Current Disappearance of 3yo William Tyrrell Pt 2 * Coroners Inquiry CANCELLED!

[Kurve]

Continued from PART 1

Criminal charges:

• Apprehended Violence Orders on both (AVOs)
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster mother *Not Guilty
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster father *Not Guilty
• 2 x charges of assault against a child on former foster mother *Guilty
• 1 x charge of assault against a child on former foster father *Not Guilty
• Stalking &/or Intimidation on both *Guilty
• Dummy bidding real estate fraud *Guilty

TIMELINE

Where's William Tyrrell? - The Ch 10 podcast (under Coroner's subpoena)

Operation Arkstone

Please type names out in full for those who are not covered by suppression orders.

For those covered by suppression orders, please use the following to indicate:

FM - Foster Mother
FF - Foster Father
FGM - Foster Grandmother
FD - Foster Daughter
FPs - Foster Parents

Up to you if you wish to refer to them as former fosters but please write it in full, strictly using the above. No deviations.

Other initials posters will use informally but should not are:

BCR - Batar Creek Road
FA - Frank Abbott
MW - Michelle White
SFR - Strike Force Rosann
AMS - Anne Maree Sharpley
CCR - Cobb and Co Road
GO - Geoff Owens
One even reduced bike riding to - BR
COG - Consciousness of guilt. Like WHO KNEW?

 

[Angry Red Bull]

Does Box realise the irony in his rhetoric? He is complaining about all the secrecy, and questions whether it is being used in the right way. But that very secrecy is protecting the people he is defending! Who is being protected here? Not the police - they are doing their job, or trying to. They have nothing to lose by lifting the veil of secrecy and revealing everything they know. Not William's bio parents - everyone knows who they are now. Not William's sister - any more - she has now been moved to a safe situation. Certainly not William. Who are the only people being protected by secrecy, Dan?

He is imo prostituting himself to be sure of having FPs co-operation for the story. Journalistic integrity out the window

 

[Angry Red Bull]

It's a coronial inquest. It's not a criminal trial. It is concerned only with establishing the cause and circumstances of death. All that other stuff is up to the police to prove.

In my view you only need to prove a dead body was there..the COGS lies about everything else proves perverting course of justice

We habitually don't accept cadaver evidence preferring forensics. A few cases in USA have accepted cadaver evidence for conviction.

if there is a case where you could it would be this one. Why? Because you have identified the site FIRST by her testimony and Truck driver. The chance then of a random mistake for cadaver is eliminated on that specificity

 

[31550]

In my view you only need to prove a dead body was there..the COGS lies about everything else proves perverting course of justice

We habitually don't accept cadaver evidence preferring forensics. A few cases in USA have accepted cadaver evidence for conviction.

if there is a case where you could it would be this one. Why? Because you have identified the site FIRST by her testimony and Truck driver. The chance then of a random mistake for cadaver is eliminated on that specificity

I'm not convinced they are going down the cadaver route. But it might work. It's not considered infallible evidence in Australia. However, the coroner works on balance of probability , not "beyond reasonable doubt", so a cadaver hit might support the police theory enough to convince the coroner to find this way. Whereas, in a criminal court it might not be enough to secure a conviction.

 

[LRitz]

She’s cut it very, very fine.

What did she do between 9:37am and 10:10am?

Agree. Why would she have to put time pressure on herself? Why did she go and see neighbour AM if she still had to do a drive.
I still think William was missing way before 10:00.

Again, all eyes on the FM. What about the FF.

I think it is possible he left (with or without William) around 8:00 just after neighbours Crabb left for their routine morning exercise ( I recall some where it was referred to that they went out like clockwork). The other neighbour is away and everyone knows this. So FF would have been pretty secure that no one would see hime leave and drive into the state forest. We still have the missing 10 to 15 minutes of FF drive after he was seen on CCTV and before he reaches Lakewood.

Why be so worried about the shoes. If they were still at the back door just say he had so much energy he just ran to the front of the house barefoot. Or say - I thought he had his shoes on but must have been mistaken.

FPs were pretty bolshy about daring the police to do their digs. IMO they both know where William is and that was not the place.

Two possible reasons for the drive IMO. FM is hiding Williams body. Or she sees something in the house that is incriminating that FPs overlooked. What about something IT, like a second memory card for the camera that she thought could be discovered if the police had locked the house down as a crime scene.

Will be so interesting to hear from the truck driver. I wonder if he says he "acknowledged" FM.

All of the above IMO only. A bit jumbled and just catching up on excellent previous posts.
Thanks to all for updates and summary of Coroners Court

 

[Angry Red Bull]

I'm not convinced they are going down the cadaver route. But it might work. It's not considered infallible evidence in Australia. However, the coroner works on balance of probability , not "beyond reasonable doubt", so a cadaver hit might support the police theory enough to convince the coroner to find this way. Whereas, in a criminal court it might not be enough to secure a conviction.

Look at Bfew post 4491 agenda for today. Yes includes searches and cadaver indications. That is exactly the path they are taking

 

[31550]

PSA (request at least)
Since the coronial inquest is now focussed on the theory that William died at FGM property after 9:37 and was removed by FM, and there are no proposed witnesses to refute the authenticity of the photographs, and there is nothing alleged by the police concerning the photographs, ...
Can we please just accept that the police and the coroner accept the 9:37 photographs as genuine proof-of-life and there will be no further challenge as to their authenticity?
So, it really doesn't help discussing any theory that William left the property or died before 9:37am.

 

[31550]

Look at Bfew post 4491 agenda for today. Yes includes searches and cadaver indications. That is exactly the path they are taking

Among other things. If they can pinpoint the exact time the truck driver saw the FGM car then that will be a significant piece of evidence. Any earlier than 10:30 incriminates FM.

 

[Angry Red Bull]

Among other things. If they can pinpoint the exact time the truck driver saw the FGM car then that will be a significant piece of evidence. Any earlier than 10:30 incriminates FM.

She could argue that she didn't alert AMS until after she went looking so I don't think it's as tight for smoking gun....though logical to alert neighbours first agree

I think her being there being seen there, and cadaver indications there are very persuasive to W being there.

It's not often you have dead bodies in random locations

 

[stormbird]

They are testing the theory, not setting out to prove it. The facts could well eliminate the theory (or in no way support it) and is why they won't accept "opinion" from the police.

For me, if the truck driver has only seen the car, then they have bugger all. I've always felt a panicked drive is perfectly feasible. She went in the most isolated direction because that would be the most worrying if that's where he had headed. She admitted she drove and didn't try to hide it. The distance she drove might be illogical, but people do illogical stuff under extreme stress. The police have tried to break her with bluffing and haven't been able to.

If the truck driver saw her out of the car then that would be more incriminating. If he saw any digging implement, then very different story.

I'm thinking the police case against FM and their search focus on the Cobb & Co Rd area would make more sense if the truck driver saw FM on a different day (hypothetically, returning later to move William's remains).

 

[Angry Red Bull]

Among other things. If they can pinpoint the exact time the truck driver saw the FGM car then that will be a significant piece of evidence. Any earlier than 10:30 incriminates FM.

I think they must have corralled all the phone data pings and methodically eliminated them to find the truck driver. Soooo they already know time i'd say.

 

[truecrimepath]

She’s very confident of where he won’t be found, isn’t she.

If she’s moved him from that area or had him moved from that area, she has done that fairly quickly. IMO

I wonder, how could she have moved William from the original site?

Did she have help? And where is he now? That’s the bigger question.

If he was abducted, he may have been buried around there. How would she have known he would not be found there?

I think he was never there. Red Herring swallowed by police hook line and sinker.

 

[Kurve]

I think he was never there. Red Herring swallowed by police hook line and sinker.

For William to never have been there, the whole family would have to be in on it including the foster grandmother and the foster daughter.

It's not possible to maintain that lie.

 

[Kurve]

Why did you say this? I am inferring the persecution of Bill Spedding was malicious. I think the phone call to him that morning was also a red flag.

That Bill Spedding had an alibi is the very big difference between him and the foster mother.

Spedding's alibi went a long way to proving a malicious prosecution.

 

[truecrimepath]

For William to never have been there, the whole family would have to be in on it including the foster grandmother and the foster daughter.

It's not possible to maintain that lie.

The foster daughter was 4 years old. I am not convinced her testimony is that reliable. When I saw that the arrival time was between 8.30pm and 9 pm the night before according to the four year old foster daughter, I suspected she had been coached. No pre-schooler is going to give a time of arrival like that. Red flag.

It all gets back to what she exactly said on the first day and how she was asked. If she was coached and felt intimidated then anything is possible. If William died in his sleep, she may not even know.

 

[LRitz]

There was a coronial order made way back in Sep 2019 that the photos be examined by a forensic expert.
Do you really think that NSWPF would not follow a coronial order?

Coroner orders urgent forensic examination of last known photograph of William Tyrrell​

An IT expert has been ordered to undertake an urgent forensic examination of the last known photograph of William Tyrrell over doubts as to when the picture - a vital clue - was actually taken.

https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/coroner-orders-urgent-forensic-examination-of-last-known-photograph-of-william-tyrrell/news-story/fa7d1448b9505cc2c62e2cd1554bb443?amp

So in 2019 it was urgent? This is 5 years later!

It would have been good to hear from an IT guy in court, to explain in simple terms how they came to these conclusions. EXIF data, shadows ....petunias....

Maybe the first "forensic expert" was asked to correct the time. They maybe were not asked to assess any other possibilities of how this could be manipulated. So they correct the time and leave it at that. The Fps were not the main suspects and POL photo was used to narrow down the time for the abduction by the repair guy only. There was no reason to look at sneaky manipulation.

Forensic expert. What could go wrong? Remembering the Chamberlains had foetal Haemoglobin found in their car, and helped put Lindy into prison. Oh sorry, it was paint. Mistakes and assumptions can be made.

 

[Kurve]

He doesn't have to have been taken from that side of the house though.

Any car randomly going down that road is going to have to do a u-turn around number 48 or 52. They could then notice William after turning the dogleg. That first stretch from the corner (heading back towards BC Rd.) would be the most difficult spot for anyone to see (or hear) anything.

Perhaps but we're told the dogs got absolutely no scent of him off the property.

I keep looking at how that house is sited, there's windows right the way around, a balcony that takes in the width of the house and one side and overlooks the road, anybody stealing a child as the most serious of offences, would surely be aware of the risk of being seen.

 

[Awakening]

They are testing the theory, not setting out to prove it. The facts could well eliminate the theory (or in no way support it) and is why they won't accept "opinion" from the police.

For me, if the truck driver has only seen the car, then they have bugger all. I've always felt a panicked drive is perfectly feasible. She went in the most isolated direction because that would be the most worrying if that's where he had headed. She admitted she drove and didn't try to hide it. The distance she drove might be illogical, but people do illogical stuff under extreme stress. The police have tried to break her with bluffing and haven't been able to.

If the truck driver saw her out of the car then that would be more incriminating. If he saw any digging implement, then very different story.

There was a statement from police that they believed she threw something out the car window.

Then there is FMs own statement that she had her head out the window looking for William and the truck driver mistakenly believed she was waving at him.

She’s already on the front foot discrediting the truck driver.

She only mentions the truck driver once - in the walk through interview - and never mentions the encounter again.

Which strikes me as very odd because for all she knew, he had picked up William along the very road she was looking for him on.

There was these detailed descriptions of the two vehicles but no details on the truck driver or appeals by the FM for him to come forward.

My guess is that the truck driver saw something fairly suspicious for it to grab his attention. When you are on the road a lot you seen random things fairly frequently.

 

[Angry Red Bull]

We've debated 9.37 v 7.39am ad nauseum. Really hard to let go of entrenched views in either direction. It doesn't now matter which is correct so long as some evidence (even just cadaver) exists a dead body was at Cobb & Co.

Neighbours hearing before and just after 9 is some POL at that time so another 20- 30 minutes makes little difference. As far as LE are concerned they go the path of least resistance meaning if they have to prove 9.37 photos were edited it's an extra tier of proof required to establish their case. Why do that if it instead can be proven on the easier option of 9.37 being accurate.

Likewise why seek to prove FF hit W with car, and have him refute it when all you need to do is say an accident must have happened off balcony. Easier..

Defence will argue insufficient time but sightings, COG lies and cadaver indications don't lie either way. The uncertainty is lack of forensics to prove their case absent cadaver but there have been a number of cases in USA where cadaver was accepted and identifying location first is very persuasive to acceptance of cadaver imo in this case

 

[stormbird]

Too busy doing other things?

The odds of a random vehicle turning around in Benaroon Drive ( a dead-end street ) in that particular time window (10-10:30) are just astronomical. No reason for any non-resident cars to be there, besides the postie who has been ruled out.

If the Crabbe's heard the same car, it was almost certainly the FGMs car backing out of the driveway, and then going down Benaroon towards BCR. They described a vehicle turning on gravel?

Re: "No reason for any non-resident cars to be there, besides the postie who has been ruled out."

The vacant lot across the road from FGM's was for sale at the time: Wayback (it was previously called "Lot 43" but now I think it's "Number 49" and it's been cleared and there's a house on it). Anyone could have driven in to see where the lot was and take a look, and when leaving they might have turned around in front of any of the nearby houses or in their driveways, or by doing a U-turn where the bitumen runs out (near Nos 51 & 52 or No.43).

Also re the postie: what if she couldn't deliver everything that day because her run was unusually early? Someone else might have come along later to deliver the remaining post items or parcels. Jubelin's book said he didn't even want to investigate her at first, so I'm not confident the police have eliminated the possibility of a later unofficial delivery run. MOO

Also: anyone in a 4WD vehicle driving through to Kendall State Forest. Paul S said he saw or heard a noisy 4WD go that way earlier in the week. Reporters keep saying that Benaroon Drive was a dead-end street but on Google Street View the signpost for Benaroon Drive looks to be the only one along the southern part of Batar Creek Road which does not say "no through road".

 

[Awakening]

If they are going to submit there are cadaver indications in location and /or FGM car then that is it for me.

COG lies
COG lies FGM
Drive to Cobb & Co and seen
Cadaver indications at that site
Cadaver indications in FGM car
Hand injury on bush

Cadaver indications are only given to where a dead human is or was. 97% accurate..

Enough for me

***

I think FM claimed the injury to her palm was that she fell over on the driveway and used her hand to break the fall. Given the tight time frame to discover his body and remove it, she would have been in a hurry. So perhaps she really did fall on the driveway.

 

[Wallace52]

Where is the evidence of 'perverting the course of justice' or 'interfering with a corpse'. If nothing substantial is presented , it is just malicious behaviour by the police in the same manner as Spedding.

We have three weeks left in the inquest. I hope for the police's sake they have something real to present.

If they don't, there needs to be a full and open judicial enquiry into this case and the police response. It calls for major cultural change within the police force imho.

Calm down, sister. It’s only the first day of the inquest. Cool your jets.

The FM and the FGM are the only two people who did not have an alibi for William’s disappearance.

And their statements and walkthroughs are highly conflicting. It’s very sus.

Sometimes when you exclude everything else, there is only a couple of possibilities that remain.

 

[31550]

I think he was never there. Red Herring swallowed by police hook line and sinker.

Never where? FGM house or riding school. He was definitely at FGM house IMO. And most probably in FGM car. And probably along BCR. But possibly further afield than the riding school.

 

[31550]

The foster daughter was 4 years old. I am not convinced her testimony is that reliable. When I saw that the arrival time was between 8.30pm and 9 pm the night before according to the four year old foster daughter, I suspected she had been coached. No pre-schooler is going to give a time of arrival like that. Red flag.

It all gets back to what she exactly said on the first day and how she was asked. If she was coached and felt intimidated then anything is possible. If William died in his sleep, she may not even know.

She was interrogated by experts, who would be able to tell the difference between truth, coached testimony, and fantasy. No 4YO is capable of deceiving experts, intentionally or otherwise. The suggestion that she could be convincingly coached and maintain the narrative for 10 years is ridiculous and frankly insulting to her character and intelligence.

 

[Wallace52]

She was interrogated by experts, who would be able to tell the difference between truth, coached testimony, and fantasy. No 4YO is capable of deceiving experts, intentionally or otherwise. The suggestion that she could be convincingly coached and maintain the narrative for 10 years is ridiculous and frankly insulting to her character and intelligence.

100 percent.

 

[LRitz]

Dr Mallett said it was time for NSW Police to "charge her or leave her alone".

Any chance of charges of perjury? Podcasts and media interviews are not under oath. Lots of excuses why different stories do not always match up. FM's early statement she remembers walking to the bus stop and the important special orange juice but forgets searching for William in the car. Her defence she was stressed and forgot. My guess not enough to get a conviction, but would be interesting to hear FPs defence in court.