Cluster losing lustre for harried Hawks

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Rocketman#1

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Jun 16, 2008
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melbourne
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Hawthorn
The latest expert opinion from the AGE.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/rfnew...r-harried-hawks/2009/06/04/1243708567364.html


HAWTHORN is hurt; that much is obvious. Last year's premier sit five and five and clinging to eighth place. Four of those wins have come over languishing sides in Melbourne, Fremantle, North Melbourne and West Coast. The only fancied opponent the Hawks have dispatched has been Carlton. Just.
The Hawks have been smashed by injury; it is a reason, not an excuse. But while injury might explain the why it tells little of the how. Sometimes also, it can obscure the full truth. What are Hawthorn doing differently in 2009 and — the question some of the best minds in football are asking — have the Hawks been figured out?
Has the Clarkson cluster lost some lustre?
"It is not just injuries, no way," says one assistant coach who has beaten the Hawks this year. "Not having your best players hurts you but every club spent all summer implementing their own zonal structure with pressing. By practising doing it we learned how to attack against it."
It was Terry Wallace who first publicly identified that Hawthorn was doing something different last year. This weekend, as he exits the game, it is reasonable to ask if Hawthorn's unique gamestyle might be headed the same way.
After losing to Adelaide last Sunday, Alastair Clarkson wondered aloud how many premiership clubs had debuted five players so soon after grand final glory.
The answer, somewhat surprisingly, is plenty. West Coast in 2007 played five debutants over 22 rounds. Port Adelaide in 2005 had four. Brisbane Lions had five throughout 2004. Hawthorn, though, has done it in 10 rounds.
These are talented youngsters, Muston and Moss, Schoenmakers and Shiels, but they are not yet expert in the 15-man zone deployed with such success last year.
"It takes a fair bit of practice, leadership and confidence to get right," said another assistant coach to have unlocked the cluster this year. "When they play it this year, it is just not the same."
A look at the stats sheet reveals some fascinating facts about the 2009 Hawks. Steven Gilham and Trent Croad — the club's two best key defenders — have been missing all year. Add to that the absence of Luke Hodge and you'd expect trouble in defence.
You'd be mostly wrong. Hawthorn in 2009 concedes a score from 54.5 per cent of opposition forward entries. It is the third leakiest defence in the competition but here is where it gets interesting: the 2009 Hawk defence is more frugal than the 2008 premiership model.

The Hawks were lauded for their disposal last year, the foot skills of Hodge, Clinton Young, Stewart Dew and Brent Guerra considered vital and the club ranked No. 1 in the league for effective kicking.
Last year, 72 per cent of all Hawthorn kicks found their intended target. This year, somewhat surprisingly, that trend continues. Again the Hawks are the best kick in the league, their efficiency at 71.9 per cent.
What has changed is the amount of times the ball comes into their defence and the speed and precision with which they rebound.
"It's not just that Croad's out or Gilham's out, there is more ball coming into their defensive 50 this year," says another assistant coach to have enjoyed success against them. They are winning less contested footy because they are not as good at forcing turnovers from that kick out of defence and they are not winning it at stoppages as much."
The Hawks were useful at stoppages last year but that is not where they built their season. "They were sensational last year at cutting the ball off when you attacked, they'd shorten the field, you'd turn it over and they'd go bang back in your face," the assistant says.
Those turnovers —- a product of the famed pressing zone — allowed good kicks such as Young and Rick Ladson to pump the ball fast and direct to Jarryd Roughead and Lance Franklin. They are sorely missed.
Other teams are playing a little differently too. Last year Hawthorn averaged 173 handballs per match — the second highest in the competition. This year it averages the same number but lies 10th. Everybody else is handballing more; hanging on to the ball. Some in football call it sieving, it is the industry's answer to the Clarkson cluster.
Essendon beat the Hawks by kicking long, direct and quickly over the zone to loose men in the forward line but other sides have worked on maintaining composure and handballing through it.
"Players are not spooked by it as much as they were," says an assistant coach. "When a team uses the ball well, they can't win it off them."
An opposition scout from a club that beat the Hawks this year agrees: "The rolling zone has served them well but they need someone to organise it for them."
Hodge is the general who directs the defensive structure as it presses into midfield to — as Dutch soccer theory would put it — make the pitch small.
Without his brain and leadership the zone struggles. That's why another man with those traits — captain Sam Mitchell — was tried at half-back against West Coast. It's why Hodge will be rushed back this week, ready or not.

Against Adelaide, another weakness was exploited. The Crows fielded a tall forward in Kirk Tippet as well as two ruckmen. That meant Robert Campbell had to drop back, weakening the Hawks' ruck division.
When Campbell was needed in the ruck, Roughead and later Franklin were sent back to plug the gap. Adelaide was thrilled.
Against Sydney this weekend the same paradox arises.
Can the Hawks afford to play their best ruckman as a stopper on the in-form Barry Hall? The opposition scout says the Hawks rely more on man-on-man defence around the ground as the cluster comes under pressure. "There were signs early in the year that most clubs had spent time in the pre-season sieving the rolling zone. It ambushed a few clubs last year but when everyone sat back and examined it, it was not as hard to pull apart as we had thought," he says.
The picture is of an uncertain gameplan. "Last year they knew how they wanted to play and they did it every week," an assistant coach says. "Not this year. You show me a team that has too many gameplans and I'll show you a team that does not excel at any one gameplan."
One thing is clear, whatever is happening, the club does not want to talk about it. Coach Alastair Clarkson would not speak to The Age this week and permission to speak to any member of the club's coaching staff was also refused.
Stoppage king Sydney awaits. Last year, Hawthorn outscored its opponents by a total of 269 points from stoppages. This year it has been outscored by 83 points. The Hawks' ability to get hands on the ball in pack situations and break free of congestion has dropped.
There are also worries up forward. Franklin and Roughead, Cyril Rioli, Michael Osbourne and Mark Williams have all been available for most of the year. Clarkson's men snagged an average of 11 contested marks each week in 2008, the second most of any team. This year that has fallen to just over six a game, stone cold last.
The club of Franklin and Roughead — the twin towers of modern football — is the worst in the league for contested marks. That is extraordinary. In 2008 the Hawks registered a score 58 per cent of the time when they went inside the 50 metres arc, the highest efficiency rate of any side. This year, it is 48 per cent and they rank 10th.
"Franklin and Roughead are just not marking them as much, and the intensity of forward 50 tackles from Osbourne and Rioli is not as fanatical either," a rival assistant coach says.
It was Terry Wallace who first drew attention to the cluster. Another Wallace idea is the crunch game. Hawthorn faces one this weekend. Win it and the Hawks are six and five with games to follow against Brisbane, West Coast, the Bulldogs, Roos and Collingwood. Lose and it is a long way back.
 
I'm probably becoming renowned for defending The Age but i fail to see what is wrong with that article:confused:
(other than maybe stating the obvious!)
 

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I'm probably becoming renowned for defending The Age but i fail to see what is wrong with that article:confused:
(other than maybe stating the obvious!)


I'm with you Merv.

There is nothing much wrong with the article. The fact is that the rolling zone, cluster or whatever you want to call it is dead. It is time we learned how to play some contested, accountable football.
 
If the season culminates in a non finals appearance, and season 2010 serves up the same you might question Clarko then.
A non finals appearance this year, whether we like it or not, mitigating circumstances will have played a big part. By all means review the year, but to question the worth of Clarko's position after one ordinary year would be an extreme over reaction imo!
 
Well, Geelong didn't have an ordinary 08, and they're certainly not having an ordinary 09.

I don't subscribe to the theory that we're 5-5 because we're missing some key players. The great teams find a way; it's all between the ears of the players and coaches.

If the players aren't motivated, then the coaching staff don't know how to motivate them. If opposition teams have worked out a way to get around the cluster, then it behooves Clarkson and his assistants to counteract and innovate. If losing Viney to Adelaide has left a big hole, then it behooves Dunstall or whomever to plug it.
How can you not subscribe to this theory?
Do you seriously think we would have won the flag without Hodge Gilham Ladson Ellis Croad Osborne Young etc etc???

I am not saying injuries are the only reason (the other reasons are listed above in article, probably along with some unknowns!) but they are a major factor.

Its no suprise that St kilda are having their best season in years. One of the main factors being that they have had a much better run with injuries than previous years. (17 players have played all 10 games compared to our 9 - they also believe their fitness staff is the best it's ever been!)'
Geelong have had a great run with injuries for 3 years now.

Dont care what anyone says, less injuries is way way better!

I think another factor that isnt considered by many is that Clarko is trying to build a team for the future, that can be more resilient in the face of unwanted injuries.

Welcome aboard George by the way!
Good to see a new poster give reasons with their arguments instead of just slagging our personnel!
 
It's a solid piece of football journalism. The problem is that the truth hurts.

The next few weeks are going to reveal a lot about Clarkson, his assistants, their charges, and the overall culture of the HFC. My gut says that a crisis is brewing at Waverly, and anyone who thinks I'm being dramatic is kidding themselves.

If we don't finish top 4, then serious questions will have to be asked, and perhaps even a sub-committee should be formed to review Clarkson. Winning the 08 flag does not make Clarkson immune from scrutiny, and does not make a sub-par 09 acceptable, just as injuries do not excuse nonchalant performances from match-fit players.

I just can't shake the feeling that Hawthorn of 08/09 has a lot more in common with Port Adelaide of 04/05 than we would like. If you recall, Port finished on top of the ladder in 04 and won the flag only to finish 8th the following season, losing to Adelaide in the semi-final. The bottom line is, we should currently be third on the ladder, matching Geelong and St. Kilda in every statistical category save for points against. The fact that we're not is deeply troubling, if not mystifying.
Good post George. Also, welcome aboard.
 
without wanting to re-iterate the reasons that are oft mentioned about the current output of the team, there are 2 other questions i would ask;

1. Was the list turned over enough from last year?
I seem to recall jeans (or was it parko?) stating that to have sustained success, a premiership team needed to turn over at least 3 or so players each year. this made sense for several reasons, turnover of players sent a message to the playing group addressing complacency and it also ensured some difference in the team structure offering some change to the playing and coaching style. the off season provides a long time for the opposition to analyse the premiers.

ignoring the impact injuries have had on the best 22, the only real change from last year's team is the loss of crawford.

2. Did the premiership come too early?
now you are never going to turn down a premiership but this is in reference to the relative age and experience of our team and other than helping me understand our current plight it provides not much else. compared to other premiership teams our win has come relatively easily. just look at what port, sydney, weagles and geelong went through before they won a flag. take what you want out of that but it provides me with some rationale to this season's performance above and beyond the injury curse that we have been struck with.
 
without wanting to re-iterate the reasons that are oft mentioned about the current output of the team, there are 2 other questions i would ask;

1. Was the list turned over enough from last year?
I seem to recall jeans (or was it parko?) stating that to have sustained success, a premiership team needed to turn over at least 3 or so players each year. this made sense for several reasons, turnover of players sent a message to the playing group addressing complacency and it also ensured some difference in the team structure offering some change to the playing and coaching style. the off season provides a long time for the opposition to analyse the premiers.

ignoring the impact injuries have had on the best 22, the only real change from last year's team is the loss of crawford.

2. Did the premiership come too early?
now you are never going to turn down a premiership but this is in reference to the relative age and experience of our team and other than helping me understand our current plight it provides not much else. compared to other premiership teams our win has come relatively easily. just look at what port, sydney, weagles and geelong went through before they won a flag. take what you want out of that but it provides me with some rationale to this season's performance above and beyond the injury curse that we have been struck with.
If it did come too early, one of the byproducts of that is unrealistic expectations from fans, media, betting agencys, general footy population etc
I cant believe this week that we are someting like $1.30 and Swans around $3, despite winning them 7 of the last 8 and smacking us last time we played.
 
Well, Geelong didn't have an ordinary 08, and they're certainly not having an ordinary 09.

I don't subscribe to the theory that we're 5-5 because we're missing some key players. The great teams find a way; it's all between the ears of the players and coaches.

If the players aren't motivated, then the coaching staff don't know how to motivate them. If opposition teams have worked out a way to get around the cluster, then it behooves Clarkson and his assistants to counteract and innovate. If losing Viney to Adelaide has left a big hole, then it behooves Dunstall or whomever to plug it.

GZ You are quite mistaken, if you will recall the first time that Geelong lost in the preliminary final, the next year they finished very poorly and there was a huge review in Geelong that even questioned Bomber Thopmsons future. Then the year later they came out flying and have not looked back. I suspect this is that year for us. If you want knee jerk reactions perhaps you might consider going to Richmond or a team like that as those ideas will receive attention there.
 
If it did come too early, one of the byproducts of that is unrealistic expectations from fans, media, betting agencys, general footy population etc
I cant believe this week that we are someting like $1.30 and Swans around $3, despite winning them 7 of the last 8 and smacking us last time we played.

Saw that, its wierd, what ****** would be giving those odds against Sydney, they are one of our main bogey clubs even when we are playing well. I would think a max of 1.50/1.60 for the Swans for those crazy enough to bet on Footy, 3-1 odds is pretty enticing.

Its easy to speculate on the whys and whatevers, the basic fact is that we do not have the side we had last year. If you take the core defensive group out of a well drilled team, things like clusters will suffer. Does anybody seriously expect Dowler, Muston, McGlynn, Tuck, Shiels etc to be able to understand and implement the gameplan we used so successfully last year?

Apart from that we had 'cattle' on the park last year that could also hold their own 1 on 1 when required in the defensive zone, they are just not there this year - and most of the opposition has been exploiting this achiles heal.

Journos are focussing on the forward halfs output this year - contested marks etc, the ball needs to be placed with precision before our forwards will have a good chance to win it in a one on one. Plenty of the kicking into our forward half has been wasted this year, no Young, no Crawford, Hodge (when playing) has had to play tall and defensive...not drifting around setting up attacks, Lewis was missing early, no Ladson.... its just a compounding problem.

We are hanging by a thread ATM, to be seriously threatening with a full complement of players returning in the last part of the season we need to grovel 1 or 2 wins from the Sydney and Brisbane games. Lets hope the boys can come through this week.
 

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Saw that, its wierd, what ****** would be giving those odds against Sydney, they are one of our main bogey clubs even when we are playing well. I would think a max of 1.50/1.60 for the Swans for those crazy enough to bet on Footy, 3-1 odds is pretty enticing.

Its easy to speculate on the whys and whatevers, the basic fact is that we do not have the side we had last year. If you take the core defensive group out of a well drilled team, things like clusters will suffer. Does anybody seriously expect Dowler, Muston, McGlynn, Tuck, Shiels etc to be able to understand and implement the gameplan we used so successfully last year?

Apart from that we had 'cattle' on the park last year that could also hold their own 1 on 1 when required in the defensive zone, they are just not there this year - and most of the opposition has been exploiting this achiles heal.

Journos are focussing on the forward halfs output this year - contested marks etc, the ball needs to be placed with precision before our forwards will have a good chance to win it in a one on one. Plenty of the kicking into our forward half has been wasted this year, no Young, no Crawford, Hodge (when playing) has had to play tall and defensive...not drifting around setting up attacks, Lewis was missing early, no Ladson.... its just a compounding problem.

We are hanging by a thread ATM, to be seriously threatening with a full complement of players returning in the last part of the season we need to grovel 1 or 2 wins from the Sydney and Brisbane games. Lets hope the boys can come through this week.

what a great post! I still can't believe people don't think injuries haven't played a huge role in this years results. & yes we have looked VERY lack lustre at times, but when you can't get the same guys on the field at the same time, things just aren't going to work properly! any one who thinks that taking the full back (gilly), centre half back (croad), half back flank (lado) out of a team for the first half of a season & still doing well has rocks in their head! AND thats before you also take into account the major game time we have missed from lewis, hodge, x, young, sewell etc etc.

make no mistake, this has hurt us big time, & unless we can squeeze a few more wins before rounds 14 - 15 we are on the outer this year.

some of the new boys have stepped right up, whitecross impressing the hell out of me (gunna make it hard for lado I reckon) but the team as a whole has not shown the same 'mongrel to win' that we did last year either. is this a hang over? maybe. but injuries are still a HUGE part of it.
 
If we don't finish top 4, then serious questions will have to be asked, and perhaps even a sub-committee should be formed to review Clarkson. Winning the 08 flag does not make Clarkson immune from scrutiny, and does not make a sub-par 09 acceptable, just as injuries do not excuse nonchalant performances from match-fit players.
Sheesh don't they jump off - this bloke took a team that won 5 games in 05 to the ultimate in 3 years - lets give him at least the rest of the season to turn it around :rolleyes:
 
...and another thing. Forgetting the guys that havent made it into the starting lineup, how many times this year have we had players injuring themselves during the actual games? We seem to be getting classic 4th quarter injuries (twinged hammies etc) in the 1st and 2nd qtr. The only significant injuries in '08 (from my dodgy memory :)) were to Dewy - overstretching the hammy two or three times in the first half of the year, which was sort of expected after so long away from the game, and Crawfs ongoing knee problems.

I dont know how many proppy interchange players we have ended up with but AC has made the comment with monotonous regularity about a lack of 'cattle' on the park.

Remember we were cutting Melbourne to pieces in the 3rd quarter a few weeks back and still just managed to limp over the line by 20 odd points. Fit players on the bench is a key to running the games out. AC was saying we were lucky there wasnt a 5th quarter..
 
Sheesh don't they jump off - this bloke took a team that won 5 games in 05 to the ultimate in 3 years - lets give him at least the rest of the season to turn it around :rolleyes:

Sure thing, thats a bit rich singling out AC so soon after all he has done for the club.

Surely the problems this year are more to do with player management and injury recuperation than coaching. AC can coach how he likes, if many of the players available are fringe level or inexperienced then he is going to struggle for results.

If we can get the best players on our list into the positions they specialise in (preferably without resorting to wearing crutches), and then get some game time into them - watch out Geelong and Saints!
 
We're the youngest list in the comp.....but it's not that.
We've had the worst injury run in the last ten years....but it's not that.
We've been playing rookies, debutants and undersized players in KPP....but it's not that.
We've had in-game injuries in 9 of our 10 games....but it's not that.
We've had blokes cramping in the 3rd every week....but it's not that.
We've been the hunted all year, teams are 'up' every week against us....it could be that.
We've been worked out, Clarko's a terrible coach and we need to rebuild. yeah lets go with that one.

Are you for real?
 
It's a solid piece of football journalism. The problem is that the truth hurts.

The next few weeks are going to reveal a lot about Clarkson, his assistants, their charges, and the overall culture of the HFC. My gut says that a crisis is brewing at Waverly, and anyone who thinks I'm being dramatic is kidding themselves.

If we don't finish top 4, then serious questions will have to be asked, and perhaps even a sub-committee should be formed to review Clarkson. Winning the 08 flag does not make Clarkson immune from scrutiny, and does not make a sub-par 09 acceptable, just as injuries do not excuse nonchalant performances from match-fit players.

:confused::confused:

Steady on big fella. No need for that sort of talk, we've got one of the most innovative coaches in the league, if this slump is his fault then so was our flag last year. Put simply, as it says in that article, the kids are not quite nailling the game plan.

Would not suprise me in the slightest if Clarko has another innovative idea, he's just waiting till later in the season to unleash it.

Patience my friends. :thumbsu:
 
what a great post! I still can't believe people don't think injuries haven't played a huge role in this years results. & yes we have looked VERY lack lustre at times, but when you can't get the same guys on the field at the same time, things just aren't going to work properly! any one who thinks that taking the full back (gilly), centre half back (croad), half back flank (lado) out of a team for the first half of a season & still doing well has rocks in their head! AND thats before you also take into account the major game time we have missed from lewis, hodge, x, young, sewell etc etc.

make no mistake, this has hurt us big time, & unless we can squeeze a few more wins before rounds 14 - 15 we are on the outer this year.

some of the new boys have stepped right up, whitecross impressing the hell out of me (gunna make it hard for lado I reckon) but the team as a whole has not shown the same 'mongrel to win' that we did last year either. is this a hang over? maybe. but injuries are still a HUGE part of it.

I agree that injuries have played a factor in our struggles this year. Our depth has been tested and at this stage is not up to scratch.....yet...
Look at Geelong they have been missing Egan, Hunt, Ottens, Harley, Chapman, Ablett!!, Corey, Taylor and others at various times throughout the year and still haven't lost a game!! Now that is depth!!!
Don't get me wrong the game time put into Whitecross, Dowler, Moss, Shiels, Schoenmakers, Suckling etc. when benefit our depth immensly in the coming years but its just there yet. Hence Geelong are undefeated and we have 5 losses.
 
Geelong (until very recently) have had 3-5 players out each week - and had 2-3 players come in with ~50 games and 3-4 pre-seasons behind them.

We have (until very recently) had 6-10 players out each week - and had players come in with <10 games and 2 pre-seasons behind them.

Remember we are now where Geelong where 3 years ago.
 
Exactly, Geelong's depth is better than ours at the moment. We will benefit in the coming years when if we hold onto all our players our depth will be much improved.
 
I agree that injuries have played a factor in our struggles this year. Our depth has been tested and at this stage is not up to scratch.....yet...
Look at Geelong they have been missing Egan, Hunt, Ottens, Harley, Chapman, Ablett!!, Corey, Taylor and others at various times throughout the year and still haven't lost a game!! Now that is depth!!!
Don't get me wrong the game time put into Whitecross, Dowler, Moss, Shiels, Schoenmakers, Suckling etc. when benefit our depth immensly in the coming years but its just there yet. Hence Geelong are undefeated and we have 5 losses.

not having a go so dont take offence hawk & simon, but I think youve missed my point. YES geelong have injuries too, but they aren't all from the same part of the ground ie the back line. yes we can compare their mid field injuries to ours, but we are hurting down back far more then they are, & our game plan revolved around that drive from the back half. & simon you are very correct in pointing out their depth is better then ours, so they are able to cover their loses to personal around the ground much better then we have. but take out that core of defenders from the pussies, ie scarlett, harley, milburn, mackie & i'm pretty sure they would be hurting like we are :(
 
Exactly, Geelong's depth is better than ours at the moment. We will benefit in the coming years when if we hold onto all our players our depth will be much improved.

That's probably true, but Geelong's game style and structures aren't as dependent on capable personnel as ours.

The cluster isn't dead either, we just don't have the players to implement it, & losing confidence hasn't helped either. For example, The first quarter against Carlton, at the dome in the preseason was deadly accurate, before our youngsters ran out of legs.
 
I'm sorry Chunky, but I don't think Clarkson is doing all he can with the "cattle" he's got to work with. Clarkson is prone to petulance; he'll unfold his arms once everything is to his liking, and when that happens, it'll be too late.

What a kneejerk.
 

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