Dual Alignment not the answer.

[Johnny99]

I know there are positives of having the dual alignment, but I think we need to align with one or the other.

Very good point DaveyBoy. I watched both games on the weekend. I noticed how professional both Geelong and Box Hill were. They were following their senior team's AFL game plan.

Relentless pressure and elite foot skills.

These squads train together at AFL standard facilities every week.

Its no surprise these sides controlled their games and both won easily.

Yesterday, we had about 5 -6 NMFC representatives.

They followed the Scott West game plan. They dont follow the Brad Scott game plan.

Do they train at Arden St and then on the weekend go down to Werribee to play with a team they have had nothing to do with the whole week ? Or do they train at Werribee ?

Not sure.

This also happens with our 8 or 9 players aligned to Nth Ballarat. They follow G Fitzgerald rules. They go down and play with Nth Ballarat and probably have nothing to do with their team mates during the week.

Yesterday, I would have liked to have seen one Nth Melb reserve team play Box Hill. I would have liked to have included B Mabon, B McKenzie, T Garner, B Jacobs, M Wilkins, L and C Delaney, Max Warren to that team.

Add to that the injured Daw, Harper, Wood, Curran and Hine. And as Brian Taylor says Wowee....

With Geel, Coll and the Hawks, if a senior player goes down with injury, they are replaced with someone from the seconds. They know the rules. They know the game plan.

We need to get back to one reserve team. One set of rules, one gameplan. I think this is best for our development. Not sending 10 guys into one environment and 10 guys into another....

We can still be Werribee or Nth Ballarat, but not both. I think this is essential for our development....

 

[Maddox]

IMO in a perfect world we would have a sole affiliate or even a NM VFL team for the reasons you've stated. But is that even a viable option? I don't know.

 

[King Corey]

Johnny99 I'm coming round to this too. Really like North Ballarat's culture and being associated with a guy like Gerard Fitgerald. And Werribee are a good club too.

But it's hard to miss that the knock-on from NB's 3 flags in a row was SFA in terms of associated players emerging from North.

Box Hill looked and played like a junior facsimile of Hawthorn yesterday. Having a developmental team playing the North Melbourne style probably does have massive benefits.

Obviously $$$ is a big impediment. But apart from that I'm over with the dedicated reserves team faction now.

 

[hotham]

I'd like to know what Brad Scott really thinks about this issue. Anyway, if we're disadvantaged we just go to the AFL and ask for the money.

 

[Jimms]

I'd like to know what Brad Scott really thinks about this issue. Anyway, if we're disadvantaged we just go to the AFL and ask for the money.

it's one of his lowest priorities

 

[Only Forwards]

I'd like to know what Brad Scott really thinks about this issue. Anyway, if we're disadvantaged we just go to the AFL and ask for the money.

What are we Melbourne?

 

[Limerick]

Previous threads have indicated a cost factor of around $500k to run a reserve team. What is the cost of the current scenario i.e. what is the cost differential between the current and proposed. I'd very much favour North Ballarat being the NMFC reserve team IF the Ballarat community were on board as this would keep alive the play some home games in Ballarat once Tasmania gets its own team (and not ours).

 

[Johnny99]

it's one of his lowest priorities

In my opinion, it is the single most important issue facing the club's development of its drafted young players.

If we cant match the Coll-Geel-Hawks at this level (developing our young players), we will never be able to match them at senior level.

Look at Collingwood, yes they made the finals. But they also blooded 6-7 youngsters during the year.

Guys like Grundy and Kennedy and Thomas have stepped into the senior team and contributed from their first game.

Why ? Because they know their team mates, the team rules, the medicos and most importantly, the game plan.

Is it a conincidence Geel and Hawks will play in the Prelim final this week, and their reserve teams both cruised into the VFL GF ?

We need to get this right....

 

[R00StaR]

While we have long term aims with our Ballarat alignment it appears many of our delisted players enjoy hanging around at Werribee which is a major growth area.

Im wondering what sort of crowds other stand alone AFL clubs get at the VFL games? Where would we play, is Arden Street even possible anymore? Would/ could that revenue get close to break even?

 

[Event Horizon]

Previous threads have indicated a cost factor of around $500k to run a reserve team. What is the cost of the current scenario i.e. what is the cost differential between the current and proposed. I'd very much favour North Ballarat being the NMFC reserve team IF the Ballarat community were on board as this would keep alive the play some home games in Ballarat once Tasmania gets its own team (and not ours).

I think the key to both current alignments is that each of the two clubs want to very much retain their own identity. I am not sure North Ballarat would want to become North Melbourne Junior, playing out of Ballarat, which it would effectively need to become to serve our purpose fully.

I think we do need a team that plays tactically the same game as the seniors, and where players play in the position where Brad Scott would like to see them on any given day. To say that is not an advantage I think is simply unreasonable. It HAS to be an advantage. And not just because everyone else is doing it, but because there is a big difference between simply providing a facility for our players to get some match practice (which is the current situation) and a purpose built reserve side with North coaches. I think it's time we face up to reality and stop allowing commercial needs to dictate the circumstances that directly effect our long term player development.

 

[Tas]

It has pros and cons, people like to just reflect on the cons. I know a young kid who was constantly played out of position at Collingwood because they had too many players of a similar type in their squad, his development was hampered because of it.

How are you going to play 3 or 4 development ruckmen? Our dual affiliations have allowed us to develop multiple KPP in their respective positions. Winning and losing is not the important thing in the VFL games for us, the experience is.

Why do you think we have KPP coming out of every orifice? How many clubs are running with ruckmen we rejected as their number 1 ruckmen? Car Keys is about #6 down the list and he is desired by 3 clubs to be their #1. Our system allows us to develop more players in the position we want them to play.

Your competitiveness in terms of winning a flag is going to come down on the quality of the players you have outside your AFL squad. NB and Werribee quads could do with a bit of improvement in that aspect.

Both coaches work with our club in terms of the game plan we go with and how we go about it, we have a pretty close working relationship.

 

[muttley45]

put me in the stand alone reserves team camp, for all the reasons listed above by others, and i dont believe the economics side of the argument against, it just makes sense tbh

 

[Event Horizon]

It has pros and cons, people like to just reflect on the cons. I know a young kid who was constantly played out of position at Collingwood because they had too many players of a similar type in their squad, his development was hampered because of it.

How are you going to play 3 or 4 development ruckmen? Our dual affiliations have allowed us to develop multiple KPP in their respective positions. Winning and losing is not the important thing in the VFL games for us, the experience is.

Why do you think we have KPP coming out of every orifice? How many clubs are running with ruckmen we rejected as their number 1 ruckmen? Car Keys is about #6 down the list and he is desired by 3 clubs to be their #1. Our system allows us to develop more players in the position we want them to play.

Your competitiveness in terms of winning a flag is going to come down on the quality of the players you have outside your AFL squad. NB and Werribee quads could do with a bit of improvement in that aspect.

Both coaches work with our club in terms of the game plan we go with and how we go about it, we have a pretty close working relationship.

How many clubs have 3 or 4 development ruckmen? 2 would be more likely and it's easy - they share the load and learn how play as a forward for 50% of the game which is likely to be useful in the seniors. We can also choose to rest players when appropriate and allow others to take more of a leading role. Imagine Daw playing permanent forward for 3-4 weeks in a row, while we split the rucks between Mabon and Currie? Imagine Cam Delaney learning to play the Hansen role in VFL, which is the most suited to in the seniors, instead of being asked to man up on a forward of the type he'd never have to face in the AFL. Imagine Jacobs (when dropped early in 2013) being allowed to work on specific tasks and not worry AT ALL about the result, in order to get himself into North senior midfield. Imagine Speight (or anyone else for example) being asked to sit out the first half, only to come on midway through the third quarter as a sub and play without ANY interchange, to try and train him up as a potential full time SUB for North?

Frankly, I see ZERO cons.

 

[gokangas]

Have talked to several coaches and assistant coaches over the years about this subject and I think most believe stand alone team is best option for team development, but cost is a significant factor. One explained to me why dual alignemnt is good. You get more players playing at the top VFL level spread across two teams than if you had them all at one aligned team.

 

[Johnny99]

I think the key to both current alignments is that each of the two clubs want to very much retain their own identity. I am not sure North Ballarat would want to become North Melbourne Junior, playing out of Ballarat, which it would effectively need to become to serve our purpose fully.

I think we do need a team that plays tactically the same game as the seniors, and where players play in the position where Brad Scott would like to see them on any given day. To say that is not an advantage I think is simply unreasonable. It HAS to be an advantage. And not just because everyone else is doing it, but because there is a big difference between simply providing a facility for our players to get some match practice (which is the current situation) and a purpose built reserve side with North coaches. I think it's time we face up to reality and stop allowing commercial needs to dictate the circumstances that directly effect our long term player development.

Great post. Hit the nail on the head. Its looks good for the club to be expanding its supporter base in Werribee and Nth Ballarat. But at what point do we say, for example, sending C Delaney to Ballarat and A Kennedy to Werribee (two players that one day might play in the same backline in the seniors), is not a good idea. They should be playing together in the one reserve team, learning how the NMFC backline works....Then they are ready for senior footy.

We are giving opposition teams a massive on-field advantage, by splitting our squad into two environments, that ultimately north have no control over anyway.

We have to say, Werribee, Nth Ballarat, we will continue to be heavily involved in your communities, in the hope that you support us. But we cant continue to allow half our reserve squad to play with your teams. It is seriously affects our on-field performance...

 

[NM1990]

How many clubs have 3 or 4 development ruckmen? 2 would be more likely and it's easy - they share the load and learn how play as a forward for 50% of the game which is likely to be useful in the seniors. We can also choose to rest players when appropriate and allow others to take more of a leading role. Imagine Daw playing permanent forward for 3-4 weeks in a row, while we split the rucks between Mabon and Currie? Imagine Cam Delaney learning to play the Hansen role in VFL, which is the most suited to in the seniors, instead of being asked to man up on a forward of the type he'd never have to face in the AFL. Imagine Jacobs (when dropped early in 2013) being allowed to work on specific tasks and not worry AT ALL about the result, in order to get himself into North senior midfield. Imagine Speight (or anyone else for example) being asked to sit out the first half, only to come on midway through the third quarter as a sub and play without ANY interchange, to try and train him up as a potential full time SUB for North?

Frankly, I see ZERO cons.

That will never happen. Imagine how poor his fitness would become. Say he does become the greatest 1 quarter player ever to play the game, then one week we have a serious injury in the first quarter, so we effectively play 2 players down. No player will ever train to solely be a sub.

The rest of it I agree with though.

 

[Event Horizon]

That will never happen. Imagine how poor his fitness would become. Say he does become the greatest 1 quarter player ever to play the game, then one week we have a serious injury in the first quarter, so we effectively play 2 players down. No player will ever train to solely be a sub.

The rest of it I agree with though.

Not sure his fitness would be all that poor, if he played for close to a half of the game with ZERO interchanges. But it's just an example anyway. I just think in the future clubs may use this ploy to get around the interchange cap, by getting a fit specialist sub to play less game time, but with no interchanges, allowing other mids around him to rest more.

 

[Jimms]

Frankly, I see ZERO cons.

heres one. we field a reserves team, we can't pay 100% of the cap

 

[Event Horizon]

heres one. we field a reserves team, we can't pay 100% of the cap

That just means we need to raise more money or slow down the debt repayment or scrap Utah or whatever the club thinks is the best option. This needs to be a football decision. Hopefully we can finally get to that point.

I meant no football related cons.

 

[Tas]

How many clubs have 3 or 4 development ruckmen?

Almost every club? We have Currie, Mabon and Daw

If we didn't have two teams Mabon would be playing for the development team.

2 would be more likely and it's easy - they share the load and learn how play as a forward for 50% of the game which is likely to be useful in the seniors.

All ruckmen do that, but ours get accelerated due to the quality game time. Mabon's game has improved out of sight since Stephenson left.

We can also choose to rest players when appropriate and allow others to take more of a leading role. Imagine Daw playing permanent forward for 3-4 weeks in a row, while we split the rucks between Mabon and Currie?

Developing players need game time in the position we expect to play them at AFL level, not rest. We have had the luxury of just playing a guy for a quarter or two, post a long-term injury, our VFL clubs bend over backwards to do whatever is best for the player and I don't think disrespecting them with inaccurate information is a positive. We can rest anyone we want to rest, but overall, it is best for the kids to play.

Imagine Cam Delaney learning to play the Hansen role in VFL, which is the most suited to in the seniors, instead of being asked to man up on a forward of the type he'd never have to face in the AFL.

He can play any role we want him to, players do not usually learn to play an intercept role from inception, they need to learn the basics of being a good defender first. Hansen just wouldn't have been able to play the way he does without the years of experience.

Imagine Jacobs (when dropped early in 2013) being allowed to work on specific tasks and not worry AT ALL about the result, in order to get himself into North senior midfield.

Footballers never micro manage to that level, it wouldn't happen with a stand alone side either. Your examples are utterly unrealistic.

Imagine Speight (or anyone else for example) being asked to sit out the first half, only to come on midway through the third quarter as a sub and play without ANY interchange, to try and train him up as a potential full time SUB for North?

We wouldn't have the capacity to do this a lot as a standalone side, not unless you expected the other mids to carry much larger burdens in terms of game time. You examples are just unrealistic because the stuff you are talking about wouldn't happen with a stand alone team. You seem to think our affiliates restrict what we can do, that isn't the case.

Our restriction are just basic logistical limitations on any football team you put out on the park. If you want players to get meaningful experience you need to put a team on the park that is going to compete and stick to structures.

Frankly, I see ZERO cons.

Most stand alone teams do not have a development team, so if you do not get a crack in the big show you do not play. Development league is often a better learning environment for some players depending on their state of development and it can be a better entry point into football for players who are coming back from injury and who do not want a high intensity contest.

 

[LT Smash]

That just means we need to raise more money or slow down the debt repayment or scrap Utah or whatever the club thinks is the best option. This needs to be a football decision. Hopefully we can finally get to that point.

I meant no football related cons.

I think you have just destroyed your own argument. As a football decision, the football department has decided Utah and an advanced medical services budget is far and away the priority over a stand-alone reserves team.

 

[themilkman888]

It is seriously affects our on-field performance...

There are benefits to a standalone team, but to say not having one has seriously affected our on on field performance is not true.

The two clubs bend over backwards to accommodate North's wishes. With both coaches spending time during the week at Arden street. They manage players game time etc as per instruction. The play players as much as they can in the role North want.

 

[Event Horizon]

I think you have just destroyed your own argument. As a football decision, the football department has decided Utah and an advanced medical services budget is far and away the priority over a stand-alone reserves team.

Are you sure about that? How do you know that is the case?

 

[Johnny99]

Some people are saying $500 K a year to field your own side.

How can we generate this money ?
- Advertising. Sponsors on the front and back of the jumper. A few north games will be televised live on TV during the year.
- Offer a membership upgrade to attend home VFL games. $10 upgrade per membership, times 30,000, is $300,000.
- Ask the AFL. The AFL is determimed to equalise football dept spending. So I dont think they will knock back a request that would give north the same opportunity Coll, Geel and Hawks have.

When you think back to the last great team north had in the 90's. Carey, Longmire, Schwass, Stevens, Rock, Martyn, Archer, McKernan, etc. They all played together in the NMFC development teams, before playing seniors....

Having one reserve team really makes a difference....

 

[kool kangas]

Cost shouldn't be an issue for us seeing as the Bulldogs are the latest team to stand alone.