my experience with both academia and in the mental health industry. You need to acknowledge that you don't know certain things, and that you might actually be wrong. To do otherwise when you have been supplied all of this information from a plethora of different posters, is both pompous and arrogant. It's also just ridiculous. You remind me of Donald Trump and his supporters, given your penchant for your espousal of 'fake news' commentary.

I won't post again, as this is an Adelaide board, but seriously, you need to listen to your fellow posters and eat a bit of humble pie. You can be wrong sometimes. Be a grown up and accept it. You're not a mental health professional, nor are you a linguistics scholar. You also weren't involved in the camp or the club (I hope), so you have no expertise in any of these fields/areas/debates. Quit acting like you're the all knowing overseer of all things. It's embarrassing and you're just making yourself look devoid of sense the more you do it.

Peace.

Sweet Jesus, like is not enough

Quoted for awesomeness recognition

 

[ftmch]

What should have happened:
AFC to players: "Sorry fellas, the camp was a big stuff up by us and we cannot apologise enough. If you have any issues with anything to do with the camp, let us know, let's talk about it and figure out how we can fix the mistake we've made here."

AFC to media: "You have heard reports about the camp - in hindsight it was the wrong decision and we are taking every step to ensure the players affected are helped and to avoid any repeats or lingering problems"

Media: move on and find a new scandal now that this has been handled professionally and maturely.

Fans: "Damn, we stuffed up but at least we're trying to fix it and move on"

Net result - over by the mid-season bye and a weird footnote on a grand final hangover.

What actually happened:
AFC to players: denial, unfulfilled promises.

AFC to media: deny, deny, deny, feign offense, eventually order an external review almost two years later.

Media: naturally keep prodding the issue because it's ...well, news.

Fans: lose faith in the football department.

Net result - two wasted seasons, a fractured playing group that has lost a lot of trust, and players leaving.

Pretty fair summary I would have thought

Sent from my SM-N976B using Tapatalk

 

[Sanders]

For others to attack me, that is a reflection on them being idiots or wannabe-bullies.

John,

your postings strongly suggest a disingenuous agenda aligned with a less than pristine cognitive engine

Surely you must accept that you have become an unserious figure of fun as a result of these specious motivations

 

[ftmch]

Aurelio Vidmar was correct. Adelaide is a pissant town

Ex-pats who make blanket derogatory statements about Adelaide, as if they they know better than the hundreds of thousands of people who love it here and gladly call it home, can gagf.

Fair enough if it's not your cup of tea, but respect that for a shitload of people it is. Nothing is gained by hanging shit on your ex home town - it's nothing more than grandstanding and conforming with uninformed east coat groupthink.

Sent from my SM-N976B using Tapatalk

 

[crowsup]

Reading through this thread as a neutral observer (and someone who has followed this saga quite closely due to my experience with mental health), I have to say, that most of what you post is more speculative and fictitious than the so called 'speculation' and 'fiction' you purport to be arguing against.

I want to preface this by saying, that I apologise for the length of this post, but you have so many outlandish statements, that I feel I have to address them given a lot of them aren't based on empirical evidence.

Point in case, let's start with the above comment to demonstrate your egotistic attitude in this thread - "the reputation doesn't have to be good or bad to start with. It's simply about breaking down a character or nullifying their characteristics, attempting to inflict emotional pain for personal gratification."

A quick google of 'character assassination will give you several dictionary definitions:


character assassination
noun

the malicious and unjustified harming of a person's good reputation.
"all too often they discredit themselves by engaging in character assassination"

********************

Character assassination definition is - the slandering of a person usually with the intention of destroying public confidence in that person.

*********************

Described as “the action of damaging the good reputation of someone; slander or libel” (this is a definition used by law)

**********************

A character assassination is a deliberate attempt to destroy someone's reputation, especially by criticizing them in an unfair and dishonest way

**********************

Given that the poster was pointing out how you didn't have a 'good' reputation to begin with, their interpretation is correct. Yours is not. You can't destroy someone's reputation if they don't have much of one to begin with.

Now that we have that out of the way, I'd like to address some of your more offensive posts. Let's start with your understanding of trauma and how 'immediate reactions should usually follow.'

Trauma is different for nearly every single different person, but one of the most common narratives in those who suffer trauma, is the 'trigger point' that sets off this trauma. For a war veteran it might be the sound of heavy rain during a storm, that reflects artillery fire during their time in the military. For a child who was abused during their formative years, it could be specific words, certain tones, actions committed by those in the present, or merely being in contact with their abuser in some form. For a rape victim it could be the way a new lover touches them in a similar fashion, or if a similar case appears in the news or through word of mouth - friends, family etc. The trigger point for Adelaide players, appeared to be in Round 10, 2018.

The narrative suggests that players, while incensed and upset with their treatment post 2017 GF at the Mind Camp, were still able to play as a 'group' post camp/2017 GF. A frank and open discussion was had early on, that discussed how players felt and how they were unhappy with some aspects of the camp. This led to Pyke assuring the players that ties would be severed with the camp, and everyone moves on. The 'trigger' then happens sometime in between Round 9 and Round 10 2018, when it's revealed that players have been told that, contrary to prior statements, that management has decided they will be attending the camp again. The proof then reveals itself over the coming 18 months that leads to a fall from 1st and Runner up Premiers, to 12th and 11th and a complete rebuild.

Your next offensive statement, is your attitude towards how players reacted and a 'nothing to see here' approach. Let's address first the fact that you only have 1 Indigenous player remaining on your list from those who attended the 2017 camp - Wayne Milera. Ben Davis was on your list at the time, but there was no indication that rookies or new draftees would have been involved in the camp.

Charlie Cameron, Eddie Betts and Cam Ellis-Yolman, have all left your club in the past 2 years. Cameron cited the Adelaide 'football bubble', as his reason to leave, which is a fair enough reason. It's Betts and Ellis-Yolman that provide the most scrutiny, however.

Betts, an Adelaide native, returns to your club in 2013, citing 'family reasons' and 'wanting to settle down', as his reasoning. He plays 4 years of remarkable footy, and earns a 3 year contract extension in 2017 - unheard of for your club to do this at his age, apparently.

2 years later, he leaves, while still contracted, back to his original club in Carlton. This is amid reports that his wife was 'incensed' at the treatment of Eddie, and other Indigenous players. Logic dictates, that only a player who is deeply unhappy, is going to leave his home town where he's settled down and started his family (like he said he wanted), in order to return to the place away from home where he began. He's also not going to a club like Richmond, but a perennial cellar dweller, in Carlton. This suggests a player that does not care where he goes, whether it be for success or not, as long as it's away from Adelaide.

It is Ellis-Yolman, and his revealing comments however, that provide the most scrutiny. Contrary to your objections and your statements about 'speculation', CEY actually said, on air, that the camp left the players divided and 'ripped the heart out' of the playing group. That is not hearsay, those are his words. For you to trivialize that, and essentially downgrade his feelings towards a situation he ACTUALLY experienced - unlike you a random big footy commentator - is insanely disrespectful and frankly a little insane, given the plethora of evidence available. This has now been followed up by comments from Greenwood that state:

"I didn't agree with all the decisions they made. After 2017 I could feel things were bubbling and it was only a matter of time before the lid came off."

That statement, while slightly less incendiary, also highlights a player that has left after being dissatisfied with the aforementioned sequence of events. This is all the while, while your club is being independently reviewed, due to the publicly revealed issues going on within the club.

So to recap, this is now the sequence of events you have laid out in front of you (not speculation, actual verifiable data):

- 2017 GF, you guys lose the Grand Final and your mental fortitude is questioned

- Post 2017 GF, Charlie Cameron is traded to Brisbane and Jake Lever to Melbourne. Bryce Gibbs is traded in from Carlton.

- Post 2017 GF, you guys go on a pre-season camp with Collective Mind, and return to pre-season training.

- 2018, you lose your first game against Essendon, and go on to win 6 of the next 8.

- 2018, Round 10, you are absolutely belted by Melbourne, and don't even look like caring for most of the match.

- 2018, Post Round 10, it emerges that a sit down was had in Round 5 with players amidst rumours emerging surrounding events at the Collective Mind camp. Ties were severed to the camp after this meeting.

- 2018, it emerges that in between Round 9 and 10, Don Pyke reinstated ties to the Collective Mind camp, and said that players would be attending again.

- 2018, Rounds 11-23, you guys go on to have a 6-6 W/L record, and 12-10 overall W/L record. You miss finals marginally, after finish equal on points with 9, 10 and 11, but lowest on percentage.

- 2018, Mitch McGovern requests a trade to Carlton, the wooden spooner. This is despite being contracted until end of 2020. He cites the 'failed pre-season camp' as 'one of the reasons for the trade.' He also cites his relationship with assistant coach David Teague at Adelaide, as another reason.

- 2019, more details emerge about the camp. Crows miss finals again and finish 11th. This is despite having a decent injury run compared to the previous year. Lacklustre efforts show on field, and a disconnect appears to show between the players and the club.

- 2019 post-season, an independent review is ordered and interviews are conducted with players and staff that are kept confidential. Outcome finds that Brett Burton and Scott Camporeale will no longer be required at the AFC.

- 2019 post-season, Hugh Greenwood, Alex Keath, Eddie Betts, Sam Jacobs, Cam Ellis-Yolmen, all request trades or are 'forced out' for various reasons.

- 2019 post-season, Cam Ellis-Yolmen reveals that the Mind Camp, 'ripped the heart out of players' and 'divided the playing group.'

- 2019 post-season, Eddie Betts is asked about these comments in an interview and does not deny them. Rather he classily says that 'he doesn't want to talk about the camp' and wants to talk about the 'great opportunity' he has to 'come home to Carlton.'

- 2019 post-season, Hugh Greenwood states that he 'didn't agree with all the decisions they (AFC) made, and that 'I could feel things bubbling' and 'it was only a matter of time before the lid came off.'

**************************

You can choose not to believe these people. You can choose to ignore the sequence of events and interpret it how you will. What you cannot do is refute actual statements or actual details revealed by actual people involved. Logic dictates that Burton and Camporeale were fired, because of their involvement. Logic also dictates that a contracted player like Betts would not uproot his family to go home to Adelaide, and then uproot them again at 32 years old, to go to a perennial cellar-dwelling club, whilst in contract.

You seem unwilling, however, to acknowledge anything that doesn't fall in line with your world view or your interpretation. When people correct you, you just dismiss it, and act superior.

I've written this long-ass essay, because it has irked me reading certain things that I know to be untrue, given my experience with both academia and in the mental health industry. You need to acknowledge that you don't know certain things, and that you might actually be wrong. To do otherwise when you have been supplied all of this information from a plethora of different posters, is both pompous and arrogant. It's also just ridiculous. You remind me of Donald Trump and his supporters, given your penchant for your espousal of 'fake news' commentary.

I won't post again, as this is an Adelaide board, but seriously, you need to listen to your fellow posters and eat a bit of humble pie. You can be wrong sometimes. Be a grown up and accept it. You're not a mental health professional, nor are you a linguistics scholar. You also weren't involved in the camp or the club (I hope), so you have no expertise in any of these fields/areas/debates. Quit acting like you're the all knowing overseer of all things. It's embarrassing and you're just making yourself look devoid of sense the more you do it.

Peace.

What a lot of Wank! Just one point on your many assumptions. Betts declared from the day that he was taken as FA, that Carlton was the team in his heart, and that he would go back to live in Victoria at the end of his footy life.
Now, if you had said that he went back earlier than anticipated, and that maybe the camp had something to do with it, I may have believed your ramblings.
But, as it stands, it appears you're an hypocrite to accuse others of interpreting thigs to suit their agenda, and then go and do the same thing yourself.

Pease.

 

[Shadow89]

What a lot of Wank! Just one point on your many assumptions. Betts declared from the day that he was taken as FA, that Carlton was the team in his heart, and that he would go back to live in Victoria at the end of his footy life.
Now, if you had said that he went back earlier than anticipated, and that maybe the camp had something to do with it, I may have believed your ramblings.
But, as it stands, it appears you're an hypocrite to accuse others of interpreting thigs to suit their agenda, and then go and do the same thing yourself.

Pease.

Just so you're aware, that was a quote he made 5 days ago, not 6 years ago.

Betts returns home

Eddie Betts is officially back home at Ikon Park, with the Blues securing the champion small forward.

www.carltonfc.com.au

This is the article from when he left. Nothing in there suggests anything about wanting to return home.

Betts joins Crows - carltonfc.com.au

Eddie Betts has parted ways with the Club after accepting a lucrative offer from the Adelaide Crows.

www.carltonfc.com.au

This is the article that seems to suggest why he left - salary demands not being met.

I can substantiate everything I've said above. You can call it 'wank', but I've used quoted facts and statements, to back up my post. I'm not gonna get into a sh*t fight though with every person that disagrees with me. This is your board. It's your prerogative how you want to interpret and discuss things.

 

[Linekers Ears]

Don't agree. NDAs are common with exercises like those at the camp where participants would be expected to disclose sensitive personal information. And that's fair enough. I don't think it has anything to do with protecting IP or competitive advantage, or even protecting CM from damaging PR.

Do you reckon the AFC has shown the level of nouse and sophistication required to put NDAs in place?

I'd doubt it.

On SM-G920I using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[feenix67]

Betts actually stated pre 2017 that he loved the AFC and wanted to play out his career here. That's on public record.

 

[feenix67]

Do you reckon the AFC has shown the level of nouse and sophistication required to put NDAs in place?

I'd doubt it.

On SM-G920I using BigFooty.com mobile app

Part of the Mankind Project framework is confidentiality regarding what goes on at those camps. I'm led to believe it's more of a pact than a contractual NDA. I would imagine that the obligation players felt and feel about disclosure is out of respect to their mates, not the club or CM or any contractual obligation.

 

[Southerntakeover]

I won't post again, as this is an Adelaide board

You should absolutely feel free to though, good posters always welcome.

 

[Southerntakeover]

You really have shown a keen interest in this saga, and I applaud you for making a lengthy post. Though you have grossly misinterpreted my intent on posting what I’ve been posting.

Regarding the personal attack, if you’ve been having mental health, then you should know it should never be on, no matter what anyone’s “reputation” is. And I’m saying this from a person who have had mental illness in the past and dealings with mental health in my line of work. I have evidence to prove this.

Back to my intent: giving people more insight from an angle of mental health awareness and to promote informed opinions. If there are no actual facts regarding what went on in the camp to suggest a massive disaster, then the more ideas from all angles, the better. I’ve never stated I know what went on, more the angle of it couldn’t have been serious from various reasons I’ve already mentioned in prior posts. That is my opinion based on my background understanding.

For others to attack me, that is a reflection on them being idiots or wannabe-bullies. There are a few others who share a similar vein of thoughts but don’t wish to go further their reasonings. I just happen to like sharing my thoughts, it ain’t a crime.

Maybe take some responsibility for your own behaviour for once.

 

[Large 1]

Public utterances are near on fully scripted. Nobody isn’t not the best, everybody is brilliant. Outside of this forum, did anyone in AFL Land ever suggest that Campo and Burto weren’t brilliant at what they did? Hell, even Richie Douglas still maintained that Campo was, “second to none”. A day or so after he was terminated from the entire industry. It’s astounding that we have apologists here that still use public utterances as proof of how brilliant our staff are.

It’s equally amazing that we have people that despite the numerous statements from players need to insert unsubstantiated BS like ‘the players are lying’ or ‘they have clearly signed a NDA’ so they can keep up their narrative.
Often the simplest answer is the right answer. Maybe the camp was bad but it wasn’t the boogie monster that some want to believe.
maybe our crap performance was based on a crap game plan and poor coach/player communication.

 

[Shadow89]

You really have shown a keen interest in this saga, and I applaud you for making a lengthy post. Though you have grossly misinterpreted my intent on posting what I’ve been posting.

Regarding the personal attack, if you’ve been having mental health, then you should know it should never be on, no matter what anyone’s “reputation” is. And I’m saying this from a person who have had mental illness in the past and dealings with mental health in my line of work. I have evidence to prove this.

Back to my intent: giving people more insight from an angle of mental health awareness and to promote informed opinions. If there are no actual facts regarding what went on in the camp to suggest a massive disaster, then the more ideas from all angles, the better. I’ve never stated I know what went on, more the angle of it couldn’t have been serious from various reasons I’ve already mentioned in prior posts. That is my opinion based on my background understanding.

For others to attack me, that is a reflection on them being idiots or wannabe-bullies. There are a few others who share a similar vein of thoughts but don’t wish to go further their reasonings. I just happen to like sharing my thoughts, it ain’t a crime.

Unfortunately, you leave yourself open to this when you misconstrue and make overarching statements about things you're not heavily versed in.

You can't make statements like you have, then walk them back because you act like you're being 'attacked.' That's not a defence. You said those things, you have to own them. I haven't misinterpreted a thing, lol. I quoted the things you said that were most offensive, and I provided reasons why they weren't empirical statements.

Misstating things, does not give you a 'free pass' to just say whatever you want based on your own bias or opinion - true or not. That is exactly what is happening in America right now. Trump is breaking the law in every which way possible, and then cries 'poor me' when the media, public and basically everyone, calls him on his BS.

If you can provide me with sound reasoning, articulated arguments and verifiable sources that prove your point, then you're more than welcome to share. As it stands, I have an academic list a mile long that refutes your statements about trauma being immediate in the aftermath (which you did say, and which was highly offensive). The rest is you just refusing to admit you're wrong, even when people have shown you otherwise. That's narcissism.

It's not attacking you, to tell you you're wrong or to prove you wrong. It's the difference between learning and blindly believing. Your choice is what you choose to do with the information supplied to you. Here's a statement from the post I'm replying to, that demonstrates this:

"I’ve never stated I know what went on, more the angle of it couldn’t have been serious from various reasons I’ve already mentioned in prior posts. That is my opinion based on my background understanding."

The bolded highlights how you simultaneously have highlighted that you only have a 'background understanding based on your opinion', that you've 'never stated you know what went on', but you still say 'it couldn't have been serious from the various reasons I've mentioned.'

You can't state 'it couldn't be', and then say it's just 'opinion' and a 'background understanding.' That's a logical contradiction. It's either opinion, or it couldn't be, because you have verifiable data or a source that proves otherwise. This is what I'm pointing to. You need to realize that your opinion is just that, opinion. It's not proven, and most of the data proves your contentions incorrect. If you accept that, without crying poor about being attacked, without offering a 'yeah but I'm still right', then you'll earn a whole lot more respect from people around you.

As it stands, your only focus is on how you're being treated, not how you're treating delicate issues which you don't fully understand. This is why you're being called out for it.

It's not a crime to have an opinion. It is a problem to have one and call it a fact. Your freedom of speech allows you to comment on things. My freedom of speech allows me to correct you when I believe you're wrong about those things. You don't get to stifle mine, just because you're offended or you don't like criticism. That's how authoritarianism starts.

 

[noddy]

Reading through this thread as a neutral observer (and someone who has followed this saga quite closely due to my experience with mental health), I have to say, that most of what you post is more speculative and fictitious than the so called 'speculation' and 'fiction' you purport to be arguing against.

I want to preface this by saying, that I apologise for the length of this post, but you have so many outlandish statements, that I feel I have to address them given a lot of them aren't based on empirical evidence.

Point in case, let's start with the above comment to demonstrate your egotistic attitude in this thread - "the reputation doesn't have to be good or bad to start with. It's simply about breaking down a character or nullifying their characteristics, attempting to inflict emotional pain for personal gratification."

A quick google of 'character assassination will give you several dictionary definitions:


character assassination
noun

the malicious and unjustified harming of a person's good reputation.
"all too often they discredit themselves by engaging in character assassination"

********************

Character assassination definition is - the slandering of a person usually with the intention of destroying public confidence in that person.

*********************

Described as “the action of damaging the good reputation of someone; slander or libel” (this is a definition used by law)

**********************

A character assassination is a deliberate attempt to destroy someone's reputation, especially by criticizing them in an unfair and dishonest way

**********************

Given that the poster was pointing out how you didn't have a 'good' reputation to begin with, their interpretation is correct. Yours is not. You can't destroy someone's reputation if they don't have much of one to begin with.

Now that we have that out of the way, I'd like to address some of your more offensive posts. Let's start with your understanding of trauma and how 'immediate reactions should usually follow.'

Trauma is different for nearly every single different person, but one of the most common narratives in those who suffer trauma, is the 'trigger point' that sets off this trauma. For a war veteran it might be the sound of heavy rain during a storm, that reflects artillery fire during their time in the military. For a child who was abused during their formative years, it could be specific words, certain tones, actions committed by those in the present, or merely being in contact with their abuser in some form. For a rape victim it could be the way a new lover touches them in a similar fashion, or if a similar case appears in the news or through word of mouth - friends, family etc. The trigger point for Adelaide players, appeared to be in Round 10, 2018.

The narrative suggests that players, while incensed and upset with their treatment post 2017 GF at the Mind Camp, were still able to play as a 'group' post camp/2017 GF. A frank and open discussion was had early on, that discussed how players felt and how they were unhappy with some aspects of the camp. This led to Pyke assuring the players that ties would be severed with the camp, and everyone moves on. The 'trigger' then happens sometime in between Round 9 and Round 10 2018, when it's revealed that players have been told that, contrary to prior statements, that management has decided they will be attending the camp again. The proof then reveals itself over the coming 18 months that leads to a fall from 1st and Runner up Premiers, to 12th and 11th and a complete rebuild.

Your next offensive statement, is your attitude towards how players reacted and a 'nothing to see here' approach. Let's address first the fact that you only have 1 Indigenous player remaining on your list from those who attended the 2017 camp - Wayne Milera. Ben Davis was on your list at the time, but there was no indication that rookies or new draftees would have been involved in the camp.

Charlie Cameron, Eddie Betts and Cam Ellis-Yolman, have all left your club in the past 2 years. Cameron cited the Adelaide 'football bubble', as his reason to leave, which is a fair enough reason. It's Betts and Ellis-Yolman that provide the most scrutiny, however.

Betts, an Adelaide native, returns to your club in 2013, citing 'family reasons' and 'wanting to settle down', as his reasoning. He plays 4 years of remarkable footy, and earns a 3 year contract extension in 2017 - unheard of for your club to do this at his age, apparently.

2 years later, he leaves, while still contracted, back to his original club in Carlton. This is amid reports that his wife was 'incensed' at the treatment of Eddie, and other Indigenous players. Logic dictates, that only a player who is deeply unhappy, is going to leave his home town where he's settled down and started his family (like he said he wanted), in order to return to the place away from home where he began. He's also not going to a club like Richmond, but a perennial cellar dweller, in Carlton. This suggests a player that does not care where he goes, whether it be for success or not, as long as it's away from Adelaide.

It is Ellis-Yolman, and his revealing comments however, that provide the most scrutiny. Contrary to your objections and your statements about 'speculation', CEY actually said, on air, that the camp left the players divided and 'ripped the heart out' of the playing group. That is not hearsay, those are his words. For you to trivialize that, and essentially downgrade his feelings towards a situation he ACTUALLY experienced - unlike you a random big footy commentator - is insanely disrespectful and frankly a little insane, given the plethora of evidence available. This has now been followed up by comments from Greenwood that state:

"I didn't agree with all the decisions they made. After 2017 I could feel things were bubbling and it was only a matter of time before the lid came off."

That statement, while slightly less incendiary, also highlights a player that has left after being dissatisfied with the aforementioned sequence of events. This is all the while, while your club is being independently reviewed, due to the publicly revealed issues going on within the club.

So to recap, this is now the sequence of events you have laid out in front of you (not speculation, actual verifiable data):

- 2017 GF, you guys lose the Grand Final and your mental fortitude is questioned

- Post 2017 GF, Charlie Cameron is traded to Brisbane and Jake Lever to Melbourne. Bryce Gibbs is traded in from Carlton.

- Post 2017 GF, you guys go on a pre-season camp with Collective Mind, and return to pre-season training.

- 2018, you lose your first game against Essendon, and go on to win 6 of the next 8.

- 2018, Round 10, you are absolutely belted by Melbourne, and don't even look like caring for most of the match.

- 2018, Post Round 10, it emerges that a sit down was had in Round 5 with players amidst rumours emerging surrounding events at the Collective Mind camp. Ties were severed to the camp after this meeting.

- 2018, it emerges that in between Round 9 and 10, Don Pyke reinstated ties to the Collective Mind camp, and said that players would be attending again.

- 2018, Rounds 11-23, you guys go on to have a 6-6 W/L record, and 12-10 overall W/L record. You miss finals marginally, after finish equal on points with 9, 10 and 11, but lowest on percentage.

- 2018, Mitch McGovern requests a trade to Carlton, the wooden spooner. This is despite being contracted until end of 2020. He cites the 'failed pre-season camp' as 'one of the reasons for the trade.' He also cites his relationship with assistant coach David Teague at Adelaide, as another reason.

- 2019, more details emerge about the camp. Crows miss finals again and finish 11th. This is despite having a decent injury run compared to the previous year. Lacklustre efforts show on field, and a disconnect appears to show between the players and the club.

- 2019 post-season, an independent review is ordered and interviews are conducted with players and staff that are kept confidential. Outcome finds that Brett Burton and Scott Camporeale will no longer be required at the AFC.

- 2019 post-season, Hugh Greenwood, Alex Keath, Eddie Betts, Sam Jacobs, Cam Ellis-Yolmen, all request trades or are 'forced out' for various reasons.

- 2019 post-season, Cam Ellis-Yolmen reveals that the Mind Camp, 'ripped the heart out of players' and 'divided the playing group.'

- 2019 post-season, Eddie Betts is asked about these comments in an interview and does not deny them. Rather he classily says that 'he doesn't want to talk about the camp' and wants to talk about the 'great opportunity' he has to 'come home to Carlton.'

- 2019 post-season, Hugh Greenwood states that he 'didn't agree with all the decisions they (AFC) made, and that 'I could feel things bubbling' and 'it was only a matter of time before the lid came off.'

**************************

You can choose not to believe these people. You can choose to ignore the sequence of events and interpret it how you will. What you cannot do is refute actual statements or actual details revealed by actual people involved. Logic dictates that Burton and Camporeale were fired, because of their involvement. Logic also dictates that a contracted player like Betts would not uproot his family to go home to Adelaide, and then uproot them again at 32 years old, to go to a perennial cellar-dwelling club, whilst in contract.

You seem unwilling, however, to acknowledge anything that doesn't fall in line with your world view or your interpretation. When people correct you, you just dismiss it, and act superior.

I've written this long-ass essay, because it has irked me reading certain things that I know to be untrue, given my experience with both academia and in the mental health industry. You need to acknowledge that you don't know certain things, and that you might actually be wrong. To do otherwise when you have been supplied all of this information from a plethora of different posters, is both pompous and arrogant. It's also just ridiculous. You remind me of Donald Trump and his supporters, given your penchant for your espousal of 'fake news' commentary.

I won't post again, as this is an Adelaide board, but seriously, you need to listen to your fellow posters and eat a bit of humble pie. You can be wrong sometimes. Be a grown up and accept it. You're not a mental health professional, nor are you a linguistics scholar. You also weren't involved in the camp or the club (I hope), so you have no expertise in any of these fields/areas/debates. Quit acting like you're the all knowing overseer of all things. It's embarrassing and you're just making yourself look devoid of sense the more you do it.

Peace.

I very rarely post much these days but your post would have to be the most rewarding piece i have ever read in this place.

 

[John Who]

Reading through this thread as a neutral observer (and someone who has followed this saga quite closely due to my experience with mental health), I have to say, that most of what you post is more speculative and fictitious than the so called 'speculation' and 'fiction' you purport to be arguing against.

I want to preface this by saying, that I apologise for the length of this post, but you have so many outlandish statements, that I feel I have to address them given a lot of them aren't based on empirical evidence.

Point in case, let's start with the above comment to demonstrate your egotistic attitude in this thread - "the reputation doesn't have to be good or bad to start with. It's simply about breaking down a character or nullifying their characteristics, attempting to inflict emotional pain for personal gratification."

A quick google of 'character assassination will give you several dictionary definitions:


character assassination
noun

the malicious and unjustified harming of a person's good reputation.
"all too often they discredit themselves by engaging in character assassination"

********************

Character assassination definition is - the slandering of a person usually with the intention of destroying public confidence in that person.

*********************

Described as “the action of damaging the good reputation of someone; slander or libel” (this is a definition used by law)

**********************

A character assassination is a deliberate attempt to destroy someone's reputation, especially by criticizing them in an unfair and dishonest way

**********************

Given that the poster was pointing out how you didn't have a 'good' reputation to begin with, their interpretation is correct. Yours is not. You can't destroy someone's reputation if they don't have much of one to begin with.

Now that we have that out of the way, I'd like to address some of your more offensive posts. Let's start with your understanding of trauma and how 'immediate reactions should usually follow.'

Trauma is different for nearly every single different person, but one of the most common narratives in those who suffer trauma, is the 'trigger point' that sets off this trauma. For a war veteran it might be the sound of heavy rain during a storm, that reflects artillery fire during their time in the military. For a child who was abused during their formative years, it could be specific words, certain tones, actions committed by those in the present, or merely being in contact with their abuser in some form. For a rape victim it could be the way a new lover touches them in a similar fashion, or if a similar case appears in the news or through word of mouth - friends, family etc. The trigger point for Adelaide players, appeared to be in Round 10, 2018.

The narrative suggests that players, while incensed and upset with their treatment post 2017 GF at the Mind Camp, were still able to play as a 'group' post camp/2017 GF. A frank and open discussion was had early on, that discussed how players felt and how they were unhappy with some aspects of the camp. This led to Pyke assuring the players that ties would be severed with the camp, and everyone moves on. The 'trigger' then happens sometime in between Round 9 and Round 10 2018, when it's revealed that players have been told that, contrary to prior statements, that management has decided they will be attending the camp again. The proof then reveals itself over the coming 18 months that leads to a fall from 1st and Runner up Premiers, to 12th and 11th and a complete rebuild.

Your next offensive statement, is your attitude towards how players reacted and a 'nothing to see here' approach. Let's address first the fact that you only have 1 Indigenous player remaining on your list from those who attended the 2017 camp - Wayne Milera. Ben Davis was on your list at the time, but there was no indication that rookies or new draftees would have been involved in the camp.

Charlie Cameron, Eddie Betts and Cam Ellis-Yolman, have all left your club in the past 2 years. Cameron cited the Adelaide 'football bubble', as his reason to leave, which is a fair enough reason. It's Betts and Ellis-Yolman that provide the most scrutiny, however.

Betts, an Adelaide native, returns to your club in 2013, citing 'family reasons' and 'wanting to settle down', as his reasoning. He plays 4 years of remarkable footy, and earns a 3 year contract extension in 2017 - unheard of for your club to do this at his age, apparently.

2 years later, he leaves, while still contracted, back to his original club in Carlton. This is amid reports that his wife was 'incensed' at the treatment of Eddie, and other Indigenous players. Logic dictates, that only a player who is deeply unhappy, is going to leave his home town where he's settled down and started his family (like he said he wanted), in order to return to the place away from home where he began. He's also not going to a club like Richmond, but a perennial cellar dweller, in Carlton. This suggests a player that does not care where he goes, whether it be for success or not, as long as it's away from Adelaide.

It is Ellis-Yolman, and his revealing comments however, that provide the most scrutiny. Contrary to your objections and your statements about 'speculation', CEY actually said, on air, that the camp left the players divided and 'ripped the heart out' of the playing group. That is not hearsay, those are his words. For you to trivialize that, and essentially downgrade his feelings towards a situation he ACTUALLY experienced - unlike you a random big footy commentator - is insanely disrespectful and frankly a little insane, given the plethora of evidence available. This has now been followed up by comments from Greenwood that state:

"I didn't agree with all the decisions they made. After 2017 I could feel things were bubbling and it was only a matter of time before the lid came off."

That statement, while slightly less incendiary, also highlights a player that has left after being dissatisfied with the aforementioned sequence of events. This is all the while, while your club is being independently reviewed, due to the publicly revealed issues going on within the club.

So to recap, this is now the sequence of events you have laid out in front of you (not speculation, actual verifiable data):

- 2017 GF, you guys lose the Grand Final and your mental fortitude is questioned

- Post 2017 GF, Charlie Cameron is traded to Brisbane and Jake Lever to Melbourne. Bryce Gibbs is traded in from Carlton.

- Post 2017 GF, you guys go on a pre-season camp with Collective Mind, and return to pre-season training.

- 2018, you lose your first game against Essendon, and go on to win 6 of the next 8.

- 2018, Round 10, you are absolutely belted by Melbourne, and don't even look like caring for most of the match.

- 2018, Post Round 10, it emerges that a sit down was had in Round 5 with players amidst rumours emerging surrounding events at the Collective Mind camp. Ties were severed to the camp after this meeting.

- 2018, it emerges that in between Round 9 and 10, Don Pyke reinstated ties to the Collective Mind camp, and said that players would be attending again.

- 2018, Rounds 11-23, you guys go on to have a 6-6 W/L record, and 12-10 overall W/L record. You miss finals marginally, after finish equal on points with 9, 10 and 11, but lowest on percentage.

- 2018, Mitch McGovern requests a trade to Carlton, the wooden spooner. This is despite being contracted until end of 2020. He cites the 'failed pre-season camp' as 'one of the reasons for the trade.' He also cites his relationship with assistant coach David Teague at Adelaide, as another reason.

- 2019, more details emerge about the camp. Crows miss finals again and finish 11th. This is despite having a decent injury run compared to the previous year. Lacklustre efforts show on field, and a disconnect appears to show between the players and the club.

- 2019 post-season, an independent review is ordered and interviews are conducted with players and staff that are kept confidential. Outcome finds that Brett Burton and Scott Camporeale will no longer be required at the AFC.

- 2019 post-season, Hugh Greenwood, Alex Keath, Eddie Betts, Sam Jacobs, Cam Ellis-Yolmen, all request trades or are 'forced out' for various reasons.

- 2019 post-season, Cam Ellis-Yolmen reveals that the Mind Camp, 'ripped the heart out of players' and 'divided the playing group.'

- 2019 post-season, Eddie Betts is asked about these comments in an interview and does not deny them. Rather he classily says that 'he doesn't want to talk about the camp' and wants to talk about the 'great opportunity' he has to 'come home to Carlton.'

- 2019 post-season, Hugh Greenwood states that he 'didn't agree with all the decisions they (AFC) made, and that 'I could feel things bubbling' and 'it was only a matter of time before the lid came off.'

**************************

You can choose not to believe these people. You can choose to ignore the sequence of events and interpret it how you will. What you cannot do is refute actual statements or actual details revealed by actual people involved. Logic dictates that Burton and Camporeale were fired, because of their involvement. Logic also dictates that a contracted player like Betts would not uproot his family to go home to Adelaide, and then uproot them again at 32 years old, to go to a perennial cellar-dwelling club, whilst in contract.

You seem unwilling, however, to acknowledge anything that doesn't fall in line with your world view or your interpretation. When people correct you, you just dismiss it, and act superior.

I've written this long-ass essay, because it has irked me reading certain things that I know to be untrue, given my experience with both academia and in the mental health industry. You need to acknowledge that you don't know certain things, and that you might actually be wrong. To do otherwise when you have been supplied all of this information from a plethora of different posters, is both pompous and arrogant. It's also just ridiculous. You remind me of Donald Trump and his supporters, given your penchant for your espousal of 'fake news' commentary.

I won't post again, as this is an Adelaide board, but seriously, you need to listen to your fellow posters and eat a bit of humble pie. You can be wrong sometimes. Be a grown up and accept it. You're not a mental health professional, nor are you a linguistics scholar. You also weren't involved in the camp or the club (I hope), so you have no expertise in any of these fields/areas/debates. Quit acting like you're the all knowing overseer of all things. It's embarrassing and you're just making yourself look devoid of sense the more you do it.

Peace.

Quoting you again because I want to talk specifically more on PTSD. I have dealt with a lot of people from war-veterans and people of past physical or sexual abuse. It is something that is of special interest to me.

In PTSD, most people are actually often affected at the time of the traumatic event and indeed usually there is a decline in mental functioning in the immediate aftermath. Then there is a period where they may function back to normal and then a period of relapse. There is a lot of variability in the symptoms and duration of remission/relapse. PTSD isn’t just about a stress reaction at a latent period but also often causes a stress reaction in the immediate aftermath of the incident.

Unfortunately, you leave yourself open to this when you misconstrue and make overarching statements about things you're not heavily versed in.

You can't make statements like you have, then walk them back because you act like you're being 'attacked.' That's not a defence. You said those things, you have to own them. I haven't misinterpreted a thing, lol. I quoted the things you said that were most offensive, and I provided reasons why they weren't empirical statements.

Misstating things, does not give you a 'free pass' to just say whatever you want based on your own bias or opinion - true or not. That is exactly what is happening in America right now. Trump is breaking the law in every which way possible, and then cries 'poor me' when the media, public and basically everyone, calls him on his BS.

If you can provide me with sound reasoning, articulated arguments and verifiable sources that prove your point, then you're more than welcome to share. As it stands, I have an academic list a mile long that refutes your statements about trauma being immediate in the aftermath (which you did say, and which was highly offensive). The rest is you just refusing to admit you're wrong, even when people have shown you otherwise. That's narcissism.

It's not attacking you, to tell you you're wrong or to prove you wrong. It's the difference between learning and blindly believing. Your choice is what you choose to do with the information supplied to you. Here's a statement from the post I'm replying to, that demonstrates this:

"I’ve never stated I know what went on, more the angle of it couldn’t have been serious from various reasons I’ve already mentioned in prior posts. That is my opinion based on my background understanding."

The bolded highlights how you simultaneously have highlighted that you only have a 'background understanding based on your opinion', that you've 'never stated you know what went on', but you still say 'it couldn't have been serious from the various reasons I've mentioned.'

You can't state 'it couldn't be', and then say it's just 'opinion' and a 'background understanding.' That's a logical contradiction. It's either opinion, or it couldn't be, because you have verifiable data or a source that proves otherwise. This is what I'm pointing to. You need to realize that your opinion is just that, opinion. It's not proven, and most of the data proves your contentions incorrect. If you accept that, without crying poor about being attacked, without offering a 'yeah but I'm still right', then you'll earn a whole lot more respect from people around you.

As it stands, your only focus is on how you're being treated, not how you're treating delicate issues which you don't fully understand. This is why you're being called out for it.

It's not a crime to have an opinion. It is a problem to have one and call it a fact. Your freedom of speech allows you to comment on things. My freedom of speech allows me to correct you when I believe you're wrong about those things. You don't get to stifle mine, just because you're offended or you don't like criticism. That's how authoritarianism starts.

You want evidence and evidence you have:

Mod. Notice - Depressed? Anxious? Call Beyond Blue (1300 224636), Lifeline (131114), resources in OP

Beyond Blue - 1300 22 4636 Lifeline - 13 11 14 More than 3 million Australians suffer from depression and anxiety. Everyone at BigFooty strongly urge people in this situation to seek the assistance of friends, family or the dedicated staff at several organisations who are more than willing to...

www.bigfooty.com

I have been a regular contributor in the above thread on BF, and in fact I’m in the top 5 contributor on there as of current. This proves I have a genuine passion for mental illnesses and that I have some level of understanding to regularly contribute. What makes you think I’m “not heavily versed in mental health understanding?”

You seem to act like you understand the situation of this board. But in fact, you’re more like a random guy jumping into heavy invisible traffic of personal attacks. You won’t get it unless you’re on here as regularly.

Also you started out on a ridiculous personal attack in agreeing with Jaytex in the notion I “never had a reputation in the first place”. Says who? Everyone? How did I end up getting 4000 likes? How about those I helped in giving advice to the ones involved in the depression/anxiety thread on the main board?

 

[John Who]

It’s equally amazing that we have people that despite the numerous statements from players need to insert in substantiated BS like ‘the players are lying’ or ‘they have clearly signed a NDA’ so they can keep up their narrative.
Often the simplest answer is the right answer. Maybe the camp was bad but it wasn’t the boogie monster that some want to believe.
maybe our crap performance was based on a crap game plan and poor coach, player communication.

And the injuries in 2018. Don’t forget the injuries. Burton you’ve had your chance, adios!

 

[John Who]

John,

your postings strongly suggest a disingenuous agenda aligned with a less than pristine cognitive engine

Surely you must accept that you have become an unserious figure of fun as a result of these specious motivations

Sanders STFU

 

[Shadow89]

Quoting you again because I want to talk specifically more on PTSD. I have dealt with a lot of people from war-veterans and people of past physical or sexual abuse. It is something that is of special interest to me.

In PTSD, most people are actually often affected at the time of the traumatic event and indeed usually there is a decline in mental functioning in the immediate aftermath. Then there is a period where they function back to normal

You want evidence and evidence you have:

Mod. Notice - Depressed? Anxious? Call Beyond Blue (1300 224636), Lifeline (131114), resources in OP

Beyond Blue - 1300 22 4636 Lifeline - 13 11 14 More than 3 million Australians suffer from depression and anxiety. Everyone at BigFooty strongly urge people in this situation to seek the assistance of friends, family or the dedicated staff at several organisations who are more than willing to...

www.bigfooty.com

I have been a regular contributor in the above thread on BF, and in fact I’m in the top 5 contributor on there as of current. This proves I have a genuine passion for mental illnesses and that I have some level of understanding to regularly contribute. What makes you think I’m “not heavily versed in mental health understanding?”

You seem to act like you understand the situation of this board. But in fact, you’re more like a random guy jumping into heavy invisible traffic of personal attacks. You won’t get it unless you’re on here as regularly.

Also you started out on a ridiculous personal attack in agreeing with Jaytex in the notion I “never had a reputation in the first place”. Says who? Everyone? How did I end up getting 4000 likes? How about those I helped in giving advice to the ones involved in the depression/anxiety thread on the main board?

That's not what I said, re: the 'personal attack/reputation' bit. I said that you were 'wrong' to state that it 'didn't matter whether your reputation was good or bad, you can still have your character assassinated.' I advised that character assassination means that you have to have good character to start with. Was just advising how you state things as 'fact', when this is a demonstrated example of it not being the case.

I contribute regularly to the Geelong board, and the draft board; that doesn't make me an expert in either. I also have nearly double the amount of likes, as opposed to posts. That doesn't prove who I am as a poster.

Your persona on bigfooty and your dealings with those who have experienced such things, does not make you an expert either. Academics in their field are experts. Those are the people who I'm referencing to when I make my statements. Not random people I know or have dealt with, that represent only themselves, and not the actual broader population.

Just because you have an understanding and are 'passionate' about mental health, doesn't mean that this passion might not be ill-directed. Point in case, stating that trauma signs are usually shown in the aftermath. This is demonstrably false. I have academic articles that I read regularly, which prove this.

Trauma is usually repressed, because of societal norms that dictate how we should react in certain situations. It's why women who are assaulted or r*ped, see themselves as the person to blame and try to rationalize the situation to continue living as a 'normal' person. I was heavily abused as a child, yet my signs only showed when I turned 14 and hit adolescence. I have personal experience with this, but I also have academic experience too. It's insulting for you to keep acting like your 'background knowledge' is more accurate than the 'actual' knowledge I've acquired from study and from personal experience.

You've stated something that is untrue, and you don't like that you're being called out for it. If your understanding is 'that people show trauma signs in the direct aftermath', then maybe you shouldn't be giving advice on anxiety and depression threads. You clearly have an understanding based on your opinions, and you're using it to contribute to delicate conversations that require nuanced approaches. I guarantee if you said to a rape victim 'oh you'll be fine...you haven't shown any signs of trauma yet, so everything will be alright from here on out', that things would not end well.

It's really simple - admit you're wrong, and move on. This isn't your expertise (which I am stating because you clearly have a flawed understanding of trauma, not because it's an 'attack').

I'm not going to reply again after this, as you've just got your view and self perception as an 'expert of mental health' that you're attached to. There's no point continuing.

Enjoy your self-exaltation.

 

[cleanhands]

I'm lead to believe you make shit up. Including words. Like distain.

You’re entitled to believe in your shit if you wish,thanks for the spelling lesson,and I have no reason to just make shit up

 

[Bovo]

This thread certainly brings out the best in everyone

 

[cleanhands]

Imagine if you could utterly choke and embarrass yourself in front of the entire nation, literally roll over and surrender in the biggest moment of your career, and then your employer doubted your mental fortitude and sent you on a ill-conceived camp to the gold coast where a couple of your mates got offended and you could then use that as a catch all excuse for sulking and not putting the required effort into your job for the next two years.

Yeh just imagine

 

[WetCrow1991]

The camp had guys pretending to be elders, the Adelaide board has a guy pretending to be a medical doctor. Basically the same experience.