Politics Does Australia need a new progressive political party?

[kranky al]

I predict this party will go nowhere and be disbanded within a few years.

The new Conservative Party?

 

[Gethelred]

Absolutely.

There is a new party based on centre conservatism called democracy first that is championing a return to the centre for the conservatives with policies much more in line with older style Liberal party ideals and rejection of cronyism, living in big businesses pocket and having people in power who have actually done something in their lives outside of being a career politician.

This thing you're describing, it will fall to monied interests because all right wing political parties do. Entropy is a thing in organisations, and principles erode over time; by dint of the fact that they exist within a capitalist context - one specifically designed to play to the flaws within moderate politics - they will always fight a losing rearguard against the corrupting forces both within and without.

Success and its accompanying wealth accumulation is the all encompassing tide.

The left needs to actually be unapologetically left wing

FTFY.

 

[Nuggs Bunny]

FTFY.

Pretty much. I'd be curious to see what people think left wing politics really is, beyond buzzwords like woke of course. The obsession of centre left parties with taking the moral high road, compromising without argument, avoiding a change in living circumstance to any part of the voter base means anyone left of a small l liberal has no mainstream political representation at all.

 

[evolved2]

And yet, Sikhs have been attacked by people thinking they're Muslims. Now why would that be, unless there was confusion amongst the ignorant because they were gauging whether someone was Muslim based on aspects of appearance, including skin colour?

The reality is, Islam often gets associated with non-whiteness, leading to non-Muslim non-white people being profiled by others like Muslims get profiled. (And the flip side is that white Muslim communities like Albanians and Bosniaks often escape this profiling).

Have you ever been profiled as a Muslim on the basis of your skin color?

How have they done this?

Islamophobia is a term with racist connotations even though Islam is not a race.

Do you feel mistreating people (who have committed no crime) because of their religion is acceptable?

That depends on your definition of mistreatment.

Our immigration control should discriminate against religions that are inconsistent with secular democracy.

This sounds an awful lot like telling people to grow up and get over it. People who are suffering generational cycles of trauma and dysfunction brought about by the destruction of their ancestors' culture and way of life, and later ancestors being stolen from their parents, often forced into unpaid labour. I don't think that's something that's very easy to move on from, or everyone would have done it by now.

That's not what I'm saying at all. I said we need to make peace and move on, which will take time.

Are you saying Muslims who have emigrated to Australia have never been mistreated here?

Everyone gets mistreated.

Put it this way - Our secular democracy is far kinder to Muslims than Islamic nations are towards atheists. Muslim immigrants playing the victim card grates on me.

You need to make a case as to why someone is racist rather than asking me why I don't think they're racist. Cite examples of their racism and I'll respond.

https://www.skynews.com.au/australia-news/politics/independent-senator-lidia-thorpe-caught-in-obscene-expletiveladen-rant-outside-melbourne-strip-club/news-story/aa98857ebbbb045b71a9670feba7e6d8

Does that mean racism against First Nations no longer exists?

I'm sure it does still happen.

I'd say that mainstream Australian society likes the First Nations people who make them feel good about themselves as a people or as a nation, and often looks down on the rest. I wonder how well Freeman would be treated in parts of Australia if she weren't a well-known athlete.

What evidence do you have for that claim?

What evidence do you have to support this view?

https://www.skynews.com.au/australia-news/politics/shes-a-very-racist-person-lidia-thorpes-dad-slams-daughter-and-claims-her-parliamentary-power-has-gone-to-her-head/news-story/e8de8d37debe8e68f8b5062aefcb465e

I'd argue that sometimes the divisions already exist, and in those cases, a unifying voice is a distraction, trying to paper over the cracks instead of drawing attention to them so they can be filled and rectified. I think she's correct with many of her assertions about the monarchy and the state of Australian policing.

Being correct doesn't really offer a viable solution. I'm confident many of those who defend Muslims would agree with my assessment that Islam is a homophobic and misogynistic death cult.

You're welcome to disagree, but perhaps you could explain how Thorpe's advocacy for Blak sovereignty is not a factor in her portrayal in the media.

That seems like an unwinnable position.

I'd rather see you explain how her advocacy for Blak sovereignty is a factor.

I'll agree it's bad behaviour unbefitting of a politician.


The man has made a drunken ass of himself in public and in parliament multiple times, and disgraced himself by impregnating his staffer while married. That isn't and shouldn't be a stackable offence, but my recollection the initial media storm died down very quickly, after a couple of months it was rarely mentioned again. I doubt a woman in that position would have got off that lightly, there is still plenty of sl*t shaming in our media.

I see very little difference between the two.

If you say so. I don't know that any one person is the arbiter of what is and isn't racism.


I am South Asian myself and I've only ever received racist treatment from white and East Asian people. Everyone's got their own story.

I rarely see any racism other than 'white man bad' discussed on the SRP. It makes me think the posters here lack knowledge of other nations and cultures.

Australia is one of the more tolerant nations I know of.

This isn't promoting Islam, it's defending Muslims who are being mistreated through no fault of their own. Do you believe when anyone in politics is in favour of the rights of transgender people, they are promoting being transgender? Or are they simply looking to ensure transgender people can live in dignity and peace?

Has she spoken against the mistreatment of non-Muslims by Muslims? The human rights record of Islamic nations are horrible, are they not?

 

[Johnny Bananas]

Have you ever been profiled as a Muslim on the basis of your skin color?

Yes.

Islamophobia is a term with racist connotations even though Islam is not a race.

Do you think the Greens were responsible for that? I think society is responsible for that, and it's because a religion like Islam is often coded by race.

That depends on your definition of mistreatment.

Well, you've certainly taken your own definition later on. How do you feel about people screaming at Australian Muslims in shops to go back where they came from?

Our immigration control should discriminate against religions that are inconsistent with secular democracy.

Are there any other religions that meet this criteria, or just Islam? Do all Muslims believe the same things?

That's not what I'm saying at all. I said we need to make peace and move on, which will take time.

It's not for you to tell the marginalised what to do.

Everyone gets mistreated.

And do we want more of that, or less?

Put it this way - Our secular democracy is far kinder to Muslims than Islamic nations are towards atheists. Muslim immigrants playing the victim card grates on me.

Other Muslims are bad people so that excuses bad treatment of Muslims here and gives them no right to complain? I think that's a really ugly attitude.

I'll respond to the rest later.

 

[Seeds]

A strong progressive opposition is in the best interests of Australia, and we have none. The Greens struggle for any media relevance unless they're proposing unpopular identity politics and victimhood. I see them as the other side of the coin to One Nation.

A political party that promotes secularism, multiculturalism, freedom of speech, employee rights, wage growth, and doesn't exert a lot of energy engaging in unpopular cultural wars (as both extremities tend to) would probably rake in a lot of votes.

Any thoughts?

I would remove the wage growth part (as that occurs naturally with the right policies) and replace it with lowering housing prices and switching taxes from wages to capital.

 

[kranky al]

Have you ever been profiled as a Muslim on the basis of your skin color?

Islamophobia is a term with racist connotations even though Islam is not a race.

That depends on your definition of mistreatment.

Our immigration control should discriminate against religions that are inconsistent with secular democracy.

That's not what I'm saying at all. I said we need to make peace and move on, which will take time.

Everyone gets mistreated.

Put it this way - Our secular democracy is far kinder to Muslims than Islamic nations are towards atheists. Muslim immigrants playing the victim card grates on me.

https://www.skynews.com.au/australia-news/politics/independent-senator-lidia-thorpe-caught-in-obscene-expletiveladen-rant-outside-melbourne-strip-club/news-story/aa98857ebbbb045b71a9670feba7e6d8

I'm sure it does still happen.

What evidence do you have for that claim?

https://www.skynews.com.au/australia-news/politics/shes-a-very-racist-person-lidia-thorpes-dad-slams-daughter-and-claims-her-parliamentary-power-has-gone-to-her-head/news-story/e8de8d37debe8e68f8b5062aefcb465e

Being correct doesn't really offer a viable solution. I'm confident many of those who defend Muslims would agree with my assessment that Islam is a homophobic and misogynistic death cult.

That seems like an unwinnable position.

I'd rather see you explain how her advocacy for Blak sovereignty is a factor.

I see very little difference between the two.

I rarely see any racism other than 'white man bad' discussed on the SRP. It makes me think the posters here lack knowledge of other nations and cultures.

Australia is one of the more tolerant nations I know of.

Has she spoken against the mistreatment of non-Muslims by Muslims? The human rights record of Islamic nations are horrible, are they not?

Religions that are incompatible with secular democracy?

Such as christianity?

I mean theres a state in the us had a referendum on abortion and a massive majority voted that they want access to abortion and the state government full of christian fundies brought in anti abortion laws anyway

Id call that the very definition of religion being incompatible with democratic society.

 

[Seeds]

Religions that are incompatible with secular democracy?

Such as christianity?

I mean theres a state in the us had a referendum on abortion and a massive majority voted that they want access to abortion and the state government full of christian fundies brought in anti abortion laws anyway

Id call that the very definition of religion being incompatible with democratic society.

Yeah I'm pretty sure the poster you are quoting is an athiest and completely agrees with your point.

Obviously All religions are incompatible with secular anything. They can only be tolerated to certain degrees but if their influence becomes too big then the secular system with religion no longer works.

 

[Rusty Brookes]

Yeah I'm pretty sure the poster you are quoting is an athiest and completely agrees with your point.

Obviously All religions are incompatible with secular anything. They can only be tolerated to certain degrees but if their influence becomes too big then the secular system with religion no longer works.

I have a different view on it which is all religions are compatible with secularism - as long as adherents understand that secularism comes first. Your religion pertains to you and nobody else. Secularist societies are in fact the only ones that can guarantee freedom of (and of course, freedom from) religion.

But I 100% agree that in a secularist society you have to remain vigilant that no one religious group is trying to warp the fundamentals on which it is based.

 

[kranky al]

I have a different view on it which is all religions are compatible with secularism - as long as adherents understand that secularism comes first. Your religion pertains to you and nobody else. Secularist societies are in fact the only ones that can guarantee freedom of (and of course, freedom from) religion.

But I 100% agree that in a secularist society you have to remain vigilant that no one religious group is trying to warp the fundamentals on which it is based.

Be easier to name the religions that get this rather than the ones that don’t…..

 

[Seeds]

I have a different view on it which is all religions are compatible with secularism - as long as adherents understand that secularism comes first. Your religion pertains to you and nobody else. Secularist societies are in fact the only ones that can guarantee freedom of (and of course, freedom from) religion.

But I 100% agree that in a secularist society you have to remain vigilant that no one religious group is trying to warp the fundamentals on which it is based.

But ŕeligions can't just pertain to you and nobody else. Each religion has their own universal morality. Morality is something that believers think all people must follow because it's a universal set of rules that govern right and wrong. Morals dont just pertain to oneself. Personal values pertain to one self. Religious morals pertain to all. This is why religions are incompatible with secularism.

Religion and secularism can only coexist as long as their values don't vary to much. Either because a religion becomes a religion in name only with most followers actually deep down not believing. Or because secular people adopt the same moral values of the pre existing religion and don't truly develop a new set of values consistent with science and replacing God with humanity.

 

[faible]

Either because a religion becomes a religion in name only with most followers actually deep down not believing.

I suspect you've just described a fair chunk of the Catholic population of this country.

 

[carltonchelsea]

I’d vote for someone purely based on them saying that “religion poisons everything, I am a secular humanist and that’s how I will govern, for the people, regardless of their idiotic beliefs”.
That’d be progressive, until we have an open minded leader prepared to openly condemn and mock religion, we won’t have a progressive leader nor party!

 

[evolved2]

Yes.

Is that a QLD thing? I was talking to an Asian guy at gym who had lived in Melbourne, Brisbane and London - and he said Brisbane is very racist.

Nobody will profile you as Islamic in Melbourne just because your skin is brown.

Do you think the Greens were responsible for that? I think society is responsible for that, and it's because a religion like Islam is often coded by race.

The Greens aren't ultimately responsible for the term Islamophobia. They seem intent on making a play of it though.

Well, you've certainly taken your own definition later on. How do you feel about people screaming at Australian Muslims in shops to go back where they came from?

I find that treatment of Muslims disgusting.

Are there any other religions that meet this criteria, or just Islam? Do all Muslims believe the same things?

It's naive to view Islam in the same light as other religions. There are worse - Scientology for example - but they don't have the numbers to threaten secular democracy in the same way.

Post-enlightenment Christianity is still a threat, but less so per capita.

It's not for you to tell the marginalised what to do.

Weight of numbers will make that decision rather than me. We're a fairly tolerant bunch in Australia so the marginalised will probably do better here than elsewhere, yes?

And do we want more of that, or less?

We all deserve to be treated with respect individually. Religious beliefs are a different matter.

Other Muslims are bad people so that excuses bad treatment of Muslims here and gives them no right to complain? I think that's a really ugly attitude.

I don't promote the mistreatment of Muslims at all afaic.

When I critique Christianity, progressives are generally with me. When I critique Islam, progressives are on the defensive.

It's fascinating to observe the way conservatives and progressives treat different religions.

 

[evolved2]

Religions that are incompatible with secular democracy?

Such as christianity?

I mean theres a state in the us had a referendum on abortion and a massive majority voted that they want access to abortion and the state government full of christian fundies brought in anti abortion laws anyway

Id call that the very definition of religion being incompatible with democratic society.

Christianity is a horrible religion and Islam is even worse.

I never hear progressives defend Christianity. Never.

 

[faible]

Christianity is a horrible religion and Islam is even worse.

I never hear progressives defend Christianity. Never.

Probably because Christians have had a large portion of the power and representation in this country for a very long time. They’re a long way from a marginalised group.

 

[1990crow]

Hopefully the statistics of younger voters actually caring about Australians and voting against LNP means this is the last election LNP could feasibly actually win.

Fading into obscurity with a progressive party and teals party to pickup the vacuum pushing policy somewhere closer to the centre.