Chris Judd - Greatest player of the 21st Century (so far)

[HyperAgressiveDonk]

It's called Luke Hodge mate. They copped it for years for selecting him over Judd. Probably the first of the big draft **** ups. They've never recovered it seems, as it's a common vein with most Hawk fans to have this intense opposition to the man. Even on BF it's rare in its consistency across all boards.

Luke Hodge is a 3 x All Australian, 2 x Best & Fairest, Norm smith winner, premiership winning Hawthorn legend, who has 3 seasons where he has been ranked a Top 5 player in the game. How is that a **** up?

Fair enough he isn't as decorated as Judd, but Hawthorn people wouldn't swap him for anyone. How many 3 x AA, 2 x B&F, Norm Smith medalist are playing?

If two of your number 1 picks in Gibbs & Kreuzer even have half the accolades Hodge has by the time their careers are over, they would have had very good careers.

He is elite and a one club player. Heart & soul player. Your point is null and void.

 

[doppleganger]

^ How Swan was better than Pendlebury has me beat...

This is the perfect example of how the media influences people.

Swan had a blistering start to the season, but then a little flat spot mid season due to injury, he then came back and was in career best form...yet the mantra was Swan was down on last year due to the couple of quiet weeks.

Swan finished above Pendles in coaches votes, in brownlow votes and by the end of the season he had overtaken Penldes in most media voting awards too.

Pendles is a media darling, Swan is still an ugly duckling it seems!

 

[ashs35]

Chris Judd - Most Overrated player of the 21st Century (so far)

 

[tazhawk]

It's called Luke Hodge mate. They copped it for years for selecting him over Judd. Probably the first of the big draft **** ups. They've never recovered it seems, as it's a common vein with most Hawk fans to have this intense opposition to the man. Even on BF it's rare in its consistency across all boards.

Luke Hodge is a 3 x All Australian, 2 x Best & Fairest, Norm smith winner, premiership winning Hawthorn legend, who has 3 seasons where he has been ranked a Top 5 player in the game. How is that a **** up?

Fair enough he isn't as decorated as Judd, but Hawthorn people wouldn't swap him for anyone. How many 3 x AA, 2 x B&F, Norm Smith medalist are playing?

If two of your number 1 picks in Gibbs & Kreuzer even have half the accolades Hodge has by the time their careers are over, they would have had very good careers.

He is elite and a one club player. Heart & soul player. Your point is null and void.

Not to mention that Hodge is a big game player.

Judd as a Carlton player has played one decent quarter in 3 Finals.

His two crappy Finals performances this year were bordering on pathetic.

All this is lost on the Carlton "Juddles is the best brigade"

Once again Monkey Boy ignores the fact lots of non Hawk supporters also say he is massively overated.

 

[tazhawk]

Chris Judd - Most Overrated player of the 21st Century (so far)

Bingo.

Oh look, another non Hawk supporter giving us his opinion.

Go get him Monkey Boy.

 

[royals1922]

It's called Luke Hodge mate. They copped it for years for selecting him over Judd. Probably the first of the big draft **** ups. They've never recovered it seems, as it's a common vein with most Hawk fans to have this intense opposition to the man. Even on BF it's rare in its consistency across all boards.

I would have thought that the most appropriate people to hate may be Freo supporters.

Weren't they the ones to trade out of that draft to get, from memory, Croad and then, again from memory drafted Polak.

I might very well have mistaken my years here though.

That said, the only difference between Judd and Hodge is the Brownlows, which depending on how you rate them, may mean a lot, may mean a little.

From what I can gather the debate is whether C Judd is the greatest player of the 21th century, so far. Most, including me, would say he is a very, very good player and would be right up there but I would also say Hodge hasn't had a bad career.

But hate is a big call.

 

[Monkey King]

Luke Hodge is a 3 x All Australian, 2 x Best & Fairest, Norm smith winner, premiership winning Hawthorn legend, who has 3 seasons where he has been ranked a Top 5 player in the game. How is that a **** up?

Because you overlooked arguably the player of his generation in selecting Hodge. As time has gone by, Hodge, as less so, Luke Ball, have lifted their comparative games to a more respectable level; but early doors, you blokes copped it as badly as Tigers supporters for passing him up.

The Hawthorn/Judd-hate connection is too obvious to ignore and over time has been directly linked to Hodge by some. It doesn't require you being cognisant of it for it to be a factor.

 

[HyperAgressiveDonk]

That said, the only difference between Judd and Hodge is the Brownlows, which depending on how you rate them, may mean a lot, may mean a little.

From what I can gather the debate is whether C Judd is the greatest player of the 21th century, so far. Most, including me, would say he is a very, very good player and would be right up there but I would also say Hodge hasn't had a bad career.

Yeah Hodge is going to go down as a great of the HFC. Everyone at Hawthorn is stoked with him, as Carlton/WCE are/were with Judd.

It's much of a muchness really. Any number 1 pick who has 3 AAs, 2 BFs, a Norm Smith medal and a premiership by 27 is a massive success.

Like I said to Monkey King, if 2 of their number 1 picks in Gibbs and Kreuzer, can get near what Hodge has done, Carlton will be stoked.

 

[Monkey King]

I would have thought that the most appropriate people to hate may be Freo supporters.

Weren't they the ones to trade out of that draft to get, from memory, Croad and then, again from memory drafted Polak.

Nah. If anything the Hawks would be thanking Freo for the No.1 pick and eventually having Croad return for a flag anyway. The Hawks pick was done and dusted by the time Polak was selected. Freo might have reason to hate the Hawks for out dealing them, they may hate themselves for passing the No.1 pick to the Hawks; but I don't get the Hawk to Freo line.

I've seen a similar thing with Richmond fans feelings towards Buddy. When you get a player shoved down your throat for years as your **** up, I guess it has a lasting impact. Particularly I guess when the player being talked down is a club favourite, like in Hodge's case. I don't get it myself; Selwood is this to Gibbs, but I don't dislike Selwood or talk him down needlessly.

That said, the only difference between Judd and Hodge is the Brownlows

Really? I reckon you're a couple of MVP's, several All Australian's and B&F's short there. With both eyes open, Judd has clearly had the better career.

I should state now that I never hung shit on the Hawks for choosing Hodge over Judd. I like Hodge and wouldn't mind him at the Blues. The only negative I have to say about him is that he doesn't seem very professional in keeping his body in good shape. Reminds me a bit of Nick Stevens in this regard.

 

[Monkey King]

Not to mention that Hodge is a big game player.

Judd as a Carlton player has played one decent quarter in 3 Finals.

His two crappy Finals performances this year were bordering on pathetic.

All this is lost on the Carlton "Juddles is the best brigade"

Once again Monkey Boy ignores the fact lots of non Hawk supporters also say he is massively overated.

Facts? Judd was Carlton's best player in both finals prior to this year. BOG in the Sydney game and arguably BOG or 2nd BOG behind Black in the Brisbane game. He is arguably the best finals player in the comp today.

From Quinz -

04 EF v Sydney- Our best player with 19 touches, 2 goals and 9 tackles

05 QF v Sydney- BOG clearly with 30 touches
05 PF v Adelaide- Probably our third best behind Kerr and Selwood
05 GF v Sydney- BOG, Norm Smith in a losing side

06 QF v Sydney- BOG by a mile with 34 touches and 2 goals
06 SF v Bulldogs- 2nd or 3rd best on ground, a lot of good players
06 PF v Adelaide- BOG or possibly just behind Cousins
06 GF v Sydney- Third best after Embley and Cox

07 QF v Port- Kicked two goals but really struggled with the groin

09 EF v Brisbane- BOG or second behind Black.

10 EF v Sydney BOG (my addition)


I note that in calling one a big game player and the other not, you've garnered extraordinary focus on Judd's finals this year while completely ignoring Hodge's last year. Any wonder you wind up with wildly unbalanced opinions that can't be taken seriously lol

 

[HyperAgressiveDonk]

Nah. If anything the Hawks would be thanking Freo for the No.1 pick and eventually having Croad return for a flag anyway. The Hawks pick was done and dusted by the time Polak was selected. Freo might have reason to hate the Hawks for out dealing them, they may hate themselves for passing the No.1 pick to the Hawks; but I don't get the Hawk to Freo line.

I've seen a similar thing with Richmond fans feelings towards Buddy. When you get a player shoved down your throat for years as your **** up, I guess it has a lasting impact. Particularly I guess when the player being talked down is a club favourite, like in Hodge's case.

Nobody but you thinks a 3xAA, 2xB&F, Norm Smith winner by 27 is a **** up. Like I said if Gibbs or Kreuzer ( both no.1 picks also ) end up being half the player Hodge is, Carlton have done well. Hodge is a gun. How many 3 x AAs have you got in your side besides Judd? That's right zero. What about even 2 xAAs?

It's nothing like the Buddy - Tambling thing because we got an elite player in Hodge. Richmond got a pleb. Apples & Oranges.

You make a lot of emotional and null and void points.

Back on topic......

 

[Peck]

So what players would people take in there team before Judd INCLUDING his west coast eagles form?

I would possibly take Chad Cornes, Franklin, Sandilands, and MAYBE Reiwoldt ahead of him, but that's it. Ablett I would take right after him. Hodge wouldn't be top 30.

 

[royals1922]

This debate's got a similarity to a debate between who's better - Miss World or Miss Universe - both are damn good and both would be welcome anywhere. To continue the analogy Fremantle ended up with the winner of the Miss Boilermaker competition.

That said if you were to ask which defender would fit the title of the post, Scarlett would be high up there.

 

[HyperAgressiveDonk]

This debate's got a similarity to a debate between who's better - Miss World or Miss Universe - both are damn good and both would be welcome anywhere. To continue the analogy Fremantle ended up with the winner of the Miss Boilermaker competition.

Hehe

 

[BlueTouchPaper]

This is the perfect example of how the media influences people.

Hah! What? I honestly don't know what that's referring to... What a pissweak argument...

Swan's start to the year was no better than Pendlebury's, the latter probably held consistently better form through to say round 12 or 15.

BigFooty has the memory of a goldfish - late season form seems to count for everything.

I don't know the results of any of the media awards - that's a little contradictory to your argument though.

Swan would be behind Pendlebury, Ablett, Mitchell, (Murphy) and maybe one or two others, for mine.

 

[Monkey King]

Nobody but you thinks a 3xAA, 2xB&F, Norm Smith winner by 27 is a **** up.

I think you've badly misunderstood what I'm saying here Donk, so don't get upset, hold that poker face. Hodge was generally considered a **** up of a first pick comparative to what else was on offer (Judd) for a bloody long time. Do you disagree? Did you follow footy from 2002-04 for example?

Like I said if Gibbs or Kreuzer ( both no.1 picks also ) end up being half the player Hodge is, Carlton have done well. Hodge is a gun. How many 3 x AAs have you got in your side besides Judd? That's right zero. What about even 2 xAAs?

Ask me this question in 3 years time, because all you're really saying here is that Carlton have a young list. And I'll be honest, Gibbs is already more than half the player Hodge is, but if he and Kreuzer were only going to amount to half a Hodge, I'd be gutted. Even a whole Hodge would a disappointment tbh, but Gibbs is tracking better than Hodge was at 22yo consistency wise, just needs an AA type year under his belt.

Very interesting you claim emotion, when to me it's very clear yours has been a strickly emotional response related only to present circumstance. Who knows, maybe you're a recent follower of football, but for a good part of the 2000's Hodge was regarded a mistake as a selection and Hawk fans were indeed ribbed for it. Not much emotional investment to be had on my part, but I did note at the time it was the first major ribbing over draft selection I'd witnessed and it did have its effect on my Hawk mates.

This started to change a hell of a lot around 2008, prior to which, Hodge had just one All Australian and one B&F, while Judd was roundly regarded as the best player in the comp and spoken of as one of the best ever. Sorry if these very real facts annoy you, but the link between Hawk fans and Judd-hate with this history is too conspicuous to be ignored.

 

[peejay]

This debate's got a similarity to a debate between who's better - Miss World or Miss Universe - both are damn good and both would be welcome anywhere. To continue the analogy Fremantle ended up with the winner of the Miss Boilermaker competition.

That said if you were to ask which defender would fit the title of the post, Scarlett would be high up there.

Definetly Ms Universe - over the years they have proven far more ****tier.

 

[Summer Nights]

This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Is Tom Rockliff a better footballer than Judd was at his peak because he averages 27 touches a game?

Did Geelong over possess the ball given Collingwood average 30-40 touches less than the Cats did under Bomber Thompson?

Your argument makes no sense. You can only compare a player against the standard at the time and 22 possessions put you in the upper echelon back in 2004. These days, it'd be lucky to have you in the top 50 for possessions average.

To you it makes no sense. Your argument is the equivalent of saying the fastest sprinter of 50 years ago is the equivalent of the fastest sprinter today because they're both the best of their eras, when clearly there's a difference. Raw stats is more meaningful between Ablett and Judd. Ablett was the best player in the league in 07 and didn't win a Brownlow. Judd wasn't even the best player in the league in 04 (Treadrea was), yet you talk about Brownlow votes as some kind of indicator of the better player. Most intelligent football people realise that Brownlow votes don't mean much. Shows where your level of football knowledge is at.

 

[Bombers 2003]

So Lex Luthor
do you truly believe judd is the greatest player of the 21st century?
what about Ablett Jnr?

 

[Red Bear]

Chris Judd (West Coast) > Gary Ablett > Chris Judd (Carlton)

 

[unstable punt]

If you go by my criteria of any player drafted on or after the year 2000, so players like Scarlett, Pav, Buckley, Hird Voss etc are ineligible.

Judd's record stands by itself, and this year first player i believe to poll more then 20 brownlow votes in 5 seasons.

For sheer consistency the only player that comes to Judd for mantle of best 21st century player is Gary Ablett Jnr, but his first season didn't set the world on fire.

Yes I know this century is only 11 years old, but clearly Judd will be remembered as this century's first AFL immortal, will be named as a legend in the AFL Hall of Fame when he retires, and rightfully so.

I think Ablett is his equal

 

[blues4flag]

To you it makes no sense. Your argument is the equivalent of saying the fastest sprinter of 50 years ago is the equivalent of the fastest sprinter today because they're both the best of their eras, when clearly there's a difference. Raw stats is more meaningful between Ablett and Judd. Ablett was the best player in the league in 07 and didn't win a Brownlow. Judd wasn't even the best player in the league in 04 (Treadrea was), yet you talk about Brownlow votes as some kind of indicator of the better player. Most intelligent football people realise that Brownlow votes don't mean much. Shows where your level of football knowledge is at.

Spare me the empty rhetoric and argue fact. Comparing 2004 and 2007 to sprinters 50 years apart is downright farcical.

Just because one era favours higher stats over another does not make that era a better standard of football. You could argue that it's less efficient, as the objective of the game is score goals, not hold onto the ball, but of course that fails to take into account the importance of defence.

Or the changing of rules, such as play on after 5-8 seconds after a mark/free kick, which undoubtedly has led to higher possession numbers.

Was 1990 a higher standard of football than 2004 because of the significantly higher disposal numbers? Of course not. Comparing disposal numbers of 2004 directly to those of today is akin to comparing the price of a house 20 years ago to that of today.

 

[blues4flag]

So Lex Luthor
do you truly believe judd is the greatest player of the 21st century?
what about Ablett Jnr?

It depends what criteria you use to define best player. Do we rank their individual seasons? If so, Ablett would have 3 of the top 5, but Judd 9 of the top 15.

Do we rate individual games? Both have had their fair share of brilliant games and while Ablett might have more in the top 50, Judd would have more 'elite' games.

Do we rate them at their absolute best? It's arguable whether Judd's best is better than Ablett's but there's no doubt that Ablett's been at his best for far longer.

Judd might no longer be at his best, but his current output is enough to put him in the top 2 or 3 midfielders in the competition, and has been for the best part of 8 years. Ablett's been numero uno for 5.

 

[wce4premiership]

No he shouldn't have. Mitchell should have won it followed by Dal Santo or Swan.

I'd say murphy had the best year. Then pendles, then mitchell/judd

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

Why stop at 30+?

20+: Judd 150, Ablett 124.

B&Fs: Judd 5, Ablett 3
AAs: Judd 6, Ablett 5

10+ votes in Brownlow: Judd 9, Ablett 5
15+ votes in Brownlow: Judd 8, Ablett 5
20+ votes in Brownlow: Judd 5, Ablett 5

MVPs?

You'd be wrong. Both drafted in the same year. Ablett was in and out of the side in 2002 while Judd was the game's best first year player.

WGAF?

It's arguable who had the best individual season. Judd's 2006 was as good as anything that Ablett has produced.

erm statistically Ablett has had 4 better seasons than Judd's peak...