Unofficial Preview Changes & discussion v the Hawks @ MCG after our Sabbatical.

[mpal6]

The thing is we have seen this playout before re Rich.

Birchall had declined much more than Rich. And the club owed him nothing. And he was never dropped. So it just won’t happen will it? Even if Rich goes downhill further.

Dropping Jones was a sign of Melbourne’s ruthlessness in 2021 on the way to a flag. I thought maybe Robinson was our own version of that. But it seems the exception rather than the rule with Fagan / MC.

Rich or Gunston will get dropped only if there is a clear topliner in our list coming through for their exact position in the playing 22. As an example Lyons is playing reserves because we got Dunkley for that second inside mid.
Wilmot plays really well in defense but he is still learning and growing into his role and hasn't gone past Rich on all facets yet. In that circumstance, Rich will get the defense spot and Wilmot is going to be squeezed into wing.

Same logic applies to say Gunston vs Fort or Lohmann. Lohmann has to perform at 110% consistently in reserves before Fagan will even contemplate swapping him for a Gunston going at 50-60%. If Gunston spikes along the way with a 3 goal game somewhere, then he'll get even longer run. Can't blame Fagan as the prospect of entering finals with a fully firing Gunston is too much to ignore.

 

[twhowler]

Rich or Gunston will get dropped only if there is a clear topliner in our list coming through for their exact position in the playing 22. As an example Lyons is playing reserves because we got Dunkley for that second inside mid.
Wilmot plays really well in defense but he is still learning and growing into his role and hasn't gone past Rich on all facets yet. In that circumstance, Rich will get the defense spot and Wilmot is going to be squeezed into wing.

Same logic applies to say Gunston vs Fort or Lohmann. Lohmann has to perform at 110% consistently in reserves before Fagan will even contemplate swapping him for a Gunston going at 50-60%. If Gunston spikes along the way with a 3 goal game somewhere, then he'll get even longer run. Can't blame Fagan as the prospect of entering finals with a fully firing Gunston is too much to ignore.

I agree with the above re what will happen.

Not sure re the final line about what SHOULD happen. Fort has performed really well in the side. He is good back-up if Oscar is getting smashed. Why not take a look at him in the 1s given Gunston is clearly struggling.

Rich is at least more of a grey area. We seemed to struggle without him v Dogs. But then our defence was brilliant without him v pies and covered well against the fastest / hardest running team in the league.

 

[beardancer]

I can't see Madden as a consistent senior player on anything I've seen.

He's an interesting player isn't he. His physical attributes are awesome. He's taller and bigger than Starcevich...and he's 5 times faster. I remember seeing him play a VFL game and kick 4 from forward pocket and thinking here we go, but then he becomes very passive. Then I saw him a couple of weeks ago grab the ball 80 out burn off 1 guy, dodle around another and kick an awesome goal from 50 out.......then back to being passive. The guy CAN play.
Maybe as a lead up forward, as a replacement for Gunston he could show his blistering speed, I just hope we can see the best of him.

 

[Nunez]

There are two issues here that I haven’t got time to go in to.

Thanks for the reply

 

[martinson]

He's an interesting player isn't he. His physical attributes are awesome. He's taller and bigger than Starcevich...and he's 5 times faster. I remember seeing him play a VFL game and kick 4 from forward pocket and thinking here we go, but then he becomes very passive. Then I saw him a couple of weeks ago grab the ball 80 out burn off 1 guy, dodle around another and kick an awesome goal from 50 out.......then back to being passive. The guy CAN play.
Maybe as a lead up forward, as a replacement for Gunston he could show his blistering speed, I just hope we can see the best of him.

5 times faster than Starcevich ?

That's really fast.

 

[bungalow_bill]

5 times faster than Starcevich ?

That's really fast.

That would make him 10x faster then Lester and 15x faster then Gunston. Very impressive

 

[notliondown]

So the rain on the weekend muddies (see what I did there) a few things about that effort against Adelaide but for me a couple of things were obvious.

When we have Rich, Gardiner, Lester, Coleman and Gunston in the team - almost a 1/3 of the players - on the field we are just too slow, stupidly slow. And Rich, Gunston and at times Coleman offer virtually nothing defensively.

There's a sentimentallity that creeps in with coaches knowing players as human beings - something we largely don't. It must make it incredibly hard to be ruthless but I think now is the time we absolutely have to be. I fear Fages really struggles with that aspect.

Rich shouldn't be an automatic start up, and based on half a season nor should Gunston. 50% effectiveness is not enough if you are serious about success.

We have half a season to bed a team down for finals... if we are making changes it has to be soon. We need familiarity and confidence in each other and that only comes with time.

Unfortunately the more we play the older guys the more we resemble the team that fails throughout September - it's really that simple. If you keep repeating history you can't expect different results.

It's time to be brave, take calculated risks on the make up of the team and bring it home.

 

[briztoon]

Thanks for the reply

You’re welcome.

 

[briztoon]

So the rain on the weekend muddies (see what I did there) a few things about that effort against Adelaide but for me a couple of things were obvious.

When we have Rich, Gardiner, Lester, Coleman and Gunston in the team - almost a 1/3 of the players - on the field we are just too slow, stupidly slow. And Rich, Gunston and at times Coleman offer virtually nothing defensively.

There's a sentimentallity that creeps in with coaches knowing players as human beings - something we largely don't. It must make it incredibly hard to be ruthless but I think now is the time we absolutely have to be. I fear Fages really struggles with that aspect.

Rich shouldn't be an automatic start up, and based on half a season nor should Gunston. 50% effectiveness is not enough if you are serious about success.

We have half a season to bed a team down for finals... if we are making changes it has to be soon. We need familiarity and confidence in each other and that only comes with time.

Unfortunately the more we play the older guys the more we resemble the team that fails throughout September - it's really that simple. If you keep repeating history you can't expect different results.

It's time to be brave, take calculated risks on the make up of the team and bring it home.

Coleman is not slow, but he’s started picking and choosing when he goes, especially on the defensive side of his game.

Have seen a few times now, where he’s sized up an opponent, hesitated and either not gone, or go half heartedly.

Two years ago he would have put his head down and gone every time.

 

[On the quiet]

Rich deserves the chance to play some consistent footy which he hasn't had this year yet

Yes he arguably does, and I just don't see him being dropped, but;

I also remember 'Mighty Lions' posting a few times that Rich had performed strongly preseason with no set backs and was ready for a big year

Rich is picked firstly as a defender so needs to be more accountable in that area. IMO Kiddy, McKenna and Wilmot can offer us kicking options. They also offer some run and dash, and this is controversial but I would have Payne pressing forward and Harris staying back, and Payne is likely to kick a 55m goal. In a nutshell Rich has been a loyal player (but also suspect paid reasonably well over the years) but his lack of pace on a quick turnover will likely hurt us in a big game.

 

[SizeMatters]

Yes he arguably does, and I just don't see him being dropped, but;

I also remember 'Mighty Lions' posting a few times that Rich had performed strongly preseason with no set backs and was ready for a big year

Rich is picked firstly as a defender so needs to be more accountable in that area. IMO Kiddy, McKenna and Wilmot can offer us kicking options. They also offer some run and dash, and this is controversial but I would have Payne pressing forward and Harris staying back, and Payne is likely to kick a 55m goal. In a nutshell Rich has been a loyal player (but also suspect paid reasonably well over the years) but his lack of pace on a quick turnover will likely hurt us in a big game.

Rich is playing like a poor man's Witherden.



I'm scared. So scared this will happen come finals.

Should not be best 22 for the rest of the season. He just doesn't offer more than Wilmot or McKenna down back. The "get him a medal" brigade need come back to reality. It's a real struggle to watch him barely make a 20m run these days. As loyal and well paid Rich has been I think it's time the team comes first. Put him out the back paddock Fagan. plz

 

[Nathan Barley]

Rich is playing like a poor man's Witherden.



I'm scared. So scared this will happen come finals.

Should not be best 22 for the rest of the season. He just doesn't offer more than Wilmot or McKenna down back. The "get him a medal" brigade need come back to reality. It's a real struggle to watch him barely make a 20m run these days. As loyal and well paid Rich has been I think it's time the team comes first. Put him out the back paddock Fagan. plz

So bring in Sharp for Rich and play him on the wing with Wilmot down back?

 

[SizeMatters]

So bring in Sharp for Rich and play him on the wing with Wilmot down back?

Nah.

 

[JasRulz63]

My biggest concern with dropping Rich (even with his drop off in his kicking) is that it would leave Coleman as the only player off half back that you would consider a consistently above average kick off half back. I think it's something that the coaching staff are aware of too given the trials of Zorko and Rayner off half back in recent years. Coleman isn't consistent enough yet, nor does he get enough of the ball to be the sole distributor off half back.

 

[beardancer]

That would make him 10x faster then Lester and 15x faster then Gunston. Very impressive

I thought I was on the Lions site, not the general football Pedants forum

 

[briztoon]

I thought I was on the Lions site, not the general football Pedants forum

Otherwise known as BigFooty.

 

[Nathan Barley]

My biggest concern with dropping Rich (even with his drop off in his kicking) is that it would leave Coleman as the only player off half back that you would consider a consistently above average kick off half back. I think it's something that the coaching staff are aware of too given the trials of Zorko and Rayner off half back in recent years. Coleman isn't consistent enough yet, nor does he get enough of the ball to be the sole distributor off half back.

And if Kiddy kicks in there's one less good kick up the field

 

[Nathan Barley]

On the roar deal they asked who in the reserves could make the greatest impact if they became a regular senior player. The ones I'd like to see take the next step are Ah Chee and Tunstill as probably the 2 most skilled reserves players.

Michael too could possible be a good long term Rich replacement

 

[p4p1]

My biggest concern with dropping Rich (even with his drop off in his kicking) is that it would leave Coleman as the only player off half back that you would consider a consistently above average kick off half back. I think it's something that the coaching staff are aware of too given the trials of Zorko and Rayner off half back in recent years. Coleman isn't consistent enough yet, nor does he get enough of the ball to be the sole distributor off half back.

Rich gets so much of the footy because we set up to give him the ball. Sitting at the back of a stoppage waiting to get given the ball is probably (and no disrespect) the easiest job in footy and definitely pads the stat. The way clearances are counted IMO is a big flaw in the system, the getting the ball to Rich (or the kicker) is not the one who gets the clearance, its the guy who gets the time and space to clear it out of the area. Richy got 5 clearances against Adelaide but he didn't have to work particularly hard to get them either. Certainly not as hard as the guys that got the ball to him.

 

[Nathan Barley]

Rich gets so much of the footy because we set up to give him the ball. Sitting at the back of a stoppage waiting to get given the ball is probably (and no disrespect) the easiest job in footy and definitely pads the stat. The way clearances are counted IMO is a big flaw in the system, the getting the ball to Rich (or the kicker) is not the one who gets the clearance, its the guy who gets the time and space to clear it out of the area. Richy got 5 clearances against Adelaide but he didn't have to work particularly hard to get them either. Certainly not as hard as the guys that got the ball to him.

 

[p4p1]

On the roar deal they asked who in the reserves could make the greatest impact if they became a regular senior player. The ones I'd like to see take the next step are Ah Chee and Tunstill as probably the 2 most skilled reserves players.

Michael too could possible be a good long term Rich replacement

Ah Chee is in no mans land at the moment. I think he is good enough to be a solid role player in the best 22 but exactly where that should be, I'm not sure. I do think if he took Rich's spot he would be more accountable defensively but he couldn't take the attacking role either.
It feels like our coaching team come up with our game plan and strategy and set the players/team around that rather than picking your best 22 or so players and working a game plan to get your best 22 on the park as often as possible.

 

[p4p1]

View attachment 1701150

Yes and the guy giving him the ball or getting the ball to him, while still in congestion doesn't seem to get the stat. Effective is what makes it a grey area when calculating. Personally I would credit the guy who wins the ball and dishes out to a team mate, but that doesn't clear the area so I understand why they aren't credited with the clearance as well.
I would love to see a 'first disposal' stat or something that is simply for the first disposal after the ruckmen have competed.

 

[beardancer]

On the roar deal they asked who in the reserves could make the greatest impact if they became a regular senior player. The ones I'd like to see take the next step are Ah Chee and Tunstill as probably the 2 most skilled reserves players.

Michael too could possible be a good long term Rich replacement

Michael looks pretty good to me, though he doesn't have the kick that Richy has(had?) .

 

[Nathan Barley]

Yes and the guy giving him the ball or getting the ball to him, while still in congestion doesn't seem to get the stat. Effective is what makes it a grey area when calculating. Personally I would credit the guy who wins the ball and dishes out to a team mate, but that doesn't clear the area so I understand why they aren't credited with the clearance as well.
I would love to see a 'first disposal' stat or something that is simply for the first disposal after the ruckmen have competed.

If you're handballing to a teammate that would be an effective disposal

 

[Nathan Barley]

Just can't cop all these posters going beardancer on Rich based on a David King video and a couple of poor kicks in a very high pressure game