Covid 19 (OPEN DISCUSSION)

[Carbine Chaos]

I don't have much faith in the sheeple, but I really didn't think Australians were this mean and petty.

Mean and petty like calling people 'sheeple'?

 

[RookiePick]

This is like banning police and saying it's not the govt's fault when crime spikes. It's a stupid, unnecessary and divisive mandate that is already driving anger and frustration in the community.

If you're planning to bowl up to the bottlo and belt the attendant for doing their job, I doubt the mandate is what is driving your anger issue.

 

[Ilkka Sinisalo]

Are your eyes for decoration or are they painted on?
Where did i say Perrotet was elected premier? I said he was installed…
As for your second point you have actually made my point. The original poster was up in arms about nsw not following the health advice when McGowan doesn’t follow it himself …

As for bias i don’t care. i hate McGowan with a passion for what he has done to families including mine and wish a great number of things on him… so what.

Perrotet was elected before the pandemic even began. Nobody chose him to represent or lead anything related to the pandemic, because his last election was in 2019. He was “installed” because his predecessor was corrupt and had to resign, and he (as state treasurer) seemed to be next in line for the job. Contrast that with McGowan and Labor, who won in a massive landslide mostly because of how they have handled the pandemic. Yet you give Perrotet way more latitude in decision making, for reasons which are completely obvious to everyone reading this thread.

The NSW premier ignored health advice that the vaccines may be less effective against Omicron and cases in NSW were already starting to escalate, and he responded by charging ahead with removing density restrictions, indoor mask requirements, and various other things designed to reduce Covid spread. He ended up having to re-introduce those restrictions just over a week after they came down and several hundred people have died since that time. And this doesn’t strike you as newsworthy?

 

[Godfather32]

If you're planning to bowl up to the bottlo and belt the attendant for doing their job, I doubt the mandate is what is driving your anger issue.

It's probably the bundy

 

[Igavemyloveachicken]

We don't turn away fat people, smokers etc. but we do place them lower in triage situations and on donor lists. The same thing will happen for the unvaccinated. That doesn't mean we should be locking them out of society and showing our papers in an increasingly and worryingly authoritarian trend. I don't have much faith in the sheeple, but I really didn't think Australians were this mean and petty.

Nothing in my post suggested that they wouldn't get seen to especially in this country.
I just find it hypocritical that the loud minority anti vaxers will have no issue in taking strong aim at those that responsibly get vaccinated but will front to emergency in the event they come down with COVID.
Again in a country like Australia your privileged with that right. When that time comes however I hope they'll make an equal amount of noise as to how wrong they were however I doubt it.

 

[JEagle]

Mean and petty like calling people 'sheeple'?

Yes. Calling people morons vs. completely locking them out of society because you are scared and want the warm embrace of the govt. to protect you from something with 99.86 survivability rate across all cohorts (old and with co-morbidities) doesn't seem equivalent does it?You don't need to be anti vax to be anti authoritarian. The two aren't the same thing. Just have a look at where society is heading. Books that are deemed wrong think or traumatic being banned in schools, anyone that doesn't toe the company line is banned from social media. This is just another extension.

It also lacks critical examination of the negative impacts of these lockdowns, border closures and creeping authoritarianism in our society. Weighed against the threat if Covid, i know which i choose.

 

[Igavemyloveachicken]

Yes. Calling people morons vs. completely locking them out of society because you are scared and want the warm embrace of the govt. to protect you from something with 99.86 survivability rate across all cohorts (old and with co-morbidities) doesn't seem equivalent does it?You don't need to be anti vax to be anti authoritarian. The two aren't the same thing. Just have a look at where society is heading. Books that are deemed wrong think or traumatic being banned in schools, anyone that doesn't toe the company line is banned from social media. This is just another extension.

It also lacks critical examination of the negative impacts of these lockdowns, border closures and creeping authoritarianism in our society. Weighed against the threat if Covid, i know which i choose.

Where did you get the 99.86 survivability rate from out of interest?

 

[Doggies1972]

Every country’s rates have skyrocketed due to Onicron. That doesn’t change the underlying effectiveness of the booster shot.

lol

 

[Igavemyloveachicken]

Yes. Calling people morons vs. completely locking them out of society because you are scared and want the warm embrace of the govt. to protect you from something with 99.86 survivability rate across all cohorts (old and with co-morbidities) doesn't seem equivalent does it?You don't need to be anti vax to be anti authoritarian. The two aren't the same thing. Just have a look at where society is heading. Books that are deemed wrong think or traumatic being banned in schools, anyone that doesn't toe the company line is banned from social media. This is just another extension.

It also lacks critical examination of the negative impacts of these lockdowns, border closures and creeping authoritarianism in our society. Weighed against the threat if Covid, i know which i choose.

Unfortunately Governments often have to protect people from themselves and those they care for.
That's why Government laws like compulsory seat belts whilst travelling in cars and the need to wear a helmet whilst cycling are mandatory or fences around pools.
Seinfeld stated something similar to "These laws are implemented to protect the very brains of those that would oppose such sensible rules to begin with!"

 

[Goroyals22]

Perrotet was elected before the pandemic even began. Nobody chose him to represent or lead anything related to the pandemic, because his last election was in 2019. He was “installed” because his predecessor was corrupt and had to resign, and he (as state treasurer) seemed to be next in line for the job. Contrast that with McGowan and Labor, who won in a massive landslide mostly because of how they have handled the pandemic. Yet you give Perrotet way more latitude in decision making, for reasons which are completely obvious to everyone reading this thread.

The NSW premier ignored health advice that the vaccines may be less effective against Omicron and cases in NSW were already starting to escalate, and he responded by charging ahead with removing density restrictions, indoor mask requirements, and various other things designed to reduce Covid spread. He ended up having to re-introduce those restrictions just over a week after they came down and several hundred people have died since that time. And this doesn’t strike you as newsworthy?

Not particularly as health officials aren’t in control of the state regardless of what some people want …
Its also rich coming from someone who is very quick to worry about people dying in the pandemic but in the same breath is more than happy to post and cheer about the death of a man earlier in this thread mocking him as not loving his family as he wasn’t vaccinated. Hypocrite much.

 

[JEagle]

Where did you get the 99.86 survivability rate from out of interest?

Simple calc, but I just did total case numbers in Aus divided by total deaths. A statistician can tell me if I'm doing that wrong...

 

[Igavemyloveachicken]

Simple calc, but I just did total case numbers in Aus divided by total deaths. A statistician can tell me if I'm doing that wrong...

How about in other countries or regions where the government hasnt been so protective or authoritarian to use your mantra?

 

[Doggies1972]

Fact Check-Israel’s record COVID-19 case rate has been accompanied by high levels of testing

Social media users have speculated over why there is a spike in cases of COVID-19 in Israel, despite a high rate of vaccination among the population, the use of mask mandates and a “green pass” scheme that has meant only the vaccinated are able to enter restaurants, cafes...

www.reuters.com

High numbers of cases, much lower numbers of deaths and hospitalisations compared to their previous waves

Death and hospitalisation are lower in the vaccinated vs the unvaccinated


ie pretty much what people have been saying since the outset of the vaccines being developed, Israel is proving this

Death rates fluctuate, and they are currently seeing another spike.
2 days ago they had their second highest amount of deaths since the beginning of it all.
That is with 65% of the population having their 2 booster, 4th shot.

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epidemic-stats.com

 

[Forward Press]

Not particularly as health officials aren’t in control of the state regardless of what some people want …
Its also rich coming from someone who is very quick to worry about people dying in the pandemic but in the same breath is more than happy to post and cheer about the death of a man earlier in this thread mocking him as not loving his family as he wasn’t vaccinated. Hypocrite much.

The fact you are comparing innocent people dying which could have been prevented, with an anti-vaxxer succumbing in the ultimate case of irony and natural selection, speaks volumes as to the person you are really.

 

[JEagle]

Unfortunately Governments often have to protect people from themselves and those they care for.
That's why Government laws like compulsory seat belts whilst travelling in cars and the need to wear a helmet whilst cycling are mandatory or fences around pools.
Seinfeld stated something similar to "These laws are implemented to protect the very brains of those that would oppose such sensible rules to begin with!"

That's a nanny state. Helmets and seatbelts don't hurt anyone other than the person not wearing them.

The Western World abrogates personal responsibility. We always cater to the lowest common denominator. It's never the individuals fault. Always someone elses.

Some moron falls off a cliff taking a selfie and the council is sued for not erecting a barrier. In a country that embraces actual freedom it is no less tragic, but is seen for what it is, a lapse in personal judgement and responsibility and no ones fault other than the person who fell.

It is clear that the only thing a non vaccinated person may do is show up at a hospital at a greater rate than someone who is. Either way the hospital will be overstretched. They were so w out Covid. I don't think it's worth these lockdows and treating people like they are leaking AIDS for not being vacced.

 

[JEagle]

How about in other countries or regions where the government hasnt been so protective or authoritarian to use your mantra?

Africa? Lowest vacc rate and still lower death rate. Sweden? No lock downs at all, same numbers. Florida in USA, no diff from heavily locked down California or NY.

Don't get me wrong, McGowan was right to lock us down the first time and even a couple subsequent. We had that luxury at the time. That time has since passed.

 

[CM9000]

Sure, as you're likely aware, in Australia we don't have a BoR. Indeed we don't have many rights that you could consider as guaranteed or incredibly hard to change (5 in the constitution, 6 with defacto right to freedom of political communication --> free speech(ish)). We do however have a patchwork of legislation in different areas of the law (employment, health, communications etc), case law affirmed by Australian courts based on international precedent and some human rights legislation in different states which is why you see quixotic challenges to federal law by Victorian complainants, for example. All of which is subject to parliament exercising its authority and expunging them (constitution requires ref double majority etc).

So broadly speaking we have 'rights' or perhaps more accurately we have norms that fall in line with most liberal democracies but that rely more heavily on broad readings by the courts and can be changed at the whim of lawmakers.

Take for example the right to associate - which is enshrined in some states that have adopted the ICCPR, the Fair Work Act etc but isn't explicitly protected by CTH, (the HC is unclear). We all take the right to associate as basically a given, but that 'right' has never been less clear and has been slowly eroded by legislation over the last decade aimed at stopping 'Bikies', the HC for its part has essentially upheld the laws or not dealt with the question of association and if it is protected.

These laws have done very little to quell Bikie gangs, but they have overwhelmingly targeted indigenous peoples, increasing sentencing and incarceration rates, making it easier to issue move-on notices etc. Similarly, the extraordinary powers used during the pandemic quite nakedly show that whatever right to association we thought we had was ephemeral.

Another example, in Australia, you can't refuse service to someone based on sex/race/religion - this is law. What happens when we start seeing Indigenous and minority peoples turned away from service at disproportionate numbers to other cultural groups on the basis of their vaccination status? This will happen.

Another one that has almost been ignored - that's the intention - is the intrusion on privacy and communications - diluting longstanding 'rights' to have a reasonable expectation of privacy from government interference. This started after 9/11 when sweeping reforms were brought in, it got crazy in 2015, but we were all fine with metadata because, 'why do I need to hide my IP address'? We now know that metadata is essentially everything, but the laws are on the books. Again in 2018, the law was changed again with the TOLA amendment, which means that private companies can now share data, agencies can demand back doors, encryption broken etc. etc.

And then what do we see in 2019 but an AFP raid on the Sunday Telegraph, we also found out that the AFP had accessed Journalists' metadata on numerous occasions over the preceding years. In 2021, despite objections, the government passed the most egregious surveillance amendments in the midst of a pandemic which gave cover for the expansive surveillance state (hell, it was/is a time where tracking apps were launched and have been required for practical living) and those amendments essentially allow for warrantless hacking of your devices.

This all creates a chilling effect on freedom of the press, expression and protest and if you do not think it will affect groups that you care about, you are wrong. There is a long-standing pattern of successive governments using extraordinary circumstances to introduce bad law which never goes away and will be used to narrow a liberal society.

I feel you might have mistaken what I meant by my question. What I was asking for was a more general definition i.e. how it is understood by most countries. I apologise if I came across as vague or somewhat obtuse, that was hardly my intention. What I‘m looking for is what you mean by “right” in itself, or, to put it in other words, the definition that makes both the right to associate and the right to privacy able to be classified as rights.

As such, how would you define a right?

 

[Forward Press]

That's a nanny state. Helmets and seatbelts don't hurt anyone other than the person not wearing them.

The Western World abrogates personal responsibility. We always cater to the lowest common denominator. It's never the individuals fault. Always someone elses.

Some moron falls off a cliff taking a selfie and the council is sued for not erecting a barrier. In a country that embraces actual freedom it is no less tragic, but is seen for what it is, a lapse in personal judgement and responsibility and no ones fault other than the person who fell.

It is clear that the only thing a non vaccinated person may do is show up at a hospital at a greater rate than someone who is. Either way the hospital will be overstretched. They were so w out Covid. I don't think it's worth these lockdows and treating people like they are leaking AIDS for not being vacced.

Helmets and seatbelts do however hurt the friends and families around that person, and the health system if they survive.

I notice you admit the hospital will be overstretched with an influx of COVID cases - then, at that point, if there is one ventilator left and a vaccinated and unvaccinated patient to choose from (all other things being equal like age, health etc) - would you not make the choice? Are not mandatory vaccinations used as a tool to ease the burden on a health system and increase the odds for both the vaccinated and unvaccinated too?

 

[CM9000]

That's a nanny state. Helmets and seatbelts don't hurt anyone other than the person not wearing them.

The Western World abrogates personal responsibility. We always cater to the lowest common denominator. It's never the individuals fault. Always someone elses.

Some moron falls off a cliff taking a selfie and the council is sued for not erecting a barrier. In a country that embraces actual freedom it is no less tragic, but is seen for what it is, a lapse in personal judgement and responsibility and no ones fault other than the person who fell.

It is clear that the only thing a non vaccinated person may do is show up at a hospital at a greater rate than someone who is. Either way the hospital will be overstretched. They were so w out Covid. I don't think it's worth these lockdows and treating people like they are leaking AIDS for not being vacced.

What do you mean by “personal responsibility“?

 

[JEagle]

Helmets and seatbelts do however hurt the friends and families around that person, and the health system if they survive.

I notice you admit the hospital will be overstretched with an influx of COVID cases - then, at that point, if there is one ventilator left and a vaccinated and unvaccinated patient to choose from (all other things being equal like age, health etc) - would you not make the choice? Are not mandatory vaccinations used as a tool to ease the burden on a health system and increase the odds for both the vaccinated and unvaccinated too?

All else being equal, you pick the vacced person. Stated as much prior. Triage rules apply. It's not the T Virus from Resident Evil. Most will be ok with bed rest, fluids and paracetamol just like the flu.

 

[Godfather32]

Some of the temper tantrums by those locked out of bottleshops today are amazing

 

[Igavemyloveachicken]

Africa? Lowest vacc rate and still lower death rate. Sweden? No lock downs at all, same numbers. Florida in USA, no diff from heavily locked down California or NY.

Don't get me wrong, McGowan was right to lock us down the first time and even a couple subsequent. We had that luxury at the time. That time has since passed.

With all due respect to the continent of Africa, I would doubt the reliability of their numbers, many governments in that region are the true definition of Authoritarian/Dictatorship Governments.
I'd be curious to see the numbers of USA or the U.K as a whole but don't expect you to look that up. Statistics can be analysed in many ways, what if NSW and Victoria had the same border protocols as W.A, the percentage of survival rates would be even better.
Out of interest why doesn't W.A still have that luxury to operate in the manner in which we are currently?
Everyone has a vested interest in how COVID is governed and I ask this question with all sincerity and not to have a go. Do you have a vested interest in W.A not following the example of N.S.W and Victoria, do you own a small business that is going under (If so then I'm sincerely sorry that is the case).

 

[Ambrose Burnside]

If McGowan's border is so secure, why are we seeing nutters from other boards over here too?

**** me McStalin, do your job. West Coast nutters only ffs

PS: 4%

 

[Goroyals22]

The fact you are comparing innocent people dying which could have been prevented, with an anti-vaxxer succumbing in the ultimate case of irony and natural selection, speaks volumes as to the person you are really.

And one of us is cheering it on.. says a lot about the person you are actually.

 

[Igavemyloveachicken]

That's a nanny state. Helmets and seatbelts don't hurt anyone other than the person not wearing them.

The Western World abrogates personal responsibility. We always cater to the lowest common denominator. It's never the individuals fault. Always someone elses.

Some moron falls off a cliff taking a selfie and the council is sued for not erecting a barrier. In a country that embraces actual freedom it is no less tragic, but is seen for what it is, a lapse in personal judgement and responsibility and no ones fault other than the person who fell.

It is clear that the only thing a non vaccinated person may do is show up at a hospital at a greater rate than someone who is. Either way the hospital will be overstretched. They were so w out Covid. I don't think it's worth these lockdows and treating people like they are leaking AIDS for not being vacced.

So if a parent doesn't get their child to put on a seatbelt and that child dies in an accident then who do you attribute the blame to?
How about the person that was in the other car and has to live with the fact that a child has died from something completely avoidable, are they not victims also?