Cloke = Trade Bait.

[Old Spice]

I think you overstate the case with Cloke. If Cloke converted, we'd be singing his praises because the rest is good. My proposed remedy is dropping players who don't perform when there's a commensuarable player who can fill that role and has earned a spot thru the VFL.

I think Medhurst will return to good form next year when he puts his injury niggles to bed, but it has to be good form that gets him a guernsey, not past performance and hope.

You have to make a judgment about off games and mitigating circumstances - eg. poor delivery - but it shouldn't run longer than 3 games.

 

[Nardz]

If Cloke converted, we'd be singing his praises because the rest is good.

massive IF there. if cloke converted then this thread wouldn't be here.. and we probably would have had an extra win or 2 this year. and who knows what would have happened on sunday had he kicked that sitter that would have put us 3 goals up

 

[swiftdog]

Yup...agreed....Aren't we supposed to be classed as "Supporters"...?

Lose the first final (and yes it hurt) and so many people turn into detractors of the club....WTF...??

To the greatest football club of all time....I applaud you, I support you and....kick arse this weekend...!!!!!

One question, can you answer it properly:

Why are we the greatest football club of all time?

 

[Optimax]

One question, can you answer it properly:

Why are we the greatest football club of all time?

i would have said our supporters

Now i just wonder why i delude myself about how good our supporter base is

 

[Nardz]

i would have said our supporters

Now i just wonder why i delude myself about how good our supporter base is

do you watch the club for their supporter base or do you watch them in hope of seeing them succeed?

 

[Optimax]

do you watch the club for their supporter base or do you watch them in hope of seeing them succeed?

The question was why is this club great not what do you watch them for

in any case i watch for enjoyment and love of the club

 

[Old Spice]

I'm not for trading Cloke. I believe his problems in front of goals are eminently fixable and I really like everything else he brings in terms of tackling, marking and leading. I think he could be a great if these issues are ironed out, a la early Riewoldt.

I do, however, think that there needs to be a shift in terms of dropping players, including sacred cows, who don't perform. Medhurst certainly should have been dropped for McCaffer who I believe could have played that small forward role with aplomb. Johnson for Clarke is another that springs to mind. Wood instead of Josh another. Leigh Brown...

A lot of the changes made currently are developing players for other developing players. I really believe we have to get stone-cold on all players - like Ross Lyon has done with Dal Santo, Ball and Hudghton.

 

[captain peanut]

Here we have a forward that cannot kick a goal to save his life.. about as useful as a gun without bullets.

he was okay today around the ground, but he is a forward. he cannot kick goals. this makes him pretty much useless to us moving forward.

we should shop him around.. see what we can get for him.. Bulldogs need a big forward and have plenty of midfielders to part with.. maybe we can structure a deal for ryan griffen so we can well and truly pack o'bree's bags? win win for all involved..

surely you jest with this thread? yeah let's trade a 22yo key forward who already has a b&f in a year that we made the prelim under the belt and who is about to come into his footballing prime. so what if he misses a few shots? he can join the club over the last couple of months

fair dinkum

 

[shawthing09]

If his goal kicking was the only issue it wouldn't be to much of an issue because he could be used in an old school ROK big wing roaming around getting cheap link marks type role as he did on the weekend.

The problem is not just his goal kicking but his kicking in general. I actually think his goal kicking will be easier to fix which is why I have been an advocate of moving him closer to goal and putting more emphasis on it.

 

[Coathanger]

Leave the guy at full forward for christ sakes!

Every club sits back and chuckles when he gets the ball on the wing.

Why can't he play exactly like Riewoldt did and lead to the 50 then have a shot? He is capable of doing it for you.You are giving 3 -4 goals away every week with this game plan.

And by the way you will smash the Crowbots this week!

 

[Nardz]

Why can't he play exactly like Riewoldt did and lead to the 50 then have a shot?

cause he'll miss.

 

[Macca42]

Get rid of him, for a guy who is 22 yrs old and been in the system for a few years now he hasn't shown anything as a forward ... For a bloke who is 100 + kg's he should be crunching packs and putting fear into the defenders, he certainly doesn't do that. I cringe everytime he has a set shot for goal because 99% of the time you know he wont kick it. He is good down the ground but his 2nd and 3rd efforts in the forward line are non existant. The Pies really need a big forward to stamp authority and win a game of their own boot like a Jonathan Brown, where as Cloke does NOT do those things when it count's.

 

[Damon_3388]

Get rid of him, for a guy who is 22 yrs old and been in the system for a few years now he hasn't shown anything as a forward ... For a bloke who is 100 + kg's he should be crunching packs and putting fear into the defenders, he certainly doesn't do that. I cringe everytime he has a set shot for goal because 99% of the time you know he wont kick it. He is good down the ground but his 2nd and 3rd efforts in the forward line are non existant. The Pies really need a big forward to stamp authority and win a game of their own boot like a Jonathan Brown, where as Cloke does NOT do those things when it count's.

That's all well and good, but where are we going to just go and get this big forward? Other teams aren't trading their champion key forwards, and probably aren't even going to want to trade their promising key forward prospects either. If we just get rid of him and start again via the draft, we're probably going to be waiting 3-4 years for a player to maybe surpass Cloke's output, and even then it might not be a certainty.

Apart from Lance Franklin, Jarryd Roughead, Kurt Tippett and maybe Josh J. Kennedy (I feel I'm being very generous with the last one), there isn't really any KPFs in the AFL who are the same age or younger than Cloke who are genuinely better right now.

 

[mdc]

Kennedy is clearly better than Cloke '09, but clearly worse than Cloke '07. Has better upside than either version though.

You're right though, there really isn't many better at his age. The thing that frustrates most with Cloke is that he's had a very weird progression curve. Improves drastically the first 2 years, then goes backwards consistently the next 2. It's bizarre.

edit: Hurley's another one

 

[Damon_3388]

Kennedy is clearly better than Cloke '09, but clearly worse than Cloke '07. Has better upside than either version though.

You're right though, there really isn't many better at his age. The thing that frustrates most with Cloke is that he's had a very weird progression curve. Improves drastically the first 2 years, then goes backwards consistently the next 2. It's bizarre.

edit: Hurley's another one

I don't really see how Kennedy is clearly better than Cloke this year. He's kicked a few more goals, but that's about it. He doesn't do as much around the ground as Cloke, and doesn't have the tank that Cloke has yet.

I didn't mention guys like Hurley, because I don't think he's better right now (he's only played 10 games), and I think Cloke has more runs on the board to be honest as well. Hurley is a great talent and has a lot of potential, but he could also remain at the same level and never improve. Unlikely, but still possible. Really though, by saying better right now, I was removing variables like potential from the argument, and just basing it on what people have shown so far.

 

[shawthing09]

I think when you consider how much WCE have struggled for most of the year it's not a stretch that 09 Kennedy has preformed better. Cloke has done less around the ground then Kennedy this year and kicked less goals despite Kennedy playing in a side that goes foward less often.

 

[mdc]

I don't really see how Kennedy is clearly better than Cloke this year. He's kicked a few more goals, but that's about it. He doesn't do as much around the ground as Cloke, and doesn't have the tank that Cloke has yet.

He's kicked almost double the goals, which, for a forward, is kind of important. I don't know, I've always seemed to rate Kennedy a bit higher than most.

I didn't mention guys like Hurley, because I don't think he's better right now (he's only played 10 games), and I think Cloke has more runs on the board to be honest as well. Hurley is a great talent and has a lot of potential, but he could also remain at the same level and never improve. Unlikely, but still possible. Really though, by saying better right now, I was removing variables like potential from the argument, and just basing it on what people have shown so far.

The thing is, I don't think there are any more "guys like Hurley". There's just Hurley. And even though he's only played 10 games, his ave. SC score (which from memory you do rate) is nearly 10 points higher than Cloke's this season.

But look, I do agree with your general argument; there just aren't a lot that perform better than him at his age...I said roughly the same thing with my first response to this thread. Trading him would achieve nothing.

 

[Damon_3388]

The thing is, I don't think there are any more "guys like Hurley". There's just Hurley. And even though he's only played 10 games, his ave. SC score (which from memory you do rate) is nearly 10 points higher than Cloke's this season.

What I meant by "guys like Hurley" is young guys who are in the first or second season. To be fair, Hurley has burst onto the scene and shown a great deal in his first season, but I'm not ready to judge him until he backs it up in his second season.

IMO, unless they are clearly 'not up to it' earlier, you shouldn't really make a final judgement on a KPP player until they've finished their 6th season on an AFL list. This gives a player time to adjust to the AFL game, build their body and their fitness base, maybe work their way out of being injury prone (eg. Sean Rusling), and then cement their place in the side. Obviously you can't carry every player you draft for 6 years, because some will show that they're clearly not up to it before that. But with that being said, unless Cloke has a terrible 2010 (which will be his 6th season), and we think we can clearly get someone better than him who can fill the CHF spot and give us a number of years service going forward, then he shouldn't be traded.

 

[Nardz]

i still stand by this. cloke has had 2 average/borderline OK finals and one where he's done next to nothing. coupled with shocking kicking for goal i firmly believe he is not our future in the forward line.

 

[jerry springer]

make him a backman or trade him

I cant see how anyone could defend him now

 

[smiddaz123]

I'm as disappointed in him as anyone, but there is no sense in trading him now.

His value will be at a minimum to other clubs after his form this year. We might as well keep him and persist, because we know he can play better than what he has shown.

We'll be getting a 2nd+ rounder for him at the moment, and I doubt we'll get a better player with that pick.

Don't see why we'd trade him to be honest.

 

[camo2572]

trade him whilst he still has some currency left in him.

 

[Nardz]

We'll be getting a 2nd+ rounder for him at the moment, and I doubt we'll get a better player with that pick.

I would honestly take that now. next year it'll be a 3rd rounder, year after 4th and so on.

You can get good players with 2nd rounders.
Anthony was pick 37
Beams Pick 29
Dawes Pick 28
Swan Pick 58

 

[TheGreatGrundy]

Play Cloke and Reid down back. Play Nathan Brown forward. Keep your fingers crossed that Dawes makes significant progress next year. If we get rid of Cloke, we just have another hole to fill.

Swap Cloke for Tarrant and stick Tarrant at full back. Swap Davis for a potential CHB or CHF, or even an established one. Davis is the most disappointing player out of everyone this finals' series. Toss Wellingham in as soft pewter steak knives to seal the deal.

 

[G.O.B]

There would be absolutely no harm in putting his name on the table and seeing what, if anything, we can get for him.

If we as a club have to depend on Trav to steer us to a premeirship we may as well start looking at who's going to replace Bucks as our coach because it will be a long time coming.

The club needs to make some hard decisions this off season and starting with the players that continually let us down would be a good place to start.
Trav is certainly amongst that group of players.