Do you believe the Iraq War can be justified?

[Gunnar Longshanks]

So then what is your excuse for being duped by the ridiculously low-brow propaganda?

I haven't been duped by anything.

I don't subscribe to either of the polar arguments that no longer engage each other.

I've made my position clear earlier. If you want to pretend I'm arguing something I'm not, then that's up to you.

 

[Gunnar Longshanks]

High-brow pr0n doesn't help your political knowledge.

That depends what kind of pr0n you're watching.

 

[Gunnar Longshanks]

No, it more goes that the US signed the UN Charter and swore to uphold its principles.

So go and read it and have a think.

Everyone talks about the UN as though it will naturally deliver just outcomes if only the naughty Americans would stop running off and doing their own thing.

I just want to know what the UN has ever delivered to deserve this blind faith.

Telling me to read the charter doesn't cut it.

 

[Gunnar Longshanks]

Exactly.

When the invasion began in 2003 Saddam was not a threat to another sovereign nation and everyone who knew anything knew that, including those in the Bush administration. Which kind of makes you wonder how seriously they really take this whole terrorism thing.

I agree.

There were bogus arguments made to justify the invasion. The people who made those arguments should be held accountable. People should have the chance to vote them out of office.

Oh wait, that was the 2004 election.

But seriously, I'm not defending the reasons given for the invasion. They were obviously flawed.

The idea I am floating - and I'm not 100% committed to it - is that once you set aside the rhetoric, the invasion of Iraq was still a legitimate use of US power.

 

[mr_cellotape]

Were people making those arguments in the lead-up to the latest invasion?

May I inquire as to which rock you were apparently under during late 2002 and early 2003? You're fascinating.

 

[KissStephanie]

Were people making those arguments in the lead-up to the latest invasion?

Absolutely! Even 'Blind Freddy' could see the potential problems and that there wasn't enough reason to begin a war. I certainly felt prior to March of 2003 that a war with Iraq had more chance of becoming a disaster than not from what I had read and heard.

I also didn't trust the Bush administration, particularly as Bush himself has been involved with five failed business ventures prior to becoming president. His presidency has continued along that very same path of failure.

There were bogus arguments made to justify the invasion. The people who made those arguments should be held accountable. People should have the chance to vote them out of office.

Oh wait, that was the 2004 election.

There is no doubt that the Kerry campaign was flawed. Had it been run as well as Karl Rove ran the Bush campaign, then John Kerry would have become president. Rove was able to get the Christian-right to the polls in record numbers on issues such as abortion and gay marriage, and that was the difference in an election that Kerry had received the second most votes in American history.

How Americans currently feel about the Bush administration and the war was accurately shown at the mid-term elections in November, and Bush's current record low approval rating of 28%.

The idea I am floating - and I'm not 100% committed to it - is that once you set aside the rhetoric, the invasion of Iraq was still a legitimate use of US power.

Rubbish! It was an abuse of power that has cost far too much both financially and in lives lost. It was the wrong war at the wrong time, without a plan, while underestimating the enemy, and based on lies.

 

[Dont be a lemon]

Anyone who thinks the invasion and hostile takeover of Iraq can be justified is simply a fool.

 

[just maybe]

That depends what kind of pr0n you're watching.

I'll pay that.

 

[just maybe]

Everyone talks about the UN as though it will naturally deliver just outcomes if only the naughty Americans would stop running off and doing their own thing.

I just want to know what the UN has ever delivered to deserve this blind faith.

Telling me to read the charter doesn't cut it.

It's not just the naughty Americans. It's the P5 in general.

As for what they've delivered...go and look at the number of countries propped up by UN peacekeepers.

 

[camsmith]

Bump. It can still be justified.

The Invasion of Iraq: Still The Right Thing To Do

By Free Stinker | January 24, 2008 - 12:04 ET

Have you seen that the "Bush Lied" talking point is now "officially confirmed" by a "study"? The problem is, this study does not make the Cyclosarin, Mustard Gas, Sarin, Tabun, and (tons of) Uranium go away. And the UN has even admited that the "old" WMD found was not degraded.

As if the WMD wasn't enough, there were plenty of other reasons to overthrow Saddam.

Saddam Hussein used Chemical weapon against the Iranians, Kurds, and Marsh Arabs;
attacked 6 nations (Iran, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Israel, Qatar, and Bahrain); violated the terms of the Gulf War surrender, planned the assasination of a former U.S. President, collaborated with and harbored terrorists; and was – according to The New York Times - one year away from building and Atomic Bomb before he was finally
overthrown.

Hat Tip to Chris Donohoe, Sua Sponte 75, NL207, dahliatravers, Mean Gene Dr. Love, and SFCMAC for some descriptions/links.

I. Saddam was known to have WMD and used it in at least 3 separate situations.

1. Chemical weapons used against Iran: BBC - Chemical weapons: Blister agents
2. Chemical weapons used against Kurds: BBC - Iraqi Kurds recall chemical attack
3. Chemical weapons used against Sunnis: Human Rights Watch - The Iraqi Government Assault on the Marsh Arabs
4. President Clinton, Madeline Albright, Sandy Berger, and others also thought Saddam had WMD: SNOPES - See these Statements & see Acsa.net too
5. Nancy Pelosi issued a statement: www.House.gov - “Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology”

II. There is a long list of WMD found in Iraq

1. Ah ha! The UN says the WMD was NOT degraded See Page 30: United Nations - UN document S/2003/580 of 30 May 2003
2. Anthrax: CNN - Laurie Mylroie: Is Iraq involved with U.S. terror attacks?
3. Chemical Weapons: Foxnews - Report: Hundreds of WMDs Found in Iraq
4. Chemical Weapons: DoD - Munitions Found in Iraq Meet WMD Criteria, Official Says
5. Chemical Weapons: Washington Post - Iraqi Chemical Stash Uncovered
6. Cyanide: Free Republic - Request For 500 KG Of SODIUM CYANIDE A Precursor For A Chemical Weapon (Translation)
7. Cyclosarin: BBC - Troops 'foil Iraq nerve gas bid'
8. Mobile Chem Labs: CNN - U.S.: Mobile labs found in Iraq
9. Mobile Chem Labs: CNN - Second suspected mobile weapons lab found in Iraq
10. Mobile Chem Labs: Free Republic - Plan To Produce Mobile Laboratories (Translation)
11. Mustard Gas, Sarin, and Tabun: United Nations – Unresolved Disarmament Issues
12. Mustard Gas, Sarin, and Tabun: Free Republic - 2003 UN Report: Iraq Sulfur Mustard Gas Chemical Weapons Have High Quality After 12 years of Storage
13. Mustard Gas, and Sarin: Foxnews - Sarin, Mustard Gas Discovered Separately in Iraq
14. Mustard Gas, and Sarin: CNN - Gas shell findings a concern for Iraq arms inspector
15. Nuclear Bomb: CNN - Defector: Iraq could have nukes by 2005
16. Nuclear Bomb: Daily Telegraph - UN inspectors uncover proof of Saddam's nuclear bomb plans
17. Nuclear Bomb: National Review - Shocker: New York Times Confirms Iraqi Nuclear Weapons Program
18. Fixed Link! Nuclear Bomb:New York Times – Saddam was 1 year away from building nuclear bomb
19. Nuclear Bomb: Free Republic - Saddam Met with his Nuclear Group in 2002 (Translation)
20. Nuclear Bomb: Free Republic - Secret Nuclear Project (Translation)
21. Nuclear Bomb: MSNBC - Interview with a Bombmaker: Saddam Hussein’s former atomic-bomb developer says Iraq is on course to gain ‘full nuclear status’
22. Radiation Device: Free Republic - Highly Radioactive Atomic Neutron Device (Translation)
23. Sarin: MSNBC - Bomb said to hold deadly sarin gas explodes in Iraq
24. Sarin: CBS News - Iraq Sarin Find Worries U.S.
25. Unexamined Bunkers: NY Sun - Ex-Officer Spurned on WMD Claim
26. Uranium: Newsmax - The Uranium Joe Wilson Didn't Mention
27. Uranium: Newsmax - Tapes: Saddam Hussein Had Secret Uranium Enrichment Program
28. Uranium: Free Republic - Procurement of 50000 Aluminum Tubes That Can Be Used For URANIUM ENRICHMENT.
29. Uranium: Washington Post - U.S. Faulted for Leaving Tons of Uranium in Iraq
30. Uranium: USA Today - U.S. transferred uranium from Iraq without U.N. authorization
31. Various WMD: WorldNet Daily - Saddam's WMD have been found
32. Various WMD: CIA - DCI Special Advisor Report on Iraq's WMD
33. WMD moved out of Iraq: MSNBC - Officials: Terrorist attacks in Jordan averted
34. WMD moved out of Iraq: WorldNet Daily - New evidence: Saddam's WMD in Lebanon
35. WMD moved out of Iraq: NY Sun - Iraq's WMD Secreted in Syria, Sada Says
36. WMD moved out of Iraq: The Sunday Telegraph - Saddam's WMD hidden in Syria, says Iraq survey chief
37. WMD moved out of Iraq: Newsmax - Iraqi General: Syria Gave Al-Qaida Saddam's WMDs WMD hidden in Syria
38. WMD moved out of Iraq: WorldNet Daily - Surprise, surprise! Saddam had WMDs after all
39. WMD moved out of Iraq: WorldNet Daily - Saddam general: WMDs in Syria
40. WMD moved out of Iraq: Free Republic - Document: Iraqi Dissident Talks About WMD Moved to Syria (Translation)
41. Chemical Material: Free Republic - Chemical Material Hidden Underground (Translation)
42. Chemical Platoon: Free Republic - Saddam Regime Document Dated 2001 Shows Chemical Platoon Still Exists And Active (Translation)
43. Chemical Suits/Gear: CNN - UK: Chemical suits found in Iraq
44. Chemical Suits/Gear: Free Republic - Chemical Gear for The Chemical Group (Translation)

III. Banned Weapons

1. MiGs, a banned weapon: BBC - Iraqi aircraft 'buried in desert'
2. Missiles, a banned weapon: Foxnews - U.S. Army Finds Buried Ammunition Cache in Iraq
3. Missles, a banned weapon: Slate - This Was Not Looting

IV. Saddam Hussein had a History of Aggression, attacking 6 other nations.

1. Attacked Iran launching the Iran-Iraq War: Bartleby.com - Iran-Iraq War
2. Attacked Kuwait launching Gulf War: Nti.org - Missile Chronology (Note, #3-5 same link)
3. Attacked Saudi Arabia (Gulf War): (see #2)
4. Attacked Israel (Gulf War): (see #2)
5. Attacked Qatar (Gulf War): (see #2)
6. Attacked Bahrain (Gulf War): CNN - Text Of Clinton Statement On Iraq

V. Terrorists have been found in Iraq & there were numerous associations between Iraq & terrorists

1. Abu Niddal, Rome Airport Massacre: National Review - Dead Terrorist in Baghdad
2. Abu Abbas (#1): CNN - U.S. captures mastermind of Achille Lauro hijacking
3. Abu Abbas (#2): BBC - Cruise ship hijacker dies in Iraq
4. Ayman al-Zawahiri: CNN - Pentagon: Bin Laden deputy complains about money, Iraq tactics
5. al-Zarqawi: Kaleejtimes.com (running an AP story) - Saddam refused to hand Zarqawi to Jordan: King Abdullah
6. al-Zarqawi: Free Republic - Zarqawi in Iraq Long Before the War Started
7. Saddam had contacts with Al Qaida: Slate - A Loser's History
8. Saddam had contacts with Al Qaeda: Weekley Standard - Saddam's al Qaeda Connection
9. Saddam had contacts with Al Qaeda: Weekley Standard - Case Closed
10. Saddam had contacts with Al Qaeda: Weekley Standard - Yes, There Is a Connection
11. Saddam worked with Terrorists: NY Sun - Saddam, Al Qaeda Did Collaborate, Documents Show
12. Saddam worked with Terrorists: CNN - On tape, Hussein talks of WMDs
13. Saddam worked with Terrorists: Free Republic - Saddam Regime Document: Iraqi Intelligence met with Bin Laden in 1995 (Translation)
14. Saddam recruiting Terrorists: Free Republic - Saddam Regime Recruits Suicide Terrorists to Hit US Interests (Translation)
15. Saddam worked with Terrorists: Free Republic - Saddam Ordered To Treat The Arab Feedayeen Terrorists The Same As Iraqi Soldiers
16. Saddam worked with Terrorists: Free Republic - Iraqi Intelligence To Train Arab Feedayeen Terrorists In the Year 2000 (Translation)
17. Saddam worked with Terrorists: Free Republic - Saddam Regime Training and Using Foreign Arab Terrorists As Suicide Bombers. (Translation)
18. Saddam worked with Terrorists: Free Republic - Afghani Taliban Consul Spoke of a Relationship Between Iraq and Bin Laden
19. Saddam paid Terrorists: Free Republic - Saddam Ordered 25,000 Dollars for Each Suicide Terrorist Against Israel
20. Saddam recruited Terrorists: Free Republic - Iraqi Intelligence Asks Hamas To Conduct Terrorist Attacks Against The US
21. Terrorist camp in Iraq: Foxnews - Marines Discover Terror Training Camp Near Baghdad
22. Terrorist camp in Iraq: Weekly Standard – Saddam's Terror Training Camps
23. Terrorist camp in Iraq: MSNBC - Positive test for terror toxins in Iraq
24. Terrorist camp in Iraq: PBS – Interview: Sabah Kodah
25. Terrorist camp in Iraq: GlobalSecurity.org - Salman Pak / Al Salman
26. Terrorist camp in Iraq: Guardian - Al-Qaida running new terror camp, say Kurds
27. Terrorist camp in Iraq: Intelmessages.org - Salman Pak - Iraq's Own Terrorist Training Camp

VI. Violation of Gulf War Surrender Terms

1. Radar tracking & SA missiles fired upon "No Fly Zone" Aircraft: Cdi.org - Military Action in Iraq: 1990-2002 (a violation of Gulf War surrender terms)

VII. Other Casus Belli

1. Assassination attempt on former President George Bush, Sr.: Washington Post - U.S. Strikes Iraq for Plot to Kill Bush

Finally, we have this insightful quote from The Russian business weekly Itogi: "Even if Colin Powell had presented the UN with an atomic bomb confiscated from Saddam, the Europeans would have been unlikely to agree to start a war."

 

[Richo83]

Took their sweet time though cam, five years and finally they've found a reason why they're there. It's not because Saddam and AQ were linked, it's not because Saddam had WMDs, it's not because he had nukes, finally they are fighting a war for a reason that actually exists, islamic terrorism, which they partly created.

But anyway, no crying over split milk, the US have an obligation to clean up the mess and they'd do well to do so. They owe it to the Iraqi people.

 

[Ruanaidh]

Bump. It can still be justified.

I'm waiting for a similar list of reasons why we should invade the US or Israel. We are comparing apples with apples are we not

 

[achancely]

Bump. It can still be justified.

Headlines don't make a case.

 

[dan warna]

LOL camsmith...

all your post is unsubstantiated out of date and subsequently proven wrong.

good job on 10 year out of date propoganda, I vote your post as the most pathetic nixonesque rubbish claptrap lies since well Donald Rumsfeld last spoke.

your post really was a pathetic piece of trash.

 

[JW Frogen]

Was the war justified?

Well, if you believe in maintaining the same old same old support for any tyranny in the Middle East in trade for oil, no. It was not justified.

Kissenger would agree with you, and I am sure he is surprised to find much of the Left agreeing with him, though they are perhaps not self aware enough to know they are.

But, if like Bush and the Neo Cons you believe the same old same old was not working, that the region needs democracy, that democracy is transformative force and long term brings stability, then yes the war is justified.

Given the turn out in the three Iraqi elections, it would appear most Iraqis agree with the latter view.

But then when did their opinion matter to the anti war crowd?

 

[JW Frogen]

Allright, so that is settled then.

Iraq was the right thing to do.

Now, "on to Tehrain!!!!!!"

I would have shouted "on to Damascus" but that would be a copywrite violation from Lawarence of Arabia.

 

[Perrin]

Was the war justified?

Well, if you believe in maintaining the same old same old support for any tyranny in the Middle East in trade for oil, no. It was not justified.

Kissenger would agree with you, and I am sure he is surprised to find much of the Left agreeing with him, though they are perhaps not self aware enough to know they are.

But, if like Bush and the Neo Cons you believe the same old same old was not working, that the region needs democracy, that democracy is transformative force and long term brings stability, then yes the war is justified.

Given the turn out in the three Iraqi elections, it would appear most Iraqis agree with the latter view.

But then when did their opinion matter to the anti war crowd?

Some regular posters here are are going to have a field day on your post.

Using your 'same old same old was not working' then why wasn't Saudi Arabia invaded?

IMO after 5 years and no end in sight the answer to this question is no. The real question the USA and its allies should be asking is are we now better off for invading Iraq.

 

[GuruJane]

Allright, so that is settled then.

Iraq was the right thing to do.

Now, "on to Tehrain!!!!!!"

I would have shouted "on to Damascus" but that would be a copywrite violation from Lawarence of Arabia.

Five years on:

--- Dan Warna's fabled "freedom fighters" turned out to be depraved, mass murdering thugs (surprise, surprise) and were chucked out of Anbar by the arab Sunni population.

--- or have turned turtle

--- Another of Dan's heroes, Muqtada, has retired to Iran to continue his religious studies and learn how to be a humanitarian.

--- meanwhile Iraq is the first and only country in the entire Arab world to have a genuine representative democracy and genuine democratic constitution - thanks to the US.

--- the first anniversary of the execution of Saddam and his Baath cronies passed without notice.

--- the US will have a military presence in Iraq for the forseeable future at the request of the Iraqi government.

--- and the western world's oil supplies continue to be secure.

Whatever next?

 

[dan warna]

--- and the western world's oil supplies continue to be secure.

Whatever next?

and thats what this was always about?

the vast majority of iraqi's still want the US out

the vast majority of resistance to the illegal occupation are iraqi's not foreigners

still no WMDs

still no link between saddam and AQ

 

[Richo83]

Five years on:

--- Dan Warna's fabled "freedom fighters" turned out to be depraved, mass murdering thugs (surprise, surprise) and were chucked out of Anbar by the arab Sunni population.

--- or have turned turtle

--- Another of Dan's heroes, Muqtada, has retired to Iran to continue his religious studies and learn how to be a humanitarian.

--- meanwhile Iraq is the first and only country in the entire Arab world to have a genuine representative democracy and genuine democratic constitution - thanks to the US.

--- the first anniversary of the execution of Saddam and his Baath cronies passed without notice.

--- the US will have a military presence in Iraq for the forseeable future at the request of the Iraqi government.

--- and the western world's oil supplies continue to be secure.

Whatever next?

Why is it okay for the US to invade another nation to ensure it's oil supplies but it's not okay for Iraq? I think there needs to be principles in politics here.

Sure invade for humanitarian reasons but if the US were really concerned about the humanitarian concerns of the Iraqis, they would have given oil p and it's oil profits to the Iraqis so they can profit and prosper from their largest economic sector.

The notion of Arab democracy has been around for a while now, it's just that western and Soviet governments have been willing to support dictatorial regimes in order to ensure stability in the ME, Israel's survival and oil supplies. Suddenly America provides Iraq with democracy, well if the US hadn't intervened in such countries as Saudi Arabia, they may be democratic by now.

So the whole America gave democracy to the first Arab nation point is kinda bunk.

 

[dan warna]

you'd also think they might start with democracy in saudi, kuwait or even libya, or perhaps shouldn't have been running around helping marcos kill pro democracy folks in the 80s and whatnot.

lawl at the revisionist its all about democracy comments when CLEARLY they said, its not about regime change...right?

 

[jumpinjimmy]

Five years on:

--- Dan Warna's fabled "freedom fighters" turned out to be depraved, mass murdering thugs (surprise, surprise) and were chucked out of Anbar by the arab Sunni population.

--- or have turned turtle

--- Another of Dan's heroes, Muqtada, has retired to Iran to continue his religious studies and learn how to be a humanitarian.

--- meanwhile Iraq is the first and only country in the entire Arab world to have a genuine representative democracy and genuine democratic constitution - thanks to the US.

--- the first anniversary of the execution of Saddam and his Baath cronies passed without notice.

--- the US will have a military presence in Iraq for the forseeable future at the request of the Iraqi government.

--- and the western world's oil supplies continue to be secure.

Whatever next?

And you are still hiding the fact that you are a communist and Trotskyist who is a contributor to the "Last Superpower" website (its amazing what googling will turn up) which calls for the wholesale slaughter of Muslims in the ME (draining the swamps). You are a Neocon cheerleader and a fraud. You and your likewise deluded 'fellow travellers' believe that once the US takes over the globe capitalism will destroy itself leaving a centrally controlled Trotskyist Nirvana in it's wake. What a joke. If US imperialism is not curtailed the Fourth Reich will be installed but that would be ok by you wouldn't it? Your type will just swap allegiance as you've always done in the past. What you fear above all else are free-thinking and acting individuals who do not need to be nursed or threatened by the state. Oh....and a society built on family values and Religion. The west radicalised quarters of Islam initialising the Hegelian Dialectic of Problem. Reaction, Solution to create chaos and then capitalised on it as exposed in the 'Shock Doctrine' by Naomi Klein. Your deception knows no bounds.

 

[jumpinjimmy]

Allright, so that is settled then.

Iraq was the right thing to do.

Now, "on to Tehrain!!!!!!"

I would have shouted "on to Damascus" but that would be a copywrite violation from Lawarence of Arabia.

I'll let others stitch you up lightweight. One drop kick (GJ) at a time is enough.

 

[GuruJane]

and thats what this was always about?

There ain't no oil in Zimbabwe or Darfur so they don't get democracy.

the vast majority of iraqi's still want the US out

Well at least the Sunnis are now on the US payroll.

the vast majority of resistance to the illegal occupation are iraqi's not foreigners

Then they seemed to have turned turtle?

still no WMDs

Nope. And never will be again.

still no link between saddam and AQ

Saddam who?

 

[GuruJane]

And you are still hiding the fact that you are a communist and Trotskyist who is a contributor to the "Last Superpower" website (its amazing what googling will turn up) which calls for the wholesale slaughter of Muslims in the ME (draining the swamps). You are a Neocon cheerleader and a fraud. You and your likewise deluded 'fellow travellers' believe that once the US takes over the globe capitalism will destroy itself leaving a centrally controlled Trotskyist Nirvana in it's wake. What a joke. If US imperialism is not curtailed the Fourth Reich will be installed but that would be ok by you wouldn't it? Your type will just swap allegiance as you've always done in the past. What you fear above all else are free-thinking and acting individuals who do not need to be nursed or threatened by the state. Oh....and a society built on family values and Religion. The west radicalised quarters of Islam initialising the Hegelian Dialectic of Problem. Reaction, Solution to create chaos and then capitalised on it as exposed in the 'Shock Doctrine' by Naomi Klein. Your deception knows no bounds.

Albert Langer: he knew how to organise a mass anti US movement in the universities that grew and grew and grew until our troops were pulled out of Vietnam, heh, heh.

Today's a-war organisers are like featherless quacks quacks in comparison, don't have a strategic braincell between them.