Do you believe the Iraq War can be justified?

[bit_pattern]

Looks like the supposed success of the 'surge' is starting to unravel...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/iraq-implodes-as-shia-fights-shia-801214.html

 

[TheBloods]

You wont see NMWBlubs for a few weeks now. It usually takes him that long to get over the 'sooks'

I think (as usual) you misunderstand the subject of Skip's mirth...

 

[camsmith]

Looks like the supposed success of the 'surge' is starting to unravel...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/iraq-implodes-as-shia-fights-shia-801214.html

"supposed success"? Head still in the sand?

 

[bit_pattern]

"supposed success"? Head still in the sand?

Hmmm, I've heard that phrase before. You're probably as right about this as you are about global warming.

I notice you've been pretty quiet on that front lately...



But did you actually read the link or not, cam?

The "surge" worked because the Americans managed to maintain a truce with Sadr while paying Sunni tribal leaders not to fight- all the while providing them with arms. Now Sadr has broken his truce, the Sunni's are re-armed, I'm willing to waher ten or twenty bucks that in a years time Iraq will be in a worse state than it is in thie so-called post-surge environment.

 

[Gunnar Longshanks]

Nice to see my thread still getting a work-out.

 

[Juddism]

"supposed success"? Head still in the sand?

so less civilians dying = success? fact is they are STILL dying so it is a failure...was the surge designed to protect US soldiers or Iraqi civilians?

and now....well fighting has broken out in the south. Maliki is Saddam take two, another US puppet and brutal dictator.

Iraq's US-backed Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki has vowed that security forces will battle Shiite militia in Basra "to the end", despite huge demonstrations to demand his resignation.


Mehdi Army fighters loyal to cleric Moqtada al-Sadr remained in control of much of Basra, Iraq's second biggest city and main oil hub, defying a three-day government offensive that has led to violence spreading across the south and Baghdad.
Authorities imposed a three-day curfew in the capital to contain the clashes.


Saboteurs blew up one of Iraq's two main oil export pipelines from Basra, cutting at least a third of the exports from the southern oilfields, a Southern Oil Company official said.


Mr Maliki, who has travelled to Basra to oversee the crackdown, told tribal leaders it was sending "a message to all gangs that the state is in charge of the country".


"We entered this battle with determination and we will continue to the end. No retreat. No talks. No negotiations."


Sadr has called for talks. Late on Thursday he issued a statement saying: "We ask everyone to adopt the political resolution and peaceful protest. Do not shed Iraqi blood."


More than 130 people have been killed and hundreds wounded since the government began its offensive on Tuesday, exposing deep divisions between powerful factions within Iraq's majority Shiite community.
The clashes have all but wrecked a truce declared last August by Sadr, which Washington had said helped curb violence.


The Government says it is fighting "outlaws", but Sadr's followers say political parties in Mr Maliki's government are using military force to marginalise their rivals ahead of local elections due by October.


In a speech at the US Air Force museum in Ohio, US President George W Bush praised Maliki's "boldness" in launching the operation and said it showed the Iraqi leader's commitment to "enforce the law in an even-handed manner".


Tens of thousands of Sadr supporters marched in Baghdad in a massive show of force for the cleric, demanding Mr Maliki's removal. In the vast Sadr City slum, named after the cleric's slain father, crowds of angry men chanted slogans.


"We demand the downfall of the Maliki government. It does not represent the people. It represents Bush and Cheney," marcher Hussein Abu Ali said.
Siege

The slum of 2 million people is in a virtual state of siege.
"We are trapped in our homes with no water or electricity since yesterday. We can't bathe our children or wash our clothes," said a resident who gave his name as Mohammed.


Demonstrations were also held in the Kadhimiya and Shula districts, among the largest anti-government protests Maliki's government has faced. An Interior Ministry source said hundreds of thousands took part.
A Reuters correspondent in Basra said Iraqi forces had cordoned off seven districts but were being repelled by Mehdi Army fighters inside them. Helicopters swooped overhead.


Reuters television pictures showed masked Mehdi fighters firing mortars, waving rocket launchers in the air and dancing with children in the streets. Some showed off captured government vehicles sprayed with Mehdi Army slogans.


Authorities imposed curfews in other Shi'ite towns to halt the spread of the violence. Many shops in Baghdad were shut and the streets largely empty as people stayed at home.


An Interior Ministry source said 51 people had been killed and more than 200 wounded so far in Basra alone. Basra's police chief survived a roadside bomb which killed three bodyguards.


Clashes have spread in the past two days to the southern cities of Kut, Hilla, Nassiriya, Diwaniya, Amara and Kerbala, as well as 13 predominantly Shi'ite neighbourhoods of Baghdad that have a Mehdi Army presence.


The 'Green Zone' in central Baghdad came under repeated rocket attack during the day in some of the worst barrages aimed at the government and diplomatic compound in recent months. One rocket landed inside the grounds of the US embassy complex.


Many of the rockets fell short and landed in surrounding neighbourhoods.



The US military blamed rogue elements of the Mehdi Army for the attacks, which it said killed one Iraqi and wounded 14 others.


Forty-four people have been killed and 75 wounded in Wasit province, police chief Abdul Hanin al-Imara said. US planes flew over the provincial capital Kut and gunfire rang out as troops entered the streets, a Reuters witness said.


Ali Bustan, head of the health directorate for eastern Baghdad, said 30

bodies and more than 200 wounded had been brought to two hospitals in Sadr City.


Reuters television pictures showed fighters in T-shirts and jeans firing rocket-propelled grenades and rifles on the streets of the northern Shaab district. Police said Sadr followers had set ablaze a building of Maliki's Dawa party.


US and Iraqi checkpoints near Sadr City came under fire, said a US military spokesman.


Gunmen also burst into the home of a government security spokesman, set it on fire and kidnapped him, police said.


Sadr's aides say his ceasefire is still formally in place. But his followers have staged a "civil disobedience" campaign, forcing schools and shops to shut, and Sadr has threatened to declare a "civil revolt" if the crackdown is not halted.
-Reuters

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/03/28/2201266.htm?section=world

 

[camsmith]

so less civilians dying = success? fact is they are STILL dying so it is a failure...was the surge designed to protect US soldiers or Iraqi civilians?

and now....well fighting has broken out in the south. Maliki is Saddam take two, another US puppet and brutal dictator.

Improved security is what the surge hoped to bring. I'd say it has so far improved. The numbers show that, less attacks, less deaths, less people fleeing the country etc..

Of course the latest development puts progress back a bit, but I can atleast admit when things are going well, and when they are not. You seem to be fixed on only the negatives.

Hmmm, I've heard that phrase before. You're probably as right about this as you are about global warming.

I notice you've been pretty quiet on that front lately...

But did you actually read the link or not, cam?

The "surge" worked because the Americans managed to maintain a truce with Sadr while paying Sunni tribal leaders not to fight- all the while providing them with arms. Now Sadr has broken his truce, the Sunni's are re-armed, I'm willing to waher ten or twenty bucks that in a years time Iraq will be in a worse state than it is in thie so-called post-surge environment.

I've been too cold to worry about global warming.

There's a number of reasons why the surge is working. The peace deal has helped, of course. And still Sadr is calling for peace and a stop to the violence.

I'm willing to bet the same people now saying Iraq is doomed were saying exactly the same thing a year ago. Funnily enough it didn't work out as they had planned and they along with the MSM has ignored Iraq for just under a year. Not many deaths = no chance at hammering Bush. One week of violence and the same muppets are up in arms again.

 

[bit_pattern]

I've been to cold to worry about global warming.

LOL, your understanding of the way the climate works really IS that simplistic, isn't it?

Well, one has to admire your tenacity at never admitting defeat no matter how badly you get beaten down

Anyway, back OT, the government isn't going to negotiate another truce with Sadr, al-Maliki has made that much clear:

Mr Maliki, however, has remained firm, apparently ignoring calls by the Sadrists’ leader for a negotiated end to the conflict. “We will continue until the end. No retreat, no talks, no negotiations,” he said in a televised speech.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/af4fcee8-fc2d-11dc-9229-000077b07658.html

 

[bit_pattern]

Sadr Offensive Shows Failure of Petraeus Strategy

The signs that the Madhi Army will no longer remain passive mark a major defeat for the U.S. military command's strategy aimed at weakening the Mahdi Army.

When he took command in Iraq in early 2007, Petraeus recognized that the U.S. occupation forces could not afford to wage a full-fledged campaign against the Mahdi Army as a whole. Instead it adopted a strategy of dividing the Sadrist movement.

Petraeus and the ground commander in Iraq, Lt. Gen. Ray Odierno, hoped that there were leaders in the Sadrist movement who would be willing to give up further military resistance and accept the U.S. occupation and the existing government.

For months, the command tried to generate a "dialogue" with "moderates" in the Sadrist camp. It issued a series of statements hailing Sadr's willingness to change the purpose of his movement. Most recently, on Jan. 17, Odierno said, "I believe he is trying to move forward with more of a religious organization and get away from a militia type-supported organization" But he admitted, "That could change."

Meanwhile, Petraeus targeted selected elements of the Mahdi Army in raids in Sadr City and the Shi'ite south, portraying its targets as "criminals" and "rogue elements" which had broken away from Sadr and were armed, trained and financed by Iran. Odierno suggested in his Jan. 17 press briefing that such renegade groups were causing "the majority of the violence."

But the "moderate" Sadrists who would be willing to make a deal with the U.S. never materialized. Last July, a U.S. commander in Baghdad claimed that Sadrist representatives had initiated "indirect" talks with the U.S. military. But in January, Odierno would say only that they had been meeting with "local leaders" in Sadr City, not with representatives of the Sadrist movement.

The Mahdi Army's blunt warnings of military countermeasures followed months of raids against Sadr's political-military organization by both U.S. forces and the Badr Organization. According to a senior Sadrist parliamentarian, between 2,000 and 2,500 Mahdi Army militiamen had been detained since Sadr declared a cease-fire last August.

The raids have been aimed at weakening the Madhi Army's political hold on Shi'ite cities in anticipation of eventual provincial elections.

 

[dan warna]

Improved security is what the surge hoped to bring. I'd say it has so far improved. The numbers show that, less attacks, less deaths, less people fleeing the country etc..

Of course the latest development puts progress back a bit, but I can atleast admit when things are going well, and when they are not. You seem to be fixed on only the negatives.



I've been too cold to worry about global warming.

There's a number of reasons why the surge is working. The peace deal has helped, of course. And still Sadr is calling for peace and a stop to the violence.

I'm willing to bet the same people now saying Iraq is doomed were saying exactly the same thing a year ago. Funnily enough it didn't work out as they had planned and they along with the MSM has ignored Iraq for just under a year. Not many deaths = no chance at hammering Bush. One week of violence and the same muppets are up in arms again.

Im sure there were quiet times during the nazi occupation of western europe as well

 

[camsmith]

LOL, your understanding of the way the climate works really IS that simplistic, isn't it?

No im just too cold to type unless its desperately required (and its footy season).

I did see the TT alarmist story last night though, about drowning polar bears and melting Antarctica. I'm surprised they didn't tell us how all the polar bears had "disappeared" from Antarctica because of global warmcooleming (they did allude to it though).

Anyway, back OT, the government isn't going to negotiate another truce with Sadr, al-Maliki has made that much clear:

We shall see. It's too early to jump to conclusions.

 

[dan warna]

camsmith still thinks donald rumsfelds press releases from 5 years ago are factually correct

 

[achancely]

Is camsmith the board idiot?

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Is camsmith the board idiot?

Yeah, but some village called. They want him back.

 

[camsmith]

Rather be a village idiot than a surrender monkey.

Im sure there were quiet times during the nazi occupation of western europe as well

So what we're doing in Iraq is similar to what the Nazis did in Europe?

 

[bit_pattern]

So what we're doing in Iraq is similar to what the Nazis did in Europe?

Well, Hitler justified invading the Sudentanland and Poland with the same 'defending the homeland' rhetoric as the US did in 2003. Other than gassing the Jews then, yes, what the US is doing in Iraq is very similar to what Germany did in Europe.

 

[bit_pattern]

Looks like Al-Maliki is trying to use the American tactic of paying its enemies not to fight

http://www.theage.com.au/news/world...shiite-violence/2008/03/28/1206207408164.html

Nothing like a long-term solution...

 

[achancely]

Rather be a village idiot than a surrender monkey.

At least a surrender monkey knows when to quit!

 

[dan warna]

Rather be a village idiot than a surrender monkey.



So what we're doing in Iraq is similar to what the Nazis did in Europe?

illegal invasion based on lies, then ripping of the resources.

supporting collaborators while oppressing any locals who oppose them.

the iraqi government is no different from marshall vichy's government in france.

the vast proportion of the domestic population support the resistance against uS occupation.

its got so bad the US has allied with the sunni's (LOL) and fighting against the shi'ites again.

wonder how long before the US starts backing the ba'athists again, already a fair amount of the old ba'athist military infrastructure is sliding back into place under the US blessing.

must be like old days when the US supported the ba'athists gassing kurds and iranians