Cloke = Trade Bait.

[shawthing09]

Unfortunately for all involved it seems Travis is at his best when roaming up like in a Richoesque manner. The down fall is his field kicking is not good enough and means he too often chooses the kick long and hope option rather then trying to pin point a short option. Without a big goal square gorilla and let's face it we don't have one of those coming up and they isn't really one in football anymore that is not much good to us.

His goal kicking whilst still unreliable is greatly improved and while he is never going to be a dead eye dick for goal his 60% success rate when kicking for goal would I dare say be better then his kick to foward transition rate which is probably about the same. The main difference is if his getting less of the ball creating a target and shooting then his turnovers aren't as likely to result directly in opposition goals.

Is there a case for turning him into a backmen? Maybe but I don't think he has the closing speed required. Even so who do we use to replace him as a key foward? Rusling from the goal square with JA playing more of a roaming role? Dawes into Cloke's role? His hardly shown enough at either level to suggest his ready for that responsiblity possibly Nathan Brown foward in the hope that Cloke can take his role?

Or do we just hope that one day he will find a role that he can have impact and reward for effort because at the moment he really doesn't hurt enough either on the scoreboard or with his possesions.

 

[kevind]

I read all the posts. The tenor of your argument revolves around you being a superior Collingwood supporter, hard and true in your view while most of the rest of us are weak delusional followers, the cancer that has bouught this great club down.

You strike me as being v much like an ensconced political opposition. You are able to knock all and sundry and hypothesise about how you would turn things around in an instant safe in the knowledge that there is no chance you will ever get the chance to put theory into action

Why not stick to arguing with opioion supported with some facts rather than all the hyperbole

When are you guys EVER going to understand that this forum is merely one to express opinion, nothing more.

I do not wish to put my theory into practice as I have zero importance with regards the politics at Collingwood. Nor do I wish to increase that zero importance.

Your opinion is no better and no worse than mine.

What does get up my nose is that whenever people like myself air any dissenting views they are personally attacked both in the forum and with gutless PMs. And it is purely personal attack, never with facts and arguements. A good example is your post. It is a personal attack with heaps of assumptions and no facts.

As for arguing with facts, here are few. We have won 1 premiership in 50 years(are you happy with that? I'm not). We put in another in a long line of poor finals appearance on Sunday(are you happy with that? I'm not). Maybe you are happy with this type of FACTUAL mediocrity. I am not. So lets just say there is a personality difference on that one in that I perhaps have higher expectations than you do. That does not make me any better or any worse than you, just different.

As for Travis Cloke. If you had of actually read and understood my posts, I acknowledged that Cloke plays the 'leading up the wings role' that MM requires. My OPINION on that is that he is not a KF as he does not play as a KF by winning the ball in the hot spots and converting. IMO, that's what gun KFs do, so I don't believe we can call him a 'gun'. But if you're happy with his performances this year, then fine. I'm not.

To conclude, this forum is merely a chance to read opinions, nothing more. We are not trying to change the world. Or even feeling deluded that we are changing the world.

 

[Didak2Dawes]

Put him down back.

 

[popathon]

Put him down back.

Too slow and not agile enough.

 

[Gone Critical]

When are you guys EVER going to understand that this forum is merely one to express opinion, nothing more.

I do not wish to put my theory into practice as I have zero importance with regards the politics at Collingwood. Nor do I wish to increase that zero importance.

Your opinion is no better and no worse than mine.

What does get up my nose is that whenever people like myself air any dissenting views they are personally attacked both in the forum and with gutless PMs. And it is purely personal attack, never with facts and arguements. A good example is your post. It is a personal attack with heaps of assumptions and no facts.

As for arguing with facts, here are few. We have won 1 premiership in 50 years(are you happy with that? I'm not). We put in another in a long line of poor finals appearance on Sunday(are you happy with that? I'm not). Maybe you are happy with this type of FACTUAL mediocrity. I am not. So lets just say there is a personality difference on that one in that I perhaps have higher expectations than you do. That does not make me any better or any worse than you, just different.

As for Travis Cloke. If you had of actually read and understood my posts, I acknowledged that Cloke plays the 'leading up the wings role' that MM requires. My OPINION on that is that he is not a KF as he does not play as a KF by winning the ball in the hot spots and converting. IMO, that's what gun KFs do, so I don't believe we can call him a 'gun'. But if you're happy with his performances this year, then fine. I'm not.

To conclude, this forum is merely a chance to read opinions, nothing more. We are not trying to change the world. Or even feeling deluded that we are changing the world.

I dont mind a good argument at any time, not trying to get personal.

I think we are in agreement that this is a forum for opinion and people post here to do just that, post their opinion.

I just see you and Le Stat and a few others as claiming the high moral ground and condemning the views of all us "delusional" supporters. Your description of yourself as the one who would be pushing up daisies if we all went to war while the "delusional" would be "in the clubhouse with their endless excuses". The "delusional" are cancer on the club.

In one breath you are saying your opinion has zero impact on the fortunes of the club but in the next you are saying it is the opinion of the "delusional" that contributes to Collingwoods mediocrity. You cant have it both ways

Even in the above post you place yourself on the high ground with claims that your expectations are probably higher than mine. What basis would you have for believing that? That I believe Cloke is a better player than you do. That is called a difference of opinion.

These statments you make are personal. I am desperate for Collingwood to win a flag, I hate losing finals. I spend far too much of my week worrying about the fortunes of my footy club. I get far too much joy from watching Carlton fall on their sword and I am glad I do

In all these things I am sure we are v similar. We are on the same side. I am still delusional enough to hope N Maxwell lifts a cup above his head in 3 weeks time, not expecting it but it would be sweet.

I like different opinions especially controversial ones like yours just object to you characterising yourself apart form the "delusional" masses

 

[James Bond 008]

His papers are stamped not going anywhere

 

[1970]

pure BS

Were you there? What did he say? There is no reason I can think of that would explain why the fellow I spoke to would make that up. I just found it interesting but you do seem very sure of yourself.

 

[Optimax]

Were you there? What did he say? There is no reason I can think of that would explain why the fellow I spoke to would make that up. I just found it interesting but you do seem very sure of yourself.

I wasnt there

But yes i am VERY SURE of myself here

 

[Teak_Pies]

Clokey played well yesterday at 1 stage he had 9 marks in a quarter and a half

 

[Nardz]

Clokey played well yesterday at 1 stage he had 9 marks in a quarter and a half

you're missing the whole point.

he is a forward.

he had 3 shots on goal.

he kicked 0 goals.
he also kicked 0.2 (not sure how many other shots he had that didnt register) against the dogs.
1.2 against sydney
2.3 against richmond.

in 4 games he's kicked 3 goals 9 behinds + some shots that didnt score.

that is simply not good enough. when he gets the ball in forward 50 and has a shot, it ends up a goal less than 25% of the time.

he's been held goalless 8 times now this season.

in 1 in 3 games he DOES NOT SCORE A GOAL.

yet in most games he gets his chances..

 

[Optimax]

only 1 of his 3 shots should have been a certainty though nardz.

 

[smiddaz123]

I actually started laughing when Cloke went to line up for goal from the boundary line 50+ out. If it went through, it was nothing short of dumb luck. He should've put that to the top of the square.

 

[Brent24]

Play Dawes, allow Cloke to play the lead up forward role. Everytime Dawes is played, we look better up forward, IMO.

 

[kevind]

I dont mind a good argument at any time, not trying to get personal.

I think we are in agreement that this is a forum for opinion and people post here to do just that, post their opinion.

I just see you and Le Stat and a few others as claiming the high moral ground and condemning the views of all us "delusional" supporters. Your description of yourself as the one who would be pushing up daisies if we all went to war while the "delusional" would be "in the clubhouse with their endless excuses". The "delusional" are cancer on the club.

In one breath you are saying your opinion has zero impact on the fortunes of the club but in the next you are saying it is the opinion of the "delusional" that contributes to Collingwoods mediocrity. You cant have it both ways

Even in the above post you place yourself on the high ground with claims that your expectations are probably higher than mine. What basis would you have for believing that? That I believe Cloke is a better player than you do. That is called a difference of opinion.

If you go back chronologically through this thread you will see that the 'going to war' statement was made in response to a personal attack that neither Lestat or myself started. You can argue that we should not have responded to the bait, but as I stated, we did not start it.

Secondly, what we are expressing is opinion, not trying to take the high ground. It is opinion that is no better or no worse than yours.

Of course my opinion has zero impact on the fortunes of the club, that is a given that should need no explanation. Whereas several coaches over the years have stated that it is hard to keep the players away from a lot of the hype of the fans telling them how good they are. That has also filtered through to officials. Tom Hafey stated that at 3/4 time in the drawn 1977 GF, he was horrified about all the officials telling the players how good they were and that they had the game won etc. So I am not having it both ways, they are the facts.

As for 'higher expectations', you seem content with how things are at the club. Right or wrong???? I will only be content when we win a premiership. It is only then I will agree with posters like yourself that the MM/EM power base has been successful. Right now, IMO, they are riding on a 'fail' until they deliver the 'holy grail'. Call it what you like, but I think I have higher performance expectations of EM/MM than you do.

 

[Soul_Pie]

I actually started laughing when Cloke went to line up for goal from the boundary line 50+ out. If it went through, it was nothing short of dumb luck. He should've put that to the top of the square.

I laughed at that too, not just for the reason you stated but also because he threw the grass up before he kicked the ball.

 

[Nardz]

only 1 of his 3 shots should have been a certainty though nardz.

the fact that we're only disappointed when he misses certainty's says alot. we've lowered our expecations of him. just how low will they get?

and why did he even bother having a shot from 45m out on the boundary? he obviously doesnt know his limitations.

 

[Optimax]

the fact that we're only disappointed when he misses certainty's says alot. we've lowered our expecations of him. just how low will they get?

and why did he even bother having a shot from 45m out on the boundary? he obviously doesnt know his limitations.

40 50 meters out on teh boundary line are balrey kicked by anyone let alone trav cloke

 

[Lestat]

40 50 meters out on teh boundary line are balrey kicked by anyone let alone trav cloke

And 15-20 metres out, slight angle is barely missed by anyone, except Trav Cloke of course, who misses from this distance regularly.

 

[Nardz]

40 50 meters out on teh boundary line are balrey kicked by anyone let alone trav cloke

so why take a shot?
i would have much rathered he kicked it to the hot spot.

 

[shawthing09]

And 15-20 metres out, slight angle is barely missed by anyone, except Trav Cloke of course, who misses from this distance regularly.

You lie over recent years his kicking hasn't been that bad. Not acceptable but to say he misses from that distance regularly is an overstatement. You hurt your arguement with such hyperbole.

 

[Optimax]

You lie over recent years his kicking hasn't been that bad. Not acceptable but to say he misses from that distance regularly is an overstatement. You hurt your arguement with such hyperbole.

of late his kicking has been that bad

But 08 and the last half of 07 he wasnt horrid, poor yes but not this level of bad

 

[Nardz]

You lie over recent years his kicking hasn't been that bad. Not acceptable but to say he misses from that distance regularly is an overstatement. You hurt your arguement with such hyperbole.

no he really does miss those easy kicks reguarly. he's missed at least 10 goals this year from within 30m.

 

[lethalburns]

Calm down.

Point 1 - We will never trade T.Cloke. Not under Malthouse, and not under Buckley.

Point 2 - He is not too slow to play CHB. If you honestly believe this please explain to me how he burns his opponent on the lead so often?

Point 3 - He will not be dropped because you don't fix goal kicking issues in the reserves. Furthermore he is a good player that is important to our team. At most his position will be re-jigged in 2010.

 

[smiddaz123]

Point 3 - He will not be dropped because you don't fix goal kicking issues in the reserves.

If he is dropped, and told he'll be selected again when he fixes it to a point where it is satisfactory, maybe that will fix it.

 

[G.O.B]

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