2nds Crows in the SANFL Round 22

[PyroCrow]

Yeah, I am serious. If you are lying on the ground in a state of shock cause you got a head knock, of course the runner is going to take you off. Beau Waters got up and ran off.. Just like Selwood does countless times a game. I know what I am saying is not the popular caring new age guy thing to say. But shit happens. When I was playing you did not go off unless you were knocked out cold or you couldnt stay on your feet. Not because you were feeling to see if you have an egg on your head.

 

[Freddy Bassett]

expect nothing less from a Gunners supporter

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

Yeah, I am serious. If you are lying on the ground in a state of shock cause you got a head knock, of course the runner is going to take you off. Beau Waters got up and ran off.. Just like Selwood does countless times a game. I know what I am saying is not the popular caring new age guy thing to say. But shit happens. When I was playing you did not go off unless you were knocked out cold or you couldnt stay on your feet. Not because you were feeling to see if you have an egg on your head.

You're spot on.

Being concussed is not a black and white thing. There are varying degrees and there will be times when it's right on the cusp. If you can get your shit together, glance at the scoreboard to see what quarter it is, check where Walker is to know which way we're kicking, then get up and join in with the play even with your head still spinning... you're not coming off the ground.

There will be players who will will themselves to go on rather than succumb. As soon as the doctors get their mits on you... you're cooked. Best to avoid them and at least act like you aren't concussed. There is no doubt that a player like Joel Selwood will do everything in his power to stay out there and will know exactly what the doctors are looking for.

Headaches? No.
Neck sore? No.
Any blurred vision? No.
Feeling any nausea? No.

 

[cmndstab]

That's ridiculous. They have mandatory concussion tests nowadays. That's the primary reason Walker got extra games for his tackle on Harry Taylor - because he had to "leave the ground" even though leaving the ground was part of the AFL's own rules.

You can't cheat on a concussion test.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

That's ridiculous. They have mandatory concussion tests nowadays. That's the primary reason Walker got extra games for his tackle on Harry Taylor - because he had to "leave the ground" even though leaving the ground was part of the AFL's own rules.

You can't cheat on a concussion test.

Avoiding the concussion test is the best way to pass the concussion test. Stay down, stagger around, clutch your head... the docs will be rushing out there with the concussion test papers hot off the copier. Get up, go to the next contest, don't draw attention to yourself.

You're being quite naive here. Do you agree that players don't want to go off the ground, even if they are concussed? Therefore players will seek out ways not to go off the ground. You already hear the wink wink nudge nudge comments from players about deliberately doing badly on their preseason benchmark tests.

 

[cmndstab]

Of course players don't want to go off. If you get smacked hard in the head, you're going to get tested. No amount of pretending is going to prevent it. The clubs have an obligation to ensure you are tested when there is the remotest doubt.

I have no doubt players will try to avoid the tests at all costs. The problem is, they can't.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

Of course players don't want to go off. If you get smacked hard in the head, you're going to get tested. No amount of pretending is going to prevent it. The clubs have an obligation to ensure you are tested when there is the remotest doubt.

I have no doubt players will try to avoid the tests at all costs. The problem is, they can't.

Why can't they? Especially when it is the vested interest of the clubs - the ones who employ the doctors - for the player to be declared fit to play.

This is the biggest grey area in the whole concussion rule.

We've already seen some very dodgy dealings such as players not coming off the ground at all and just playing on or sitting the test many minutes later to give them time to clear their head.

Phil Harper gave a very dodgy answer about this that Gerard Healy posed to Sanderson On The Couch, where Phil indicated that when McKernan (jaw) and Tippett (concussion) both came off you had a choice between sending a guy with a broken jaw and a guy with a very mild, borderline concussion back on the field... what would you do? If it was a final... Phil hinted. Yeah, shut up, Phil. Say no more.

In one of Tippett's concussion games he copped a knock in the first quarter but was not subbed until after half time. How long does this test take to sit?! There is obviously some amount of wriggle room for doctors there. Doctors will be able to follow the letter of the rules that dictate their treatment of head knocks and at the same time have the players follow the course of action that gives them the best opportunity of returning to the field. Players will work out the way they need to behave to give themselves the best chance of returning to the field. That's reality.

 

[cmndstab]

It's in the best interests of the club for a player to play, yes, except that if it turns out the player was concussed and the club didn't detect it, they're ****ed. The AFL will come down on the club like a tonne of bricks and the AFLPA will be one step behind them.

As for Tippett's knock, and not being subbed until after half time, I have no idea. Perhaps the test was indicative but not conclusive and they wanted to give him some time to see what happened? I'm not exactly an expert on concussions. What I do know is that Tippett being subbed had nothing to do with Tippett not having enough pride in the jumper, or enough guts to try to fight through the blur.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

It's in the best interests of the club for a player to play, yes, except that if it turns out the player was concussed and the club didn't detect it, they're screwed. The AFL will come down on the club like a tonne of bricks and the AFLPA will be one step behind them.

How would the AFL/AFLPA find this out?

As for Tippett's knock, and not being subbed until after half time, I have no idea. Perhaps the test was indicative but not conclusive and they wanted to give him some time to see what happened? I'm not exactly an expert on concussions. What I do know is that Tippett being subbed had nothing to do with Tippett not having enough pride in the jumper, or enough guts to try to fight through the blur.

Yeah, I don't know either. But either way he wasn't ruled out until an hour after the clash. Doesn't sound very black and white / pass-or-fail to me.

 

[cmndstab]

How would the AFL/AFLPA find this out?


Yeah, I don't know either. But either way he wasn't ruled out until an hour after the clash. Doesn't sound very black and white / pass-or-fail to me.

I don't know how they'd find out. I guess if Tippett played the rest of the match, then missed a month with head injuries, they might do an investigation. No idea. You're basically asking the club doctors to lie about an injury though which isn't really a good option in my mind.

Again, I don't know if the test is "black or white". But if you've failed the test, then you can't come back on. Tippett wanted to continue playing, but he couldn't because he failed the test. Blaming him for not avoiding the test that the doctors are obligated to give him seems a bit harsh to me.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

I don't know how they'd find out. I guess if Tippett played the rest of the match, then missed a month with head injuries, they might do an investigation. No idea. You're basically asking the club doctors to lie about an injury though which isn't really a good option in my mind.

It's not lying. It's conducting yourself within the framework in a way that gives the player the best chance of returning to the field.

Club doctors would tread a very fine line. The company line that coaches trot out when asked about concussion or injuries in general is "we will rely on the medical staff" but at the same time clubs don't want hysterical medical staff that put a line through players at the drop of a hat. Doctors know this and presumably want to remain in their employment. They must tread the line between playing it safe and pushing the boundaries of what the rules allow.

Again, I don't know if the test is "black or white". But if you've failed the test, then you can't come back on. Tippett wanted to continue playing, but he couldn't because he failed the test. Blaming him for not avoiding the test that the doctors are obligated to give him seems a bit harsh to me.

I haven't criticised Tippett once. If a player is genuinely concussed, doesn't have all their faculties and can't come back on then there is nothing you can do. The ones I'm talking about are the ones where it is borderline.

 

[cmndstab]

Well, anyway. I guess neither of us really know whether Tippett was borderline or not so it's a bit of a moot point.

 

[macca23]

Stabby, Dangerfield was advocating exactly what Carl is saying. He said that Tippet should shake his head, shrug off the trainers and run onto the next contest.

He said that's what he always does.

He does too. I've seen occasions where Patrick is lying flat on his back with that tell-tale quivering arms in the air so typical of concussion.

Patrick has lived up to his words because after a bit of attention from the trainers, he plays on rather than even come off.

 

[dylan123]

Yeah it was pretty evident earlier in the year Selwood did something similar, was in a big hit and when he got up he got rid of the doctors/trainers, made it to the next contest where he was wobbly and stumbled/fell over shortly after before being pulled off. But was at least able to get rid of them the first time when it was pretty evident he'd just been knocked out.

 

[RocknRoll]

I dont buy the arguments the concussions were just flukes.
What is the probability of a given player getting concussed 3 games in a row if they are independent events?(Stabby? )
Virtually zippo I'd guess.
Now he has been repeatedly concussed is he more prone to future concussion? Probably, maybe even almost certainly but nobody would know for sure. Not even Australia's top neurosurgeon could answer that with any degree of confidence IMHO.
So if we dont know when he will get his next one - will it be his last?
Is he really worthy the tag of highest paid player on a 5 year contract? That is a huge risk to take. A bit similar to Davi$ really.
I think this is paying over the market myself - hope he buggers off to Queensland and we get some decent compo for him instead, myself. I love him but enough is enough - Crows are being hung out to dry here. He could be the Fev of the Crows - paying him out for years after retirement ...

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

You know how if you've got a sore thumb or toe you somehow manage to keep bumping it? Same with Kurts head

 

[craig crowing]

Looking for feedback re Crows in SANFL .
Oops must have gone to wrong area.
Well with Martin signing this week tells me very happy with and return game so expect him to get a gig Vs suns

 

[Freddy Bassett]

Of course players don't want to go off. If you get smacked hard in the head, you're going to get tested. No amount of pretending is going to prevent it. The clubs have an obligation to ensure you are tested when there is the remotest doubt.

I have no doubt players will try to avoid the tests at all costs. The problem is, they can't.

Please watch Tippetts 3rd concussion.... Beau Waters did what 90% of hard at it football players would do... Got to his feet and ran off like nothing happened... As long as the lights are on you play on... If you are struggling to stay on your feet, a trainer drags you off.

I have seen players break their leg and try and get up and run off... I am sure Sloane and Danger would be that kind of player..

 

[cmndstab]

The real question, following the line of reasoning you guys are using, is did Tippett attempt to avoid the concussion test for the first concussion? I honestly don't remember.

After the first concussion, anything else is a moot point. He's had one concussion, he's going to be tested when he gets another head knock in his first game back. No amount of trying to will himself back up is going to prevent a doctor from testing the guy who has just returned from a concussion to receive another knock to the head.


RnR - no doubt concussions are not independent events when they occur in close time proximity. What I'm not sure about, however, is how much time has to pass before they become independent again. If Tippett doesn't suffer another concussion for the rest of the year or the preseason, is he still at greater risk next year than someone who has never suffered one? I'd assume not, but really I have no idea.

Davis' shoulders seem like a different proposition to me. The wear and tear around that area will never fully heal. I would assume the same is not true of a concussion, but again, I don't really know.