Crows to Roll the Dice

[Drummond]

Crows to roll the dice

ADELAIDE is to take a short-term gamble that is to have long-term consequences on its chase for another AFL premiership.

And with the ninth-placed Crows' blind determination to walk the tight-rope to September's AFL final series will come a new searchlight on coach Neil Craig's performance.

It will question whether Craig's era has indeed regenerated a list the Adelaide board said could not be taken further by his predecessor, Gary Ayres.

Adelaide's 8-8 win-loss record demands, at best, probably four wins from the Crows' next six games to reach the top eight.

The other relevant question is: should an inconsistent Adelaide, that would need to string together four wins in September to claim the flag, desist from chasing a finals' berth to concentrate on youth and assessing its list which is the AFL's oldest?

Should Adelaide wipe out 2007, taking short-term pain to find its new future?

Adelaide midfielder Tyson Edwards yesterday was left in the hot seat to answer just where the Crows' season - and future - is heading. He was adamant something is to made of 2007, particularly when the premiership race is considered to be wide open.

"You always have to keep aiming for the finals," said Edwards, a dual premiership player.

"I don't think we will ever shy away from that. If you can't get there, you then re-assess things - maybe try a few different things for next year.

"But we certainly won't be doing that until (we are out of the finals race). I still see us very much in the hunt."

But Edwards' answer on just what has emerged as new - and exciting - at Adelaide this season was telling. It was almost as revealing as Craig describing his team being "stagnant" in a year he demanded improvement.

Edwards had said an area of improvement in Adelaide's graph this year had been: "Young guys coming in and performing really well."

Asked to name them, Edwards said: "Chris Knights.

"Scott Thompson even, not that he is so young (24), but he has had a fantastic season and been very consisent.

"You could go through quite a few. But there's lot of guys who have taken on different roles and done really good jobs for us - things you guys don't see.

"I've seen a huge improvement from a lot of them."

Three years on from Ayres' exit from West Lakes, the list development the Adelaide board demanded of its new coach - Craig - makes for an interesting debate.

On the scoreboard, Craig suddenly transformed Adelaide. He had a 36-14 win-loss record (72 per cent success) in his first 50 games. In his next 24, he is 11-13 (46 per cent).

In list development, there are these two notes to be made. First, Adelaide's squad has not become significantly younger in Craig's time. This is despite Craig making the big calls in moving on ruckman Matthew Clarke and defender Ben Hart.

At the weekend, there was just four "youth" aspects to the Adelaide line-up - Knights, ruckman Ivan Maric, run-with player Nathan van Berlo and utility Richard Douglas. None is a teenager, however.

Adelaide short-term chase for a finals berth - and long-term need for new talent - will be tested at selection for Sunday's clash with Essendon at Telstra Dome. There is still no certainy the Crows will regain captain Mark Ricciuto (ankle) or full back Ben Rutten, whose left-knee injury - that was considered insignificant a week ago - has now become more troublesome than his corked calf.

Terrific article by Michelangelo Rucci today.

I agree that our chances of success this season are non-existent, and we should be looking to the future. For starters everyone in this pic should be playing on the weekend…

 

[Malibu#27]

Terrific article by Michelangelo Rucci today.

I agree that our chances of success this season are non-existent, and we should be looking to the future. For starters everyone in this pic should be playing on the weekend…

I would have thought NC would have been a bit past playing .... the games become too much of an athletes game.

Also I still maintain that until you cant make it, you still can make it, and if you can make it you can win it.

 

[big schnitzel]

Terrific article by Michelangelo Rucci today.

I agree that our chances of success this season are non-existent, and we should be looking to the future. For starters everyone in this pic should be playing on the weekend…

Rubbish! So we play for picks, develop our kids and scrap the season? I don't care where a team is on the ladder, as long as you are in finals contention your best side should always be on the park and you should always play to win.

In our case, it would be ridiculous to pull the pin on the season. It is such an even competition, I firmly believe that even if we finish outside the top four with a bit of form we are a shot. Playing in Melbourne brings us no fear (remember the Cats home finals will not be in Geelong).

"The long term option" doesn't always work - take St. Kilda for example. Plenty of early draft picks and thus far they have nothing to show for it.

 

[Tas]

Hehehe, it sounds like a "play kids so you don't beat Port" article. He doesn't want Port to drop a game or to go into the top 4 with the possibility of having a second round "home" final against the Crows which would kill any real advantage of finishing in the top 4.

 

[-VC-]

I would have thought NC would have been a bit past playing .... the games become too much of an athletes game.

Also I still maintain that until you cant make it, you still can make it, and if you can make it you can win it.

Bah! As soon as I saw that picture I was going to joke about Craigy putting the boots on.

 

[Alex99]

Win or lose or draw this week it will be a minimum of 3 weeks before we start preparing for next year. Neil Craig will not bring in a bunch of kids into the side if the season is not fully over and he will not expose a whole heap of them to AFL football in a showdown week. Round 19 is against the inform Geelong so once again I doubt he will make many changes because he will not want another huge loss. He may bring one in at the expense of Richard Douglas but nothing dramatic for at least the next 3 weeks.

If we are out of the finals race in 3 weeks time, this is when I would expect him to start looking at the future. Wholesale changes will not happen until the Bulldogs game at AAMI.

 

[KUNG FU]

Rubbish! So we play for picks, develop our kids and scrap the season? I don't care where a team is on the ladder, as long as you are in finals contention your best side should always be on the park and you should always play to win.

In our case, it would be ridiculous to pull the pin on the season. It is such an even competition, I firmly believe that even if we finish outside the top four with a bit of form we are a shot. Playing in Melbourne brings us no fear (remember the Cats home finals will not be in Geelong).

"The long term option" doesn't always work - take St. Kilda for example. Plenty of early draft picks and thus far they have nothing to show for it.

Why do you young players automatically mean that we can't win? Its far from pulling the pin. Its trying something different, spicing things up. The long term development is a bonus IMO.

 

[birdmanptr]

Dont normally read his stuff but a work mate brought it in and said read this.

Excellent article also interesting bit on the side comparing now and back to Ayres hard to argue with them facts if he keeps this up might have to start reading him again

 

[birdmanptr]

Win or lose or draw this week it will be a minimum of 3 weeks before we start preparing for next year. Neil Craig will not bring in a bunch of kids into the side if the season is not fully over and he will not expose a whole heap of them to AFL football in a showdown week. Round 19 is against the inform Geelong so once again I doubt he will make many changes because he will not want another huge loss. He may bring one in at the expense of Richard Douglas but nothing dramatic for at least the next 3 weeks.

If we are out of the finals race in 3 weeks time, this is when I would expect him to start looking at the future. Wholesale changes will not happen until the Bulldogs game at AAMI.

Dont need to bring a lot of kids just a sprinkle we need to find out who out of Meeson,Maric,Sellar,Griffin and Gill can play CHF, FF.Can Hinge hold down a Back Flank and there is Vince If these players are fit they need regular game time this year so we can see if they can play next year and beyond.Not doing this for the rest of the year in my eyes is not good for the future of our club.

 

[Stiffy_18]

Dont normally read his stuff but a work mate brought it in and said read this.

Excellent article also interesting bit on the side comparing now and back to Ayres hard to argue with them facts if he keeps this up might have to start reading him again

What facts might those be?!

Here are a few facts that Rucci HAS overlooked.

• Jonathon Griffin AND John Hinge made their debuts this year
• At the time Ayres ended his tenure at AFC we only has ONE teenagers on our list in Fergus Watts
• In Ayres' last game at helm, the one Rucci is talking about, Rutten and Bock were getting their first games for the season
• In his 3 years at the club Craig has introduced a lot of youth to the list. In fact YOUNG players introduced to the list under Craig are: John Meesen, Kurt Tippett, Jonathon Griffin, Nathan van Berlo, David MacKay, Darren Pfeiffer, Ivan Maric, Chris Knights, Richard Douglas, Bernie Vince, James Sellar, Bryce Campbell, John Hinge and Jason Poplyzia. I have not included Nick Gill and rookies.
• Of the players mentioned above, van Berlo, Knights and Maric are in our best 22
• Of the rest, he has introduced Griffin, Vince, Douglas, Hinge, Porplyzia into AFL football
• Of the players that have played in that last game that Ayres coached, Rutten went from a certainty to be delisted to AA FB. Nathan Bock developed into a player in our best 22. Brent Reilly went on to become a player in our best 18 after stagnating under Ayres. Hentschel developed to the point that he was on target to be a 50 goal forward before injurying his knee.
• He has also introduced Thompson (bit of trade luck there IMHO) into the team and developed him into arguably our best midfielder
• With Craig at helm, Goodwin went up to another level. He rejuvenated McLeod and realised that Nathan Bassett is no FB and as a result the boy has a AA selection and was stiff to miss out on another.

So what I object to is Mr Rucci treating me and many others as an idiot in questioning whether the list has improved in Craig's time here. I am more than comfortable with where our list sits. We have more quality youth than at any time under the guidance of Ayres.

Under Craig we have seen the development of Thompson, Griffin, van Berlo, Maric, Knights, Rutten, Stevens, Reilly, Hentschel, Mattner and Bock. He has also re-energised some of our older players that have looked washed up but are still performing at a high level today.

I think Ayres cops a lot of unwarranted flak on this board and I do have my criticisms of Craig but the list is in far better shape now than it was at the end of 2004 and I am more than comfortable with the improvement that Craig has made to the list. You could argue whether or not these kids could have been bought on quicker but to question whether we are better off now than we were at the end of 2004 is quite laughable.

 

[CaptainDangerfield]

Hehehe, it sounds like a "play kids so you don't beat Port" article. He doesn't want Port to drop a game or to go into the top 4 with the possibility of having a second round "home" final against the Crows which would kill any real advantage of finishing in the top 4.

I reckon there's hell of alot of truth in this statement.

 

[RoosterLad]

Drummond the season ain't over yet, and if we just chuck in a bunch of kids and end up getting smashed (especially in the Showdown) I will be ****ed off and it will be a waste of money buying a season ticket. We are still in the finals race so we still have to try and win games instead of throwing away the season so we can blood some ****ing Redleg players.

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

What facts might those be?!

Here are a few facts that Rucci HAS overlooked.

• Jonathon Griffin AND John Hinge made their debuts this year
• At the time Ayres ended his tenure at AFC we only has ONE teenagers on our list in Fergus Watts
• In Ayres' last game at helm, the one Rucci is talking about, Rutten and Bock were getting their first games for the season
• In his 3 years at the club Craig has introduced a lot of youth to the list. In fact YOUNG players introduced to the list under Craig are: John Meesen, Kurt Tippett, Jonathon Griffin, Nathan van Berlo, David MacKay, Darren Pfeiffer, Ivan Maric, Chris Knights, Richard Douglas, Bernie Vince, James Sellar, Bryce Campbell, John Hinge and Jason Poplyzia. I have not included Nick Gill and rookies.
• Of the players mentioned above, van Berlo, Knights and Maric are in our best 22
• Of the rest, he has introduced Griffin, Vince, Douglas, Hinge, Porplyzia into AFL football
• Of the players that have played in that last game that Ayres coached, Rutten went from a certainty to be delisted to AA FB. Nathan Bock developed into a player in our best 22. Brent Reilly went on to become a player in our best 18 after stagnating under Ayres. Hentschel developed to the point that he was on target to be a 50 goal forward before injurying his knee.
• He has also introduced Thompson (bit of trade luck there IMHO) into the team and developed him into arguably our best midfielder
• With Craig at helm, Goodwin went up to another level. He rejuvenated McLeod and realised that Nathan Bassett is no FB and as a result the boy has a AA selection and was stiff to miss out on another.

So what I object to is Mr Rucci treating me and many others as an idiot in questioning whether the list has improved in Craig's time here. I am more than comfortable with where our list sits. We have more quality youth than at any time under the guidance of Ayres.

Under Craig we have seen the development of Thompson, Griffin, van Berlo, Maric, Knights, Rutten, Stevens, Reilly, Hentschel, Mattner and Bock. He has also re-energised some of our older players that have looked washed up but are still performing at a high level today.

I think Ayres cops a lot of unwarranted flak on this board and I do have my criticisms of Craig but the list is in far better shape now than it was at the end of 2004 and I am more than comfortable with the improvement that Craig has made to the list. You could argue whether or not these kids could have been bought on quicker but to question whether we are better off now than we were at the end of 2004 is quite laughable.

Good post Stiffy. Can't really disagree with any of it.

Our list is in much better shape now than when Craig took over, as we now have a promising bunch of youngsters coming through. Our main problem is the mid-age players, which existed prior to Craig taking over, are probably near the worst in the AFL (due to poor drafting/trading). This stands out when we have injuries. My main disappointment is not trying out a few more of the younger players though, as we need to acelerate their development given the pending retirement of our 30+ age group & lack of stars in the mid-age group.

 

[crowman_23]

Our list is in much better to shape than it was when Ayres left. Craig has done a fantastic job in not only improving the list but turning a side that missed the finals into a top four side.

I also agree with the train of thought that it is too early to tank this season. While we are up against it to make the finals after a few poor performances we are still a real shot and owe it to players, supporters and anyone involved with the club to do the best we can possibly do. We have shown in spurts this season the brilliance this side has the ability to produce, and if we were able to do this come finals time anything could happen. While the chances are slim, anything can happen.

 

[jenny61_99]

It's really good to hear the voice(s) of reason about not throwing away the season. As long as there's a chance we MUST field our best available team. No ands, ifs or buts.

 

[Blind Fred]

Thanks for the level-headed and thoughtful post, Stiffy. A list is a list - not a team of 22 - and if Rucci and others can't see that Adelaide now has a better LIST than it did this time three years ago, they are blind (not me!). Back then we very few kids to pin our hopes on but over the past couple of drafts we have at least injected some talented kids to the mix. Granted, not many have broken into the AFL, but we have played matches this season with Knights, van Berlo, Griffin, Vince, Porplyzia and Douglas in the same team. Not many blokes have been overlooked - other young (or new) players on the list like Gill, Campbell, Sellar, Pfeiffer, Meesen, Maric (first half of season), Mackay, Hinge, Mcintyre and Tippett have been injured and if they had been fit I'm sure we would have seen some in this group get some games. The good news is that now we actually have some other players fit and playing good footy in the SANFL like Gill, Pfeiffer, Campbell and Meesen, and hopefully Vince back this weekend. So even if we keep striving for the finals a couple in this group may earn selection anyway. As for the finals, it's way too early to give up. My maths shows that 11 wins could possibly be enough to get us in (if Bulldogs only win two and St Kilda 3). And 13 wins will probably get us 5th or 6th spot and a home final.

 

[Phhht]

What facts might those be?!

Here are a few facts that Rucci HAS overlooked.

• Jonathon Griffin AND John Hinge made their debuts this year
• At the time Ayres ended his tenure at AFC we only has ONE teenagers on our list in Fergus Watts
• In Ayres' last game at helm, the one Rucci is talking about, Rutten and Bock were getting their first games for the season
• In his 3 years at the club Craig has introduced a lot of youth to the list. In fact YOUNG players introduced to the list under Craig are: John Meesen, Kurt Tippett, Jonathon Griffin, Nathan van Berlo, David MacKay, Darren Pfeiffer, Ivan Maric, Chris Knights, Richard Douglas, Bernie Vince, James Sellar, Bryce Campbell, John Hinge and Jason Poplyzia. I have not included Nick Gill and rookies.
• Of the players mentioned above, van Berlo, Knights and Maric are in our best 22
• Of the rest, he has introduced Griffin, Vince, Douglas, Hinge, Porplyzia into AFL football
• Of the players that have played in that last game that Ayres coached, Rutten went from a certainty to be delisted to AA FB. Nathan Bock developed into a player in our best 22. Brent Reilly went on to become a player in our best 18 after stagnating under Ayres. Hentschel developed to the point that he was on target to be a 50 goal forward before injurying his knee.
• He has also introduced Thompson (bit of trade luck there IMHO) into the team and developed him into arguably our best midfielder
• With Craig at helm, Goodwin went up to another level. He rejuvenated McLeod and realised that Nathan Bassett is no FB and as a result the boy has a AA selection and was stiff to miss out on another.

So what I object to is Mr Rucci treating me and many others as an idiot in questioning whether the list has improved in Craig's time here. I am more than comfortable with where our list sits. We have more quality youth than at any time under the guidance of Ayres.

Under Craig we have seen the development of Thompson, Griffin, van Berlo, Maric, Knights, Rutten, Stevens, Reilly, Hentschel, Mattner and Bock. He has also re-energised some of our older players that have looked washed up but are still performing at a high level today.

I think Ayres cops a lot of unwarranted flak on this board and I do have my criticisms of Craig but the list is in far better shape now than it was at the end of 2004 and I am more than comfortable with the improvement that Craig has made to the list. You could argue whether or not these kids could have been bought on quicker but to question whether we are better off now than we were at the end of 2004 is quite laughable.

Some interesting points that you make Stiffy, many valid. I wonder how you would compare the lists of younger players in 2004 to your current youngsters that you have listed above?

At the time of Ayres deciding to fall on his sword (mid 2004) here is a list of some of the younger guys on your list

Watts 18 -> 19yo
Bock 21yo
Johncock 21yo
Mattner 21 -> 22yo
Reilly 20 -> 21yo
Rutten 21yo
Hentschell 21yo
Skipworth 21yo
Stevens 22yo
McGregor 23yo
Shirley 24yo
Stenglein 24yo
Ladhams 23 -> 24yo
Begley 24yo
....
even Hudson who although was 25yo he was a late bloomer shall we say.

Its not a bad list and probably is comparable to what you currently have - youngsters wise. Whilst with the aid of hindsight you could say a few of them 'weren't quality' (Skipworth, Begley as examples) at the time they probably showed promise not too dissimilar to some of your current group. I know you will say that Ayres didn't 'develop' some players like Rutten, Reilly and Bock but I think it might be a tad unfair on Ayres. If he had time we aren't sure that those guys wouldn't have developed under his tutelage. And right now there seems to be debate amongst you Crowies whether NC isn't doing exactly the same thing with guys like Meesen/Pfeiffer/Douglas/Campbell etc.

Just food for thought, I know most will howl this down and I dont for 1 second think that Ayres should have been retained but I do think he was better than what a lot of people give him credit for and his list management wasn't that bad.

Hell if things had of turned out a little better and Ryan Fitzgerald hadn't broken down he may have still been at Adelaide.....well that might be pushing it a bit

 

[CrowHop]

Some interesting points that you make Stiffy, many valid. I wonder how you would compare the lists of younger players in 2004 to your current youngsters that you have listed above?

At the time of Ayres deciding to fall on his sword (mid 2004) here is a list of some of the younger guys on your list

Watts 18 -> 19yo
Bock 21yo
Johncock 21yo
Mattner 21 -> 22yo
Reilly 20 -> 21yo
Rutten 21yo
Hentschell 21yo
Skipworth 21yo
Stevens 22yo
McGregor 23yo
Shirley 24yo
Stenglein 24yo
Ladhams 23 -> 24yo
Begley 24yo
....
even Hudson who although was 25yo he was a late bloomer shall we say.

Its not a bad list and probably is comparable to what you currently have - youngsters wise. Whilst with the aid of hindsight you could say a few of them 'weren't quality' (Skipworth, Begley as examples) at the time they probably showed promise not too dissimilar to some of your current group. I know you will say that Ayres didn't 'develop' some players like Rutten, Reilly and Bock but I think it might be a tad unfair on Ayres. If he had time we aren't sure that those guys wouldn't have developed under his tutelage. And right now there seems to be debate amongst you Crowies whether NC isn't doing exactly the same thing with guys like Meesen/Pfeiffer/Douglas/Campbell etc.

Just food for thought, I know most will howl this down and I dont for 1 second think that Ayres should have been retained but I do think he was better than what a lot of people give him credit for and his list management wasn't that bad.

Hell if things had of turned out a little better and Ryan Fitzgerald hadn't broken down he may have still been at Adelaide.....well that might be pushing it a bit

I wont howl it down, thats a good post.

 

[Crow-mo]

Agree. Phhht that was pretty persuasive.

 

[crowsarethebest]

Some interesting points that you make Stiffy, many valid. I wonder how you would compare the lists of younger players in 2004 to your current youngsters that you have listed above?

At the time of Ayres deciding to fall on his sword (mid 2004) here is a list of some of the younger guys on your list

Watts 18 -> 19yo
Bock 21yo
Johncock 21yo
Mattner 21 -> 22yo
Reilly 20 -> 21yo
Rutten 21yo
Hentschell 21yo
Skipworth 21yo
Stevens 22yo
McGregor 23yo
Shirley 24yo
Stenglein 24yo
Ladhams 23 -> 24yo
Begley 24yo
....
even Hudson who although was 25yo he was a late bloomer shall we say.

Its not a bad list and probably is comparable to what you currently have - youngsters wise. Whilst with the aid of hindsight you could say a few of them 'weren't quality' (Skipworth, Begley as examples) at the time they probably showed promise not too dissimilar to some of your current group. I know you will say that Ayres didn't 'develop' some players like Rutten, Reilly and Bock but I think it might be a tad unfair on Ayres. If he had time we aren't sure that those guys wouldn't have developed under his tutelage. And right now there seems to be debate amongst you Crowies whether NC isn't doing exactly the same thing with guys like Meesen/Pfeiffer/Douglas/Campbell etc.

Just food for thought, I know most will howl this down and I dont for 1 second think that Ayres should have been retained but I do think he was better than what a lot of people give him credit for and his list management wasn't that bad.

Hell if things had of turned out a little better and Ryan Fitzgerald hadn't broken down he may have still been at Adelaide.....well that might be pushing it a bit

Good post

 

[ThePeckers]

Throw the dice, but don't throw away the season. We still have a chance. This year is so close that if there were any chance of an 8th place side winning the premiership it would be this year.

 

[CrowHop]

Throw the dice, but don't throw away the season. We still have a chance. This year is so close that if there were any chance of an 8th place side winning the premiership it would be this year.

Why do we need to even roll the dice ? That would mean we're making a chancey decision. Lets just reward guys for quality SANFL form. Gill and Campbell fit the bill.

 

[ThePeckers]

Why do we need to even roll the dice ? That would mean we're making a chancey decision. Lets just reward guys for quality SANFL form. Gill and Campbell fit the bill.

Well it is rolling the dice that they have never played an AFL game before. But I can't see it being any worse then having Perrie play.