Preview Collingwood VFL 2013

[Hardas]

i agree. he has given a lot to the club, treated it like a full time job, shown excellent commitment to training etc. I'd feel a little slighted too considering he's played a lot of good footy for us at VFL level and represented the Vic state side on a couple of occasions. Sure, the club has to pick who is the best fit, but i dont blame the bloke for being disappointed

In terms of the VFL next year, the team is starting to look quite competitive. Those of us who went to their fair share of games at Vic Park last season would have seen our struggles through the centre first hand and it looks like weve gone a long way to solving those issues

Agree on all fronts, TMT.
Can't blame him for letting off a bit of steam - he clearly cares.
Also happy to back our recruiting staff all the way either way.
I guess this is the time of year for optimism anyway, but that AFL team looks a finalist, which can only bode well for the club in general.

 

[DaicosianMarvels]

Never rated Kris tbh, he would get killed in the AFL. If he isn't happy he can leave the VFL team, I personally don't want him and we don't need him. There are 18 clubs in the comp, if he was good enough at least would have got him, obviously he isn't good enough. I also think his VFL performances are over rated by some people on here.

I don't dislike the bloke or anything, if he chooses to change teams, good luck to him.

 

[Wooljay]

Earlier today on twitter:

krita pendlebury ‏@kritapendlebury
Time for a change..


Cable Brandon Sage ‏@cable_unplugged
@kritapendlebury How come the Pies didn't pick you up!


krita pendlebury ‏@kritapendlebury
@cable_unplugged got me stuffed mate..

annnnnnd..?

 

[Sun Tzu Buckaroo]

I think Toovey might be at risk of a Goldsack / Williams combo. Perhaps with Russell in the mix.

While Toovey is our best shut down player, he has no real offensive side and seems to often fumble along while moving it forward.

If we are moving forwards and becoming a 'new beast' you'd think that Johno and Didak will have to be forced out (as much as it pains me to say it). Didak is all skill, but with a dodgy pec, he can't add the pressure we need and he may slow down just a little bit. Johno might suffer from trying to get games into Marley or even the need for a kick-in specialist.

Don't shoot me down..but I think Maxwell might only have one year left as well. Goldsack, Keefe, Frost and Reid could all play his role (obviously not his superb leadership though).

By the end of the year, come finals times I wouldn't be surprised by the following squad.

B: Maxwell, Brown, Goldsack

HB: Shaw, Reid, O'brien

C: Swan, Jolly, Pendelbury
Ball, Young, Beams

HF: Fasolo, Lynch, Thomas

F: Krakouer, Cloke, Hudson

I: Sidebottom, Blair, Russell, Williams

(dropped: Toovey, Didak, Johnson)

P.S> my apologies for format- i prefer this way when arranging teams on paper.

 

[Knightmare]

Plenty of Toovey is not best 22 talk going about.

Whether I'm in the majority I do not know but I have him comfortably in the top 10 positions on our list and I consider him a top 5 shutdown defender (non key position) league wide - with Sean Dempster, Bryce Gibbs, Nick Smith the only players I'd really have in that high level shutdown category though a case could be made for a couple of others.

I'm pretty comfortable with Toovey in our best side. Not everyone needs to be offensive minded and Toovey is so unique because he is tall enough but also has the pace, agility, endurance, ability in the air and the 1v1 ability to go with anyone allowing him to many a key forward, a medium forward or a dangerous crumbing forward if we want him to - outside of those true monster type forwards.

Skills also underrated and I think with Toovey skill errors are a thing of the past. Plays much more confident footy with ball in hand and is not turnover prone/fumbley anymore. He's probably not even going to be the most significant driver from the back half but when you play a shutdown role as well as he does and offering that ability to take the oppositions best forward most weeks, regardless of type it's pretty handy to have in that best squad.

 

[Sun Tzu Buckaroo]

Plenty of Toovey is not best 22 talk going about.

Whether I'm in the majority I do not know but I have him comfortably in the top 10 positions on our list and I consider him a top 5 shutdown defender (non key position) league wide - with Sean Dempster, Bryce Gibbs, Nick Smith the only players I'd really have in that high level shutdown category though a case could be made for a couple of others.

I'm pretty comfortable with Toovey in our best side. Not everyone needs to be offensive minded and Toovey is so unique because he is tall enough but also has the pace, agility, endurance, ability in the air and the 1v1 ability to go with anyone allowing him to many a key forward, a medium forward or a dangerous crumbing forward if we want him to - outside of those true monster type forwards.

Skills also underrated and I think with Toovey skill errors are a thing of the past. Plays much more confident footy with ball in hand and is not turnover prone/fumbley anymore. He's probably not even going to be the most significant driver from the back half but when you play a shutdown role as well as he does and offering that ability to take the oppositions best forward most weeks, regardless of type it's pretty handy to have in that best squad.

I take your points. I may well be in the minority. I still think he has the fumbles sometimes (paddling the ball forward, not taking it cleanly, passing off in haste or not to the best option). With some teams, he's the first picked (thinking of Carlton and their Mosquito fleet), but with other Teams that only have one super paced forward he drops down the list quickly. May be horses for courses and I'm happy with that.

In time I think that Marley might have the pace to take on a Garlett/Betts or a Rioli with an added dimension - physical intimidation and cleaner offensive ability. He won't play tall, but would have to be balanced with another player (Goldsack maybe).

Will be interesting to see how it pans out over the next couple of years.

For breadth of shutdown...Toovey is the man though.

 

[sr36]

why do i get this feeling that Tooveys spot is up for grabs next year?

It's because you're insane.

 

[The Sqawka]

Toovey is clearly in our best 22 - FACT!

Let's close that argument down straight away.
He is one of our most consistent defenders who does his job week in, week out.
Anyone who suggests he is out of our best 22, clearly doesn't know football.

 

[blaze036]

Any thoughts on what sort of harm could be done if we sign garlett to our vfl team? He is going to play state league somewhere, is he worth giving him a crack with our vfl team?

Also, Harry can run and carry- his problem at the moment is that he over commits to contests and therefore is starting to lose more one on ones and not getting his hands on the footy as often around half back

Why would garlett leave his friends and family in WA, to move to vic to play VFL? He wouldn't have a house, any friends, know where to go, might even get better money in the WAFL too.

 

[blaze036]

Agree on all fronts, TMT.
Can't blame him for letting off a bit of steam - he clearly cares.
Also happy to back our recruiting staff all the way either way.
I guess this is the time of year for optimism anyway, but that AFL team looks a finalist, which can only bode well for the club in general.

Apparently Dywer had been told a few times he would be drafted then it never happened, no doubt dozens of blokes have the exact same reaction as krita pendlebury after they aren't drafted.. the only reason we even took notice of this one is because of who his brother is.

 

[Peter Sidorkiewicz]

This is how I see the VFL team looking:

B: Williams - Hartley - Yagmoor
Williams was a success as a small defender last season before injuring his shoulder and I expect he will continue in that role even at VFL level.

HB: Russell/Oxley - Keeffe/Frost - Ramsay
Russell and Keeffe will play AFL next season, probably about 10 games. Oxley and Frost are good positional pickups in the rookie draft to cover these positions.

C: Clarke/Broomhead - J Thomas - Seedsman
I think Seedsman will spend the entire year in the VFL. The mature rookies in Martin and Dwyer are probably ahead of him in the depth chart. I'm hoping that Clarke has a better season and can force his way back into the AFL team, at least for half a season. J. Thomas is on his absolute last chance. Anymore injuries and he is goneski.

HF: Macaffer - Paine/Gault/Richmond - Sinclair/Mooney
I'm expecting Paine to play more AFL games next season and Sinclair will likely to a semi regular too when injuries occur. After two years out I think Macaffer will struggle to play AFL next season but I wish him well, he will be competing with Goldsack for that 3rd tall 'defensive forward role'. Gault is an interesting one. Next season could be a make or break season. Recruited to the club as a forward/ruck option, he will likely get no ruck time after the drafting of Grundy and Hudson. And as a forward, he might get pushed out too as I think we are too tall with one of Witts or Grundy to play here as well as Paine (when he plays VFL) and possibly new rookie Richmond. Gault might need to find another position to play, possible as a tall backman.

F: Elliott - Grundy/Witts - Kennedy
With Krakouer available for the full season, Elliott should probably play the entire year in the VFL. Grundy and Witts will rotate as a ruck-forward duo and hopefully become a dominant VFL combo. I'm looking forward to see how Kennedy plays given the big raps on the kid.

FOLL: Hudson/Witts/Grundy - Martin - Dwyer
How the hell is 3 ruckman into one position going to work? It will be exactly the same as last season where will likely to see one tall 'rested' each week due to team balance. Martin and Dwyer are savvy rookie pickups as we were a bit weak in the midfield at VFL level. Not anymore.

 

[dubber]

It's been fun Kritta but if you're going to sook like a little Dawes that you didn't get picked up then don't let the door hit your arse on the way out.

Lets not forget that 17 other clubs also passed on him, it's not just something we're overlooking.

No need to be so harsh on someone who is disappointed in being overlooked. He gives 110% to the VFL team, we need his leadership and experience.

 

[jabbers]

Plenty of Toovey is not best 22 talk going about.

Whether I'm in the majority I do not know but I have him comfortably in the top 10 positions on our list and I consider him a top 5 shutdown defender (non key position) league wide - with Sean Dempster, Bryce Gibbs, Nick Smith the only players I'd really have in that high level shutdown category though a case could be made for a couple of others.

I'm pretty comfortable with Toovey in our best side. Not everyone needs to be offensive minded and Toovey is so unique because he is tall enough but also has the pace, agility, endurance, ability in the air and the 1v1 ability to go with anyone allowing him to many a key forward, a medium forward or a dangerous crumbing forward if we want him to - outside of those true monster type forwards.

Skills also underrated and I think with Toovey skill errors are a thing of the past. Plays much more confident footy with ball in hand and is not turnover prone/fumbley anymore. He's probably not even going to be the most significant driver from the back half but when you play a shutdown role as well as he does and offering that ability to take the oppositions best forward most weeks, regardless of type it's pretty handy to have in that best squad.

Agree entirely. Toovey is the one player you can rely on to do a shutdown roll. He had a hand injury all year which did have an impact on his ball handling, but people forget just how effective he is on a variety of different players. People comparing Williams to him are deluded. Toovey is much quicker, taller, stronger and more disciplined. Marley showed somwe great signs in his first year and should develop but toovey is one of the first picked because he consisetntly beats his man.

 

[iGNITER]

AFL (This is my 22, positions can vary)

B - Toovey Brown Maxwell
HB - O'Brien Reid Shaw
C - Beams Swan Young
HF - Thomas Cloke Goldsack
F - Krakouer Lynch Blair
R - Jolly Ball Pendlebury
INT - Sidebottom Fasolo Didak Russell

VFL

B - Williams Keeffe Yagmoor
HB - Broomhead Frost Johnson
C - Clarke Martin Seedsman
HF - Elliott Paine McCaffer
F - Kennedy Grundy Mooney
R - Witts Sinclair Dwyer
INT - Hudson Gault Richmond J.Thomas Hartley Oxley Ramsay (K.Pendles Sundberg etc)


TOP 4 - Both teams.

 

[Sun Tzu Buckaroo]

Both very

AFL (This is my 22, positions can vary)

B - Toovey Brown Maxwell
HB - O'Brien Reid Shaw
C - Beams Swan Young
HF - Thomas Cloke Goldsack
F - Krakouer Lynch Blair
R - Jolly Ball Pendlebury
INT - Sidebottom Fasolo Didak Russell

VFL

B - Williams Keeffe Yagmoor
HB - Broomhead Frost Johnson
C - Clarke Martin Seedsman
HF - Elliott Paine McCaffer
F - Kennedy Grundy Mooney
R - Witts Sinclair Dwyer
INT - Hudson Gault Richmond J.Thomas Hartley Oxley Ramsay (K.Pendles Sundberg etc)


TOP 4 - Both teams.

Both very attractive sides!

 

[DaVe86]

Haha Toovey is probably in the top 10 players Bucks puts down on his board every week. His spot is very safe.

Many have also moved Johnson on. I think if he gets himself fit then he has 1 more big year left. That leaves us plenty of run out of defence, with guys like Young who could also go back to provide a bit of bounce. I reckon we'll also see a bit more of Fasolo tried in different spots.

Harry and Toovey also provide a bit of rebound as they have fantastic pace. The backline is still pretty settled. Just need to get all the big names on the park.

The one spot I do struggle with if Maxwell's. I only squeeze him in because of his leadership and ability to organise. He also steps up in big games. But in terms of purely listing our best 22, I would have Keefe or another smaller guy like Russell stepping in. If Keefe is picked, it frees up Reid to play the sweeping role and to utilise his kicking. If Russell gets in, then Harry or Goldsack can play a bit taller in defensive roles.

 

[joefootylover]

Couple of points:

1. People saying "new player X is probably ahead of player Y already" when talking about a player X from a state or junior league and a player Y who has played AFL footy for us in 2012 are OUT OF THIER MINDS. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but HEAPS OF PLAYERS DOMINATE VFL with 30 touches a game and NEVER MAKE IT as AFL players. HEAPS of players are taken in the first round of the draft and NEVER MAKE IT. All else being equal (i.e injuries, intensity in the pre-season, etc) the players who have played AFL games for Collingwood in 2012 are ahead of the guys who have been playing VFL/SANFL, whatever.

2. The guy who wants to try Goldsack in Toovey's position because Toovey fumbles the ball... umm...

3. The guy who thinks that 2010 premiership player and All Australin Harry O'Brien is overrated by some Pies fans... umm...

4. I reckon the sides look very strong for 2013, so much so that I think it makes sense to assess the squads without reference to VFL listed players. We have a list of two teams of 22 plus three emergancies and I think that we should use VFL list players only when our injury list required it.

5. I also reckon people who think player x, y or z will go past whoever should also ask themselves who plays where in round 1, rather than in round 21, Anything can happen in a year of footy, players get injured, players have breakout years, players stagnate and lose form, NO ONE is safe, Keeffe could go past Brown, Ball could find himself in the same situation he was in in 2009 where he can't get the midfield minutes to justify his place, Grundy could surge past Lynch, the possibilities are affectively limitless, the question is where do we START?

So with all that said, and assuming no injuries, here are my squads for round 1 of 2013.

FB: Toovey Brown Maxwell
HB: O'Brien Reid Shaw

Our back six has been pretty stable the last few years, we usually play 7 defenders, with Davis, Johnno, Buckley, Williams, and Clarke used in that role over the last few years, but the six listed are the incumbents in the "team within a team" and if fit will all take the field round one. Blokes like Russell, Williams, Keeffe, Clarek and Seedsman will all be pressing, so there is plenty of optinons should injury or form require a change.

C: Beams Swan D.Thomas

Hard to believe that I have Beams on a wing, but I am more simply saying that he is in the starting midfield, and he will have to rotate from wing to centre square to half forward to bench just like the others, I just think that Ball adds that something extra, not so much in his own stats, but in the stats that Pendles and Swan can generate when he is in there, so I have those three as the "A team" for centre square bounce one, after that, let the rotation madness commence. Daisy will want to get back to his best and quickly with the amount of talent we have brought in this offseason too.

HF: Fasolo Lynch Goldsack
FF: Krakouer Cloke Blair

Agonised over this. Goldsack had by far his beast season this year, and given Lynch will be required to ruck every game we absolutley need some height up front to support the Cloke/Lynch tandem. Goldsack is the incumbent, so you back him in, BUT we have a LOT of options up forward this year. Same goes for Blair, only more so, Kennedy, Elliot, Sinclair and Mooney would all be eyeing his spot. Fasolo is a MORTAL LOCK for our best 22, the kid can play. Krak, Cloke and lynchy speak for themselves, but I do expect Cloke to play more as a FF with Lynch coming in, Lynch being a very effective roaming CHF who can pump it in.

R: Jolly Ball Pendles

Speaks for itself. If they are both fully fit Ball and Pendles (with Swan running through at full pace) make our best team for both winning centre bounce clearance and preventing the opposition from same. Beams is 4th by a whisker, as much because he can play other roles almost as well as any knock on his ability compared to these 2. Jolly, if fit, is our first ruck until he is not.

INT:
Young
Sidebottom
Johnson

I suspect that Young is pretty much guaranteed to line up in the spot vacated by Wellingham (not the role, just the spot) in the 22 next year, assuming a good preseason, just as Lynch is with Dawes. A lot can change thru the pre-season and thru the year, but I think he was brought in for a reason and Bucks has as much as said he expects him to line up round one. Rusty on the bench as that 7th midfielder, although he will probably spend 90 percent of his time on the ground running, running, running, and Johnson as that 7th defender sweeping out of defence. He may not make it through the year, and Russell might have his spot by the end, but people forget how good he was in the role before his injury, and how well he managed to come back off the back of barely any prep late. He is the incumbent as it stands, someone has to take his spot with form.

SUB:
Didak

Again, Didak is a great impact player, is advantaged by coming on fresh when opposition legs are tired, can kick goals, is a neat user and has creativity, he starts in 2013, BUT, Elliot, Sinclair, Kennedy, Mooney and half a dozen others will be looking at the opportunity of showing thier wares as a sub, if Dids can't stay fit and in form, he is just about the firs to go from this side.

I think that AFL side is top 4 with premiership potential. No real weaknesses if every player is fit and in form, so I am a happy camper. As I said, by the END of the year, there could be a dozen different players in the side, based on form, injury, structure, chemistry, whatever, but that looks a good starting point to me.

On to the VFL

VFL:
FB: Russell Frost* Ramsay
HB: Clarke Keeffe Seedsman

Russell, Keeffe, Seedsman and Clarke are KNOWN AFL quality backmen. Frost is a Presti style stopper who had the best finals series of any defender in the VFL, and Ramsay seems like a promising kid, add Oxley from the bench as the sweeper/distributer and you have a solid looking back half.

C: Williams J.Thomas Sinclair

Love Williams toughness, smarts, and energy, Josh Thomas looks a player IF he can stay fit, and Sinclair has that pace off a wing to damage and defend in equal measure. 2 of the 3 have AFL games under thier belts and where not disgraced.

HF: Elliot Gault Kennedy
FF: Macaffer Paine Mooney**

Macaffer, Paine, Elliot and Mooney all with AFL experience, all genuine goal kickers, Kennedy rated highly by many, Gault I thought looked good as a hard working lead up player at either end this year, our recruitment of backmen and delistment of ruck/forwards should see him return to the forwardline this year. Ala the AFL side, he is ahead of Richmond and Hartley until one or the other knock him out.

R: Witts Martin* Dwyer*

We have recruited two of the best midfielders in the VFL, lets stick em at the feet of our giant and agressive rucks and see what they can do! excited.

INT:
Grundy
Broomhead
Oxley*
Yagmoor*

Grundy and Witts will share the ruck, with Grundy spending a lot of time up forward, but in a nod to the more traditional rules of the VFL, I have Grundy on the bench, I expect he will relieve Witts, Paine, Gualt and Macaffer so spend 80 percent of the game on the ground. Broomhead is the 7th mid, Oxley the 7th defender, and Yagmoor hanging on by the skin of his teeth as the 22nd man.

EMG:
Hudson*
Richmond**
Hartley**

Very happy to have picked up Hudson, but I expect the way they will set up is to have him NOT playing at all but keeping fit, then if Jolly goes down promote whichever of Witts or Grundy has form and then play Hudson in the VFL. If the young bloke in the AFL tired/hasn't got form after a couple of weeks, Huddo has some run in his legs from the VFL and can come up. Richmond and Hartley are experiments, and so far we haven't seen much of either, Hartley having been injured much of this year. Thats fine, they will get games with the inevitable injuries that occur in footy or by rotation.

In summary. I think both our squads look like finals material in 2013. I like the stratagy we have implimented over the off season, we have brought in aggressive big men in Lynch and Hudson, talented youth in Kennedy, Broomhead and Grundy, inside midfielders in Martin and Dwyer, and even added some height and kicking skills.

wrapped.

GO PIES!

 

[Knightmare]

The one spot I do struggle with if Maxwell's. I only squeeze him in because of his leadership and ability to organise. He also steps up in big games. But in terms of purely listing our best 22, I would have Keefe or another smaller guy like Russell stepping in. If Keefe is picked, it frees up Reid to play the sweeping role and to utilise his kicking. If Russell gets in, then Harry or Goldsack can play a bit taller in defensive roles.

This is pretty much how I see it also and would be my plan post-Maxwell with Reid that perfect fit into that role and likely to play it to a much higher level with Keeffe and Brown to play as those KPPs.

Keeffe for me is more an omission because of injury last year and I just don't see his form this year getting back to that same level - takes time to come back from a knee but in 2014 in my view will be clear best 22 with that second season back and at this time might displace Maxwell from our best team with Reid and Brown those other talls down back.

Goldsack in the back half I'm not buying and he's never really had that consistency down back, it could be argued that because he is a confidence player and played only every second week this could be a big reason for this but I still think his play in the forward half has been to a higher level, with his rebounding game a liability down back with his kicking all over the place and times whereas in front of goal very consistent from not only field kicks but importantly set shot attempts.

This year as a forward was probably the first season where Goldsack was a clear best 22 player. With the height dynamic in the front half with Lynch to play that no.2 ruck role I'd look to keep Goldsack forward because he is tall enough to play alongside Cloke and Lynch with his quickness and energy tackling game but also presents as a marking target and goalscoring threat for those short periods when a Lynch pushes up the ground which made him so valueable this year. The only reason I'd even consider moving him back is if Paine/Macaffer/Gault move clearly past him, but in the back half I don't see who he replaces whereas up forward I at this stage given his performance last season consider him inside our best team at this stage.

 

[DaVe86]

Yep, for me the only battles for a spot down back are:

1. Maxwell v Keefe
2. Johnson v Russell.

The rest are pretty secure at this stage.

 

[Quicky]

Yep, for me the only battles for a spot down back are:

1. Maxwell v Keefe
2. Johnson v Russell.

The rest are pretty secure at this stage.

I agree however I wonder if it will be Johnson v Russell v Fasolo. As another crisp user of the footy out of the back half. Either forward back or mid i think Fasolos position is pretty secure form permitting.

 

[DaicosianMarvels]

Yep, for me the only battles for a spot down back are:

1. Maxwell v Keefe
2. Johnson v Russell.

The rest are pretty secure at this stage.

Well I think Maxwell is the safest player in our 22 even though on talent he wouldn't be top 20. for me it's, Brown v Keefe and Obrien v Russell. On last seasons form I would have Keefe ahead of Brown but then again he was coming back from an ACL injury and Keefe will be coming back from the same injury next season so it will be interesting who gets more AFL games.

 

[iGNITER]

I agree however I wonder if it will be Johnson v Russell v Fasolo. As another crisp user of the footy out of the back half. Either forward back or mid i think Fasolos position is pretty secure form permitting.

Dont mind the idea of this as he is a great user of the footy by foot. Just wonder what his defensive skills would be like...

Also he is usually a pretty reliable shot for goal up forward not sure if moving him down back would be the best move as we need these 'sharpshooters' up forward.

 

[blaze036]

Fasolo is just a stronger bodied version of didak, would be a disaster down back.

 

[Knightmare]

When Fasolo early season was playing selfish ball I was probably the starter of the conversation of Fasolo to go into the back half to learn to play some unselfish footy - surrounded by some sound heads in Maxwell, Harry and company. His game is certainly compatible with playing in the back half which is why I suggested it at the time because is has 1v1 ability, strong ability overhead then his footskills are excellent in a playmaking sense which also is a plus given our backline rebound was poor this year with minimal drive.

But with his strong second half of the season I like him more as a high half forward because he has now learnt how to play unselfish footy. His delivery is so good into the forward 50 that he can make our forwards better because his vision is so good finding players few others would spot. Add to that his marking ability and he is a big weapon in that Didak role of old as a harder though a stronger marking, better tackling and more of a ball winning Didak so I'd probably look for another defender as opposed to shifting Fasolo back, as I no long feel it's really needed with that new-found unselfishness.

 

[Matz]

slightly off topic, who do you guys think will run with Garlett or Betts rnd 2? I am worried about the leg speed we have and Harry O has been pantsed twice this year by Betts.
would like to hear peoples thoughts on this?