News Cyril and Shannyn Rioli speak to Caro - link to club statement in page 8

[Hawthorn23]

Some further developments to the story in the video below:

Mod edit: it’s a must watch for anyone reading this thread.

 

[killerspud]

Super highlight reel and super player . Nobody has doubted that especially me but his final 2 seasons he played a total of 11 games of football. He was done as a player and he acknowledged that when he retired .

You can say whatever you want - It's not true and you are now speaking bullshit to denigrate a champion - a shame on you...a total and complete shame


Cyril Rioli revolutionised the game - I remember we had Monday morning meetings for Talking Footy and Wayne Carey was raving about a game Cyril played then someone quietly mention he only have 10 possessions to which Duck rightly pointed out - well those 10 possessions had more influence on the game than anything else - there are blokes who could have 45 touches and wouldn't impact a game like that.

But sure you sprout your nonsense. It would affect your standing around here - you never had much to begin with

 

[Brishawk]

Lewis was on AFL360 and talking about the 2013 incident. Video should be halfway down the page

‘I was drowning inside’: Betts’ emotional racism plea

‘I was drowning inside’: Betts’ emotional racism plea

www.foxsports.com.au

So basically the club had no requirement to escalate up and the effect of this incident on other Indigenous players at the club wasn’t considered.

It’s almost like the club wasn’t prepared for this to happen. If only it had been reported up, the club might have been able to implement so education and standards around how to deal with this, which they could have developed in consultation with the Indigenous players. A lost opportunity.

 

[SJT76]

So basically the club had no requirement to escalate up and the effect of this incident on other Indigenous players at the club wasn’t considered.

It’s almost like the club wasn’t prepared for this to happen. If only it had been reported up, the club might have been able to implement so education and standards around how to deal with this, which they could have developed in consultation with the Indigenous players. A lost opportunity.

Yes, but it can be sensitive. If the player didn’t want it reported - didn’t want to be seen as a ‘trouble-maker’, would reporting it up have lessened the likelihood of that or other players raising issues in the future?

Retaliation for ‘snitching’ is real in many workplaces.

I think the leadership group should receive training on how to receive and respond to these kinds of issues. Watching Lewis, he was doing the best he could with common sense, but didn’t have guidance.

 

[Randy Campbell]

We seem to have been blissfully ignorant.
Very disappointing.

 

[William Wonka]

So we have:
The booing of Goodes by an AFL crowd.
A player using a racial slur almost a decade ago.

And the president of our club treating the wife of a club champion like shes some homeless meff whore.

One of these things is not like the others.

If not for Kennett then Cyril could well have been discussing any and all other issues with Mitch after kicking the winning goal for us on Saturday rather than talking to Caro.

**** you Jeff, get the hell out of our club.

 

[checkraiseulite]

Yes, but it can be sensitive. If the player didn’t want it reported - didn’t want to be seen as a ‘trouble-maker’, would reporting it up have lessened the likelihood of that or other players raising issues in the future?

Retaliation for ‘snitching’ is real in many workplaces.

I think the leadership group should receive training on how to receive and respond to these kinds of issues. Watching Lewis, he was doing the best he could with common sense, but didn’t have guidance.

yes at the end of the day this was a stupid racist and completely unacceptable comment made on a footy trip. an apology was offered and - we are told - accepted following the intervention of senior players (who are trained footballers and not HR).

not sure what else could have been done at that time - though it is understandable cyril viewing it as an unacceptable response.

it was open to him to take it to HR or senior management if he felt that the apology was not sufficient and that player needed to face consequences for his actions. as it transpires he did not even take it to the leadership group of the club and it’s hard to see that people were aware at that time how much it had hurt him which is very sad.

you would hope one of the things the indigenous affairs guys are doing is to encourage people to communicate what is troubling them or what they think needs to change.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

We seem to have been blissfully ignorant.
Very disappointing.

Lots of clubs were back then, so I can’t hang them for it, but the biggest thing for mine now is that Cyril has uncovered this period of time and how it’s affected him and snowballed in his mind, and while almost everyone concedes that all clubs have these skeletons in their closets and that the Goodes situation wasn’t handled well we’ve instead decided to push back against the Riolis claims and play a game of plausible deniability until such time as we uncover something truly horrible and then have to ask for forgiveness.

Whoever is making the decisions in the board room right now is almost clueless, because this isn’t going away with a couple of bland explainers and a promise to look forward.

Rip the band aid off, declare that what happened was poor, how we responded wasnt good enough, and that along with Brady Grey and our current Indigenous players we will make it a priority to improve cultural awareness and create a more inclusive and safe club for all Indigenous players, past, present and future.

Lastly, to the one with the golliwogs and the “new arrivals” commentary, none of this can be done without more media blowback when he’s still sitting in the presidents seat. He simply must resign if the club wants some clear air and a chance to reconfigure how it is perceived.

 

[checkraiseulite]

So we have:
The booing of Goodes by an AFL crowd.
A player using a racial slur almost a decade ago.

And the president of our club treating the wife of a club champion like shes some homeless meff whore.

One of these things is not like the others.

If not for Kennett then Cyril could well have been discussing any and all other issues with Mitch after kicking the winning goal for us on Saturday rather than talking to Caro.

fu** you Jeff, get the hell out of our club.

imagine buddy is still at the club - and we are paying him $10m over 11 years instead of sydney.

jeff says to jesinta - in a way that makes it clear he is joking - aren’t we paying lance enough money to buy you jeans without holes in them? do you want some coin to sew up those holes?

would that be a joke that should cost him his job?

is that or a similar context more likely than some pointed and malicious comment about her being aboriginal and legitimately needing him to buy her clothes?

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

imagine buddy is still at the club - and we are paying him $10m over 11 years instead of sydney.

jeff says to jesinta - aren’t we paying lance enough money to buy you jeans without holes in them? do you want some coin to sew up those holes?

would that be a joke that should cost him his job?

is that or a similar context more likely than some pointed and malicious comment about her being aboriginal and legitimately needing him to buy her clothes?

Is Jesinta indigenous?

If not, your point is a fail.

 

[Bugs1977]

imagine buddy is still at the club - and we are paying him $10m over 11 years instead of sydney.

jeff says to jesinta - aren’t we paying lance enough money to buy you jeans without holes in them? do you want some coin to sew up those holes?

would that be a joke that should cost him his job?

is that or a similar context more likely than some pointed and malicious comment about her being aboriginal and legitimately needing him to buy her clothes?

 

[checkraiseulite]

Is Jesinta indigenous?

If not, your point is a fail.

i don’t think so but i’m not sure that’s relevant in terms of the decision to make the joke and the intent behind it (it is obviously relevant to the aftermath given her reaction to it). i also don’t know whether she grew up poor on hand me downs from vinnies and might have been sensitive to a joke of that type.

i think it’s racist to assume an aboriginal person is more likely to take offence and view themselves as poor and in need of charity.

i don’t think it was reasonably foreseeable for her to react as she did.

when she did become offended he should have listened to how she felt, acknowledged it and told her he would be aware of those issues and how an otherwise innocent joke might be misconstrued in future.

 

[chopflop]

So basically the club had no requirement to escalate up and the effect of this incident on other Indigenous players at the club wasn’t considered.

It’s almost like the club wasn’t prepared for this to happen. If only it had been reported up, the club might have been able to implement so education and standards around how to deal with this, which they could have developed in consultation with the Indigenous players. A lost opportunity.

Watching the interview it was a fail by Jordan. Dropped the ball. You can't do handshakes and pretend we are all good on a footy trip because the Indigenous player (victim of racial abuse) would feel huge pressure to just suck it up and not ruin the trip.

This is exactly what Cyril talked about in the article ... Having to be a 'people pleaser' and not make it too uncomfortable for the white folk. This end of season trip plays straight into that narrative - bury the hatchet, a few words and it's all good we are mates again.

Jordan said the player never spoke of it again and is now all good. We don't know that Jordan because you didn't report it. That was the chance for the leaders to recognise 'hey, we have an issue here' let's get proactive and make sure we are here in a "real way" for our Aboriginal mates. Let's get some proper education happening at the club and some support from (non-players) professionals to make sure the player actually felt they were in a safe environment.

Instead, the 'boys' on their end of season bender handled it like it was a school yard squabble. It wasn't.

 

[rjslcM]

Stop. Isolating. One. Incident.

“Is that event enough to lose a job?”
“Is that enough for Cyril’s feelings to be valid?”

Maybe or maybe not! But it wasn’t one event!

Kennett has shown many times over that he’s not fit to lead on inclusivity - not simply through the jeans comment.

Cyril’s felt unsupported many times over which tipped him over the edge - he didn’t leave due to the jeans comment alone.

Please imagine what it would be like to feel like an outsider amongst your colleagues, lose trust in your colleagues over and over again due to their actions and ask yourself if you would want to keep working there.

Better yet, read through the posts in the thread before posting because we’ve gone back at forth on this point already - so instead of debating it and saying something again - read and educate yourself first.

 

[rjslcM]

would that be a joke that should cost him his job?

If he has a history of making racist comments or actions and despite issuing an ‘apologies’, he has shown no willingness to actually change and/or has shown no change in behaviour over time; yes.

 

[flinchfree]

You've basically dismissed everything he said as an overreaction from other issues not the club

So yeah you are saying you don't believe him and that you know better what really happened from the outside

Not at all am I dismissing what happened at the Club.
Clearly you are not reading what I'm putting down.

I HAVE questioned the expectation that when things did go wrong, the type of change that might have been expected from the Club under the circumstances.

The Club hierarchy or even Player Leadership NEVER knew about the player using the negative name calling in 2013.
How is it possible they should have known to INCREASE aboriginal support systems post that occurance while being unaware of the event that caused distress?

Regarding Cyril being less than impressed with the messaging and imaging the Club used to suggest we were supporters of change in the community towards Aboriginal affairs in general society - that we were all show and no go, that is hardly surprising.
The major job description of this sporting Club is to perform that role. Sporting achievement.
The Club and its staff are not funded to be major players in the action of moving societal behavior through programs of change, and have not been charged to do so by the AFL. We take on some of that voice and activity voluntarily, in any spare time that can be made by players and Club appointees, and it is the bit part role you might expect of professional sportsmen.
I believe in the hearts and minds of many at HFC including Clarko and the board, we likely saw ourselves as LEADERS in that space in being publicly vocal and transparent in our messaging of support for Indigenous peoples.
But it was always a secondary thought to what the Club was looking to achieve, which is sporting success.

If you are of the opinon that we should be more than that, that's fine, I don't disagree.
But it would need to be codified in our professional plans for the organisation as such, and funding diverted or created to staff people for just that mission. I believe it's ludicrous to retrospectively thrash the Club for not being more than it was at the time.
I don't remember too many on here in those previous years making threads about such required activity and pushing for that change at the Club.
Yet somehow the Club needed to be presciently better than the rest of society and sporting organizations or it gets a smashing?

To Cyril's complaint that EVEN Clarko was imperfect for having commented that the idigenous players were sitting together, I reckon that's a small and unfair observation and reveal. People are never perfect, but you'd be hard pressed to find a man that in both message AND action tried harder than Clarko to get it right in terms of treatment of the aboriginal lads playing at the Club.
Do you think other players should have called Clarko out for saying it, or taken the matter to management?
Again, the Club's senior employees and board never even knew of it, how can they be held responsible for it or have been expected to implement any change because of it?

Hawthorn supporters villafied Goodes, not the Club.
I remember reading all the trash threads on here at the time about it and various supporters claiming the right to boo Adam for his play and insisting it wasn't racial. It was crap then and it's crap now.
But ironically, it's the moment I hold the Club MOST responsible for in not seeking change and making a public stance on behalf of Goodes.

Senior Hawthorn people would have known undboubtedly what was behind some of the targeted abuse but were too scared to risk creating rifts between itself and it's supporter base. There was likely a quick mental calculation though probably unspoken that we simply couldn't afford to be publicly too far out and ahead of the rest of the AFL and society and risk financial penalty and backlash.
It happened here in the NFL with Kapernick. Supporters stayed away from games if members of their teams kneeled during the anthem, and there was significan't blowback to ownership. It's why many owners were hoping and tried to stifle the activity, and why the one's who didn't received praise from black players within their organizations.

We could have. WE SHOULD HAVE. Been leaders in that time. In that moment. In action it would have meant so much more to support the motifs and slogans and the odd community coaching clinics we had largely limited our activity to.


And in the end, Jeff K was the asteroid sized straw from which we could not recover our relationship with Cyril. With Shannyn.
IMO it wasn't the kind of moment that should have been unrecoverable from, and it seems as though the Club jumped in every direction including reaching out to family members of the Riolis to mediate and help mend the ugly rift.
And even then, it seems we were wrong in Shannyn's eyes. Sometimes culturally you just don't get it, unless you have those around you who can explain and want to act in good faith.
So in that moment, we had a chance to DO something that might have helped.
Jeff and the Club needed to ask Cyril and Shannyn if they would bring someone in who could help everyone understand better what is clearly very different avenues of understanding. The HFC needed to commit to undergo cultural training for all it's emplyees to be better armed on travelling a united path.
But Jeff failed the moment, and those under/around him were not strong enough to demand more. Demand better.

I don't at all dismiss Cyril, or the failures of the Club.
But they all need to be read in context, and blame only where blame is due.

Again, IMO, Cyril suffered far more from societal failure than stricly and overtly Hawthorn Football Club failure.
But both happened, and both need to be accounted for.
Just like Will Smith and being a black man in the United States.

 

[Tassie Cryptik]

imagine buddy is still at the club - and we are paying him $10m over 11 years instead of sydney.

jeff says to jesinta - in a way that makes it clear he is joking - aren’t we paying lance enough money to buy you jeans without holes in them? do you want some coin to sew up those holes?

would that be a joke that should cost him his job?

is that or a similar context more likely than some pointed and malicious comment about her being aboriginal and legitimately needing him to buy her clothes?

Dig up.
Give up.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

i think it’s racist to assume an aboriginal person is more likely to take offence and view themselves as poor and in need of charity.

You’re so far off base here.

It’s not about Shannyn thinking she needs charity, it’s about Jeff making suggestions that she needs it, because that is common trope towards colored people around the world.

 

[Blackhawk42]

Of course it was racially motivated.

Seriously get a grip.

He dared to speak out.

I mean at the start of the whole thing after a 5 minute outrage subsided about an aboriginal man having to put up with that.

In a nano second it was turned around and became “What about the poor girl” “Goodes picked on her” that was the overriding theme, not the fact that for 200 years our First Nations people have had to put up with this shit and enough is enough.

Then it became this whole “ A black man picked on a white girl” and it went from there.

Was it racially motivated?

Damn right it was.

Goodes was getting booed by a small minority for his actions on the field as a player.
Goodes was then getting booed due to a mixture of tall poppy syndrome and it being the 'hip' thing to do at games he was a part of.
Goodes getting booed for being indigenous was from a small, racist and highly disturbing group who have no place attending out great game.

Unfortunately all of these reasons, in the eyes of Adam Goodes, we're racially motivated plain and simple. It isn't up to us to tell HIM whether it was or wasn't. The most unfortunate outcome was that for anybody part of the first two examples I mentioned, Goodes viewed them as part of the third horrific group and subsequently decided to leave the game. If all of us involved in the first two groups had realised what we were doing to an innocent human being at that point and stopped with the crap then perhaps he wouldn't have been lost to the game.

 

[checkraiseulite]

You’re so far off base here.

It’s not about Shannyn thinking she needs charity, it’s about Jeff making suggestions that she needs it, because that is common trope towards colored people around the world.

i think this is where we see things differently.

if he would have made the same joke to someone non-indigineous (in which case it would have been fine) but shouldn’t have made it to shannyn (because she is indigenous) how is he making a suggestion she needs it?

 

[Mojo]

We seem to have been blissfully ignorant.
Very disappointing.

Probably better being guilty of ignorance rather than guilty of knowing and not doing anything about it, right?

 

[Brishawk]

Watching the interview it was a fail by Jordan. Dropped the ball. You can't do handshakes and pretend we are all good on a footy trip because the Indigenous player (victim of racial abuse) would feel huge pressure to just suck it up and not ruin the trip.

This is exactly what Cyril talked about in the article ... Having to be a 'people pleaser' and not make it too uncomfortable for the white folk. This end of season trip plays straight into that narrative - bury the hatchet, a few words and it's all good we are mates again.

Jordan said the player never spoke of it again and is now all good. We don't know that Jordan because you didn't report it. That was the chance for the leaders to recognise 'hey, we have an issue here' let's get proactive and make sure we are here in a "real way" for our Aboriginal mates. Let's get some proper education happening at the club and some support from (non-players) professionals to make sure the player actually felt they were in a safe environment.

Instead, the 'boys' on their end of season bender handled it like it was a school yard squabble. It wasn't.

I don’t think it is that helpful to single out Jordan here in the sense that I don’t think the result would have been different whoever from the club was there, Burgoyne aside. The target of the rioli’s story is the club, not all the individuals.

 

[mcnulty]

i think this is where we see things differently.

if he would have made the same joke to someone non-indigineous (in which case it would have been fine) but shouldn’t have made it to shannyn (because she is indigenous) how is he making a suggestion she needs it?

The jeans incident, in isolation, is a complete nothing burger. The issue seems to be with Kennetts history and how he handled the aftermath. Ok.

Hodge and Lewis have put forward their versions of the 2013 incident which, whilst extremely regrettable, seems to have been dealt with to the satisfaction of the offended player at the time.

Theres always room for improvement, and subsequent breakdown in relationship is the saddest thing here, but I get the feeling Hodge and Lewis are genuinely surprised by this- that is, they weren’t aware of the depth of Rioli’s feeling. Was the club?

Anyway, let’s have a review and let the chips fall as they may. I’ll trust the outcome of that more than I trust anything to come off Wilson’s keyboard.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Goodes was getting booed by a small minority for his actions on the field as a player.
Goodes was then getting booed due to a mixture of tall poppy syndrome and it being the 'hip' thing to do at games he was a part of.
Goodes getting booed for being indigenous was from a small, racist and highly disturbing group who have no place attending out great game.

Unfortunately all of these reasons, in the eyes of Adam Goodes, we're racially motivated plain and simple. It isn't up to us to tell HIM whether it was or wasn't. The most unfortunate outcome was that for anybody part of the first two examples I mentioned, Goodes viewed them as part of the third horrific group and subsequently decided to leave the game. If all of us involved in the first two groups had realised what we were doing to an innocent human being at that point and stopped with the crap then perhaps he wouldn't have been lost to the game.

I don’t really want to go over the whole Goodes situation again and I don’t think you meant it to come across this way but I don’t like that you seem to be suggesting that it was just Adam Goodes feeling this way(this was a widespread feeling across numerous communities), and that it was a small number of people that were racially motivated.
I moderated the threads back then and there was some pretty racist shit being posted and if this current thread has taught me anything there’s a whole bunch of people who are willfully ignorant to racist tropes directed to Indigenous peoples, a heap who are just so completely oblivious to what casual and subtle racism is to Indigenous Australians, and a whole bunch of posters who just refuse to acknowledge that racism(outward or otherwise) could be a reason for some behaviors towards First Nations people.

 

[Brishawk]

Probably better being guilty of ignorance rather than guilty of knowing and not doing anything about it, right?

I think ‘blissfully ignorant’ is Jeff’s motto…

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

i think this is where we see things differently.

if he would have made the same joke to someone non-indigineous (in which case it would have been fine) but shouldn’t have made it to shannyn (because she is indigenous) how is he making a suggestion she needs it?

Because it’s not an off the cuff quip that thousands of Indigenous Australians haven’t already heard in many guises to remind them that they’re different, that they’re “not like us”.

You’re right, this is exactly where we differ. I can recognise what a racist trope is, while you seemingly cannot.


It’s for this reason that I feel blessed to have had an Indigenous partner for so long, because I’m not blind to casual racism or racist tropes.

I think I’ve asked you to do this before, but go watch the docomentary “the Australian Dream” even if you still choose to think Goodes was booed for diving, you’ll at least be given the history and background of why First Nations people can be sensitive to so many of these off the cuff comments.