Mega Thread Essendon vs Richmond - Matchday Discussion

[TOOs_Finest]

Re: Essendon vs Richmond - Team Discussion

Resting Fwd - tall strong mark excellent set shot, can stand Ruck whilst Browne wanders back to the centre / pick up his man, pinch hit. is strong enough to play on opp talls, and very good at ground, although hasnt had much of a go at this as he is a champion extractor, and has been doing this since he cracked the side. Ok we might not have a ruck at all this week (if Griff does play and Gus misses) - well Tucky cld be sharing the pinch hitting w Posty and Viks.

Lol, cmon KcT. Now you make it sound like he is Jon Nicholls, James Hird and Michael Roach all rolled into one.

Perspective please

 

[Roachy8]

Re: Essendon vs Richmond - Team Discussion

Watching the vids of Hardwick + Richo with Lade on the RFC website and a couple of reports in the press this week... lot's and lot's of pretty words Tigers.

Big game this week... working on some areas... ups & downs of a young group.... put it behind us... every game you play you learn... etc... etc... etc

Gotta show something now Tigers.
The first 10 minutes will give insight into whether or not we really have learnt something

 

[CoggaRules]

Re: Essendon vs Richmond - Team Discussion

Watching the vids of Hardwick + Richo with Lade on the RFC website and a couple of reports in the press this week... lot's and lot's of pretty words Tigers.

Big game this week... working on some areas... ups & downs of a young group.... put it behind us... every game you play you learn... etc... etc... etc

Gotta show something now Tigers.
The first 10 minutes will give insight into whether or not we really have learnt something

From what i have seen Roacha, yep the first 10 minutes gives an insight but i have been watching Cotch closely and its uncanny how many games we have won or gone close, when Cotch is on the job big time in that first 10 minutes. Tipping he is the catalyst for us to ignite unfortunately, since there should be more. He goes up a few notches in the attack of the ball, its quite noticeable.

 

[Kapital city TIGER]

Re: Essendon vs Richmond - Team Discussion

Lol, cmon KcT. Now you make it sound like he is Jon Nicholls, James Hird and Michael Roach all rolled into one.

Perspective please

dude, I made no such claims that he was a combination of any great.
I think he is a champ in the role he has been playing, albeit a limited role (get ball, give ball to us / clear hopefully in our direction)

I dont think he would hope to be better than serviceable in any other possible roles, but the question was what else could he do to free up a spot in the middle for development, whilst still being in the 22.

Im suggesting he adds a certain amount of flexibility as a well rounded old school footballer, in a number of roles, whilst our young mids get time in the middle. Could really add some grunt when required, as a mid rotation, whilst still doing something useful, or trying to, in a number of other roles when not on the pine, and I think we have been really shown up without him.

He gets a fair bit of shite for hacking the ball, but thats part of the job - without him there have been plenty of skybound kicks / turnovers from 1st use of the ball by our mids. I guess its about percentages - how often can Foley /Cotch / Dusty / Nahas/ Conca / Edwards / Lids get the ball, break out with it and use it well, compared to Tucky ? I feel he gets it more, uses it less well,

The other aspect is how much pressure gets put on opp when they get 1st use, and I reckon Tucky tackles stick, plus if he is clearing at worst to 50/50 thats better than having opposition mids clearing the ball.

Which do you prefer? Tucky hacking ball to no good spot, or Chris Judd streaming goalward with the ball?

I appreciate that he isnt Gary Abblett (or even Dustin Martin for that matter), that he is getting close to the end of his AFL career, but reckon he is being sacrificed to aid development, a bit too harshly, and perhaps a bit prematurely, without being put to much use.

Generally Im pretty happy with the commitment to development weve seen the last couple of years, but reckon Tucky unfairly hard done by missing so much. Then again, perhaps he is pencilled into play later when / if youngsters run out of steam / we pick up an injury here or there.

 

[Roachy8]

Re: Essendon vs Richmond - Team Discussion

From what i have seen Roacha, yep the first 10 minutes gives an insight but i have been watching Cotch closely and its uncanny how many games we have won or gone close, when Cotch is on the job big time in that first 10 minutes. Tipping he is the catalyst for us to ignite unfortunately, since there should be more. He goes up a few notches in the attack of the ball, its quite noticeable.

Yup...
No doubt the Bummers will have some stinking tagger sitting inside Cotch's jock strap from the time he parks his car pre-game at Punt road so I will be looking for someone of the ilk of Jacko or Grigg to provide some AFL standard 'blocks' and assistance in the opening salvos.

 

[thecotch]

Re: Essendon vs Richmond - Team Discussion

Is Hislop any better? Is that what Dimma is trying to find out?

Same with Farmer, i actually rate Tuck way higher than Farmer & Hislop.

I'm just confused as there are contradictions in selections IMO

Nope. Hislop is even worse and I made my feeling known after selections were announced for this game. Bloke shouldn't be anywhere near an AFL list. Problem is, he's younger than tuck and maybe the coach sees something in him because i sure as hell can't.

 

[smasha]

Re: Essendon vs Richmond - Team Discussion

Yup...
No doubt the Bummers will have some stinking tagger sitting inside Cotch's jock strap from the time he parks his car pre-game at Punt road so I will be looking for someone of the ilk of Jacko or Grigg to provide some AFL standard 'blocks' and assistance in the opening salvos.

Keep dreaming.

Cotch will be held and the umpires will do nothing.
Grigg will come over to help out and the umps will pay a free to the Bummers.

Been happening all year to us.

 

[Roachy8]

Re: Essendon vs Richmond - Team Discussion

Keep dreaming.

Cotch will be held and the umpires will do nothing.
Grigg will come over to help out and the umps will pay a free to the Bummers.

Been happening all year to us.

Man you have an epic hatred of the umpires going on Smasha... not saying you are wrong, just thinking for your ongoing mental state and the health of your general digestive system, you really need to let go brother.

 

[Pweter]

Re: Essendon vs Richmond - Team Discussion

Plenty of comment here about you guys getting smashed in the ruck. All I'll say is many Dons supporters (me included) thought likewise in round 9 and that came back to bite us where your guys completely nullified our rucks then your mids cleaned up.

This is a good game to test Vickery in the ruck as Hille is not a crash and bash centre square ruckman, and Ryder is similar to Vickery (just jumps at the ball). Hille may monster him a bit around the ground, he'll have a good go against Ryder though.

Having said that, is it robbing Peter to pay Paul. Prior to this season, admitedly based on limited viewing, I thought Vickery was looking to be a bust but this season as a forward he is looking very good and worthy of the high pick. Why screw with the forward structures that got you this far to throw him in the ruck in a game where you could get your season started again?

 

[Rayzorwire]

Re: Essendon vs Richmond - Team Discussion

Was Nason just going to be a one year wonder???? a player picked to fill a gap for 1 year??? because he can kick?

Nason, Webberley etc. were played last year because Hardwick insisted we needed to get 50 games into them ASAP I seem to remember nut. I guess the question we should be asking now is; how long will it take these sort of players to reach the 50 game mark if every season another Helbig or two comes in and gets undeserved games ahead of them? And the same happens to Helbig next year, as he gets overlooked for a new 6-possession player Hardwick has a man-fetish about?

In hindsight the loss of Taylor, Roberts and with Nason going backwards, swapping Shulz for farmer and failing to pick 1 ruck for long term development has shown the 2009 pre-season as a big step backwards.

Fair call mate.

Bookmarked.

May I take this statement as representing your express permission that I can now dig your legion of embarrassing backflips and errors of judgement out of the archives and have fun with them anytime I please?

Can I start today? - I'll be at it for a month or two.

Also I do find it funny that you have seemingly turned on Hardwick already, yet even as late as early this year you were still defending TWs approach to list building/development and were suggesting that its thanks to his good work that we find ourselves in the position we currently are.

What I did was defend the drafting record of the Wallace era compared to what we'd done in the draft since its inception, and point out to you that if the blokes I defended as being capable of becoming good players (Vickery and Rance come to mind amongst others I had in the 'will' pile and you had in the 'probably not' pile) don't become good players as you then asserted was quite likely, then you're in for years of misery.

When we honestly look at the areas where genuine improvement is coming from, it's mostly from Wallace era draftees gaining their natural maturity and becoming players.

Dimma can't win can he.

Of course he could have cap, he had another easy benchmark to hit this season and the players to do it with.

If he was consistently following a worthwhile plan nobody would have a problem. Instead he's left himself stranded in no-man's land between winning and development and not doing either as well as we could and should have.

Go on..show us your real culture, the one that has ruled the roost for the last 2 decades...

If we have a quick look back through the archives, do you reckon sacking coaches would be seen as YOUR culture and perhaps that of most people here, or mine?

We won't sack Hardwick, we don't have the guts or the foresight, so why should I bother railing about it? I have zero faith in the ability of our heirarchy to choose the best coach available if they did move him on, so I'm ambivalent about whether it happens or not.

Saddest of all, I really don't care anymore.

Ironically, in hindsight, many people will look back at this year and wish to goodness we'd used all these FT funds to pay Hardwick out and get Malthouse.

So why not create a "winning" culture by combining the BEST performed kids with the BEST possible side ?

Dimmer's made an absolute art form out of missing most of the very simple stuff Neen, I guess we can only put it down to a combination of man-fetish syndrome and an abject lack of functioning brain cells - I'm yet to hear an explanation which rings more truly, nobody can defend his selection or coaching policies except to say 'we don't know what he's doing and why, but we have faith in him.'

I'm at the point where I ask; 'why have faith in people who are demonstrably dumb over and over again?'

The tigers won 4 straight last year, went close to making it 5...

You do realise that Tuck had mammoth games in every single one of those wins, and in our only remaining win of the year against Adelaide, where he was clearly BOG and got the 3 Brownlow votes? I bet he features heavily in the coach's votes throughout those games too.

And you do know that Graham was playing? And Nason?

So basically, all your highlights of Hardwick's coaching career are chock-full of good or downright awesome contributions from players he now refuses to pick, yet you want to use these highlights as evidence to show that he knows what he's doing?

Talk about helping out the prosecution.

The only games where Hardwick's looked like a vaguely competent AFL coach, is when either Tuck, or Graham, or both have been in the side and we therefore have more than just Jackson playing a lone defensive hand in the middle.

It's not a coincidence and we have every reason to be concerned about the mental faculties of a man-fetish obsessed coaching team completely unable to work this out.

 

[CoggaRules]

Re: Essendon vs Richmond - Team Discussion

Nason, Webberley etc. were played last year because Hardwick insisted we needed to get 50 games into them ASAP I seem to remember nut. I guess the question we should be asking now is; how long will it take these sort of players to reach the 50 game mark if every season another Helbig or two comes in and gets undeserved games ahead of them? And the same happens to Helbig next year, as he gets overlooked for a new 6-possession player Hardwick has a man-fetish about?



Fair call mate.



May I take this statement as representing your express permission that I can now dig your legion of embarrassing backflips and errors of judgement out of the archives and have fun with them anytime I please?

Can I start today? - I'll be at it for a month or two.



What I did was defend the drafting record of the Wallace era compared to what we'd done in the draft since its inception, and point out to you that if the blokes I defended as being capable of becoming good players (Vickery and Rance come to mind amongst others I had in the 'will' pile and you had in the 'probably not' pile) don't become good players as you then asserted was quite likely, then you're in for years of misery.

When we honestly look at the areas where genuine improvement is coming from, it's mostly from Wallace era draftees gaining their natural maturity and becoming players.



Of course he could have cap, he had another easy benchmark to hit this season and the players to do it with.

If he was consistently following a worthwhile plan nobody would have a problem. Instead he's left himself stranded in no-man's land between winning and development and not doing either as well as we could and should have.



If we have a quick look back through the archives, do you reckon sacking coaches would be seen as YOUR culture and perhaps that of most people here, or mine?

We won't sack Hardwick, we don't have the guts or the foresight, so why should I bother railing about it? I have zero faith in the ability of our heirarchy to choose the best coach available if they did move him on, so I'm ambivalent about whether it happens or not.

Saddest of all, I really don't care anymore.

Ironically, in hindsight, many people will look back at this year and wish to goodness we'd used all these FT funds to pay Hardwick out and get Malthouse.



Dimmer's made an absolute art form out of missing most of the very simple stuff Neen, I guess we can only put it down to a combination of man-fetish syndrome and an abject lack of functioning brain cells - I'm yet to hear an explanation which rings more truly, nobody can defend his selection or coaching policies except to say 'we don't know what he's doing and why, but we have faith in him.'

I'm at the point where I ask; 'why have faith in people who are demonstrably dumb over and over again?'



You do realise that Tuck had mammoth games in every single one of those wins, and in our only remaining win of the year against Adelaide, where he was clearly BOG and got the 3 Brownlow votes? I bet he features heavily in the coach's votes throughout those games too.

And you do know that Graham was playing? And Nason?

So basically, all your highlights of Hardwick's coaching career are chock-full of good or downright awesome contributions from players he now refuses to pick, yet you want to use these highlights as evidence to show that he knows what he's doing?

Talk about helping out the prosecution.

The only games where Hardwick's looked like a vaguely competent AFL coach, is when either Tuck, or Graham, or both have been in the side and we therefore have more than just Jackson playing a lone defensive hand in the middle.

It's not a coincidence and we have every reason to be concerned about the mental faculties of a man-fetish obsessed coaching team completely unable to work this out.

Get real dude. Do you not understand the meaning of the word rebuild?
How do you rebuild when you dont find out what you dont know, by trying it and leaving out what you do know?
Yes Tuck featured in that run, he also featured in the non run after it, so did Nason and so did Graham. You seem to side step that missed point.

The young team can only learn to hunt the ball and to get their own ball when they havent got someone making life a little easier, purely because he has a bigger body and not because of skill.

This man fetish thing is completely ridiculous from a coach who inherited a train wreck and is trying to rebuild it with totally, I repeat totally new parts.

 

[_RT_]

Re: Essendon vs Richmond - Team Discussion

Get real dude. Do you not understand the meaning of the word rebuild?
How do you rebuild when you dont find out what you dont know, by trying it and leaving out what you do know?
Yes Tuck featured in that run, he also featured in the non run after it, so did Nason and so did Graham. You seem to side step that missed point.

The young team can only learn to hunt the ball and to get their own ball when they havent got someone making life a little easier, purely because he has a bigger body and not because of skill.

This man fetish thing is completely ridiculous from a coach who inherited a train wreck and is trying to rebuild it with totally, I repeat totally new parts.

You are wasting your time Cogga. Seems like Hardwick is only allowed to take 18 months to fix a train wreck and turn it into a side that is capable of playing finals before some people start calling for his head. Be interesting to see how long it is before they come back around and start patting him on the back again.

 

[_RT_]

Re: Essendon vs Richmond - Team Discussion

May I take this statement as representing your express permission that I can now dig your legion of embarrassing backflips and errors of judgement out of the archives and have fun with them anytime I please?

Can I start today? - I'll be at it for a month or two.

Never ran away from my errors of judgement or any backflips I've done.

What I did was defend the drafting record of the Wallace era compared to what we'd done in the draft since its inception, and point out to you that if the blokes I defended as being capable of becoming good players (Vickery and Rance come to mind amongst others I had in the 'will' pile and you had in the 'probably not' pile) don't become good players as you then asserted was quite likely, then you're in for years of misery.

When we honestly look at the areas where genuine improvement is coming from, it's mostly from Wallace era draftees gaining their natural maturity and becoming players.

Deledio McGuane Thursfield White Graham Riewoldt Edwards Connors King Cotchin Rance Gourdis Vickery Post Hislop Nahas & Browne. Those in bold are the ones, I'd suggest, that have genuinely improved. The rest have either stagnated, gone backwards or haven't done enough to say for certain that they will be long term options. Of those that aren't highlighted its quite possible that up to 6 of them might not be on the list at seasons end with a couple of others only remaining out of necessity rather than talent. Pretty damning when you look at it like that just how much work Hardwick still has to do to turn things around.

 

[JAKLAUGHING]

Re: Essendon vs Richmond - Team Discussion

Plenty of comment here about you guys getting smashed in the ruck. All I'll say is many Dons supporters (me included) thought likewise in round 9 and that came back to bite us where your guys completely nullified our rucks then your mids cleaned up.

This is a good game to test Vickery in the ruck as Hille is not a crash and bash centre square ruckman, and Ryder is similar to Vickery (just jumps at the ball). Hille may monster him a bit around the ground, he'll have a good go against Ryder though.

Having said that, is it robbing Peter to pay Paul. Prior to this season, admitedly based on limited viewing, I thought Vickery was looking to be a bust but this season as a forward he is looking very good and worthy of the high pick. Why screw with the forward structures that got you this far to throw him in the ruck in a game where you could get your season started again?

...exactly...but we have BGriffiths down there hopefully he'll step up like vickery has of late...

And hopefully Vickery can show something in the ruck...

Hopefully...

 

[Rayzorwire]

Re: Essendon vs Richmond - Team Discussion

A coach must maximise his chances of being successful California. Always.

That means you don't just count 100% on the hope that our young midfielders will eventually become the players they currently aren't capable of being, you also hope like hell your veterans will continue to give you good service as long as they can.

There is every chance Tuck will be playing just as well in 2-3 years, Hardwick needed to capitalise on that possibility and nurture it as outstanding insurance - at the very least.

As I've said before, smart clubs do that, and I'm still waiting for just ONE example of a football club who refused to play a 29yo who would have finished top-3 in their B&F last year if played all season in his normal role, because he had nothing left to offer them, then turned in a massive fail for the year in all the areas he used to cover.

Doesn't happen - nobody has *ever* been that dumb. Comprende?

What happens next year when it's 'finals or else,' but we can even struggle against a GWS level side because they picked up Tuck for nothing and we still don't have any onballers who can beat him head to head? What happens to our finals ambitions when they start pumping us at the centre clearances too?

That's exactly what we saw happen against Port until Tuck came on, a bunch of 'nobodies' owning our 'stars' in the centre - because they can't get their hands on the ball enough and when they do they're not being set up in space, they're having to do all the ball scrambling and rushed disposals Tuck usually does just as well, and in many cases, far better.

What happens if we get 1-2 injuries in the midfield next year and its 'finals or else' Gary March style? Take away the Tuck, Connors, Morton we thought we'd be carrying in this year and as we've seen, our depth is not brilliant. Take a couple more away and we'd be very lucky to get out of the bottom-4. We've been pretty fortunate with injury in the midfield this year, next year when the club and Hardwick's reputation are fully on the line and we're still relying too heavily on 1st-3rd year players, we may not be so lucky.

I submit to you, that if our midfield doesn't magically (after all, we see no evidence of coaching doing any good) improve about 40% on this year's performance next year, and we lose a mid or two to injury and end up finishing 10th or worse with a handful of memorably dismal performances, you'll be lucky to find one Richmond supporter in twenty who won't want to hang Dimmer out the front of Punt Rd much more than they want to hear 'our young blokes just need a few more years' and 'Tuck wasn't part of our future, but [insert dud x] was.'

That's far too likely a scenario for me to be 'shutting up and showing faith'...or whatever it is you defenders of the indefensible think you're doing.

I call it like I see it, and right now I'm speaking up about being sick of watching a car accident in slow motion unfolding over a span of years this club simply can't afford.

We're nearly at last roll of the dice stage mate, if Hardwick's tenure fails miserably we'll NEVER make it back to being part of the 'big four' - we'll be lucky to survive, the club heirarchy will have burned too many people too many times.

 

[Ralll]

Re: Essendon vs Richmond - Team Discussion

Deledio McGuane Thursfield White Graham Riewoldt Edwards Connors King Cotchin Rance Gourdis Vickery Post Hislop Nahas & Browne. Those in bold are the ones, I'd suggest, that have genuinely improved. The rest have either stagnated, gone backwards or haven't done enough to say for certain that they will be long term options. Of those that aren't highlighted its quite possible that up to 6 of them might not be on the list at seasons end with a couple of others only remaining out of necessity rather than talent. Pretty damning when you look at it like that just how much work Hardwick still has to do to turn things around.

Edwards has improved and Nahas has stagnated?
I would say its the other way around.

Bit harsh putting Goudis and Post on that list, both still young and not getting games to really see we're theyre at yet.

 

[_RT_]

Re: Essendon vs Richmond - Team Discussion

Edwards has improved and Nahas has stagnated?
I would say its the other way around.

Based on the last 3 years rather than just this year, I'd suggest its the other way around. Nahas has no doubt been better this year but half a dozen to 10 games of ok footy doesn't make Nahas a certainty for me.

Bit harsh putting Goudis and Post on that list, both still young and not getting games to really see we're theyre at yet.

Ray and I are discussing players recruited under TW that is why they are on the list.

 

[tugga]

Re: Essendon vs Richmond - Team Discussion

What I find strange among our fans here is that:
a) They say Browne is a hack and want him out
b) They say Graham is a hack and want him out
c) They get exactly what they asked for and they are still not happy
d) Vickery gets his chance to show if he has progressed further than a 2nd tall forward by getting some quality ruck time and people are not happy about it
e) that they are generally not happy regardless of what happens at selection

Let's face it, Browne and Graham have been major flops this year. And yet they both get shown the door, and people still want one of them in.
Post, Griffiths and Vickery get the chance to take over this week and I reckon it's a good thing. Regardless, I think it's a step forward.

 

[_RT_]

Re: Essendon vs Richmond - Team Discussion

What I find strange among our fans here is that:
a) They say Browne is a hack and want him out
b) They say Graham is a hack and want him out
c) They get exactly what they asked for and they are still not happy
d) Vickery gets his chance to show if he has progressed further than a 2nd tall forward by getting some quality ruck time and people are not happy about it
e) that they are generally not happy regardless of what happens at selection

Let's face it, Browne and Graham have been major flops this year. And yet they both get shown the door, and people still want one of them in.
Post, Griffiths and Vickery get the chance to take over this week and I reckon it's a good thing. Regardless, I think it's a step forward.

Our supporters need to realise that small steps are the key, yet it would seem that most of them in here want to go from crawling to running in 1 step, rather than learning to walk first.

 

[copthat]

Re: Essendon vs Richmond - Team Discussion

What I find strange among our fans here is that:
a) They say Browne is a hack and want him out
b) They say Graham is a hack and want him out
c) They get exactly what they asked for and they are still not happy
d) Vickery gets his chance to show if he has progressed further than a 2nd tall forward by getting some quality ruck time and people are not happy about it
e) that they are generally not happy regardless of what happens at selection

Let's face it, Browne and Graham have been major flops this year. And yet they both get shown the door, and people still want one of them in.
Post, Griffiths and Vickery get the chance to take over this week and I reckon it's a good thing. Regardless, I think it's a step forward.

Agree. Same thing happened last week with Gourdis. Everyone was saying that they found out why he hasn't had a game all year, then when he got dropped everyone was saying he should've stayed in.

 

[theflea]

Re: Essendon vs Richmond - Team Discussion

Brilliant post

I agree there was always two paths to take - Picking the best side to win, or developing the youngsters. The match committee / Coach have taken neither path. It's not even a combination of the two. To outsiders, we look like were are tanking by not picking the best side, or developing the kids.

We can still make the eight - yet we are not picking the best possible side
We are not last - so there is no need to load up on kids

So why not create a "winning" culture by combining the BEST performed kids with the BEST possible side ?

Shane Tuck has been out of favor for two years - ever since he was told Adam Thomson was "ahead of him". Miller won't be part of the next premiership, he is there purely for leadership and presence. So why Miller, and not Tuck ? We actually wanted Cousins to stay on with our young developing midfield and he was older than Tuck. So it's not ONLY an issue with his age. In fact, I don't care how old a player is, if they can still play, and are in our best 22, they should be out there CREATING the winning culture for the kids to be a part of.

I think we are already playing ALL the kids that can play at this level already. The only exception is Helbig - He looks overwhelmed and will need more time at Coburg. Conca will be a star, as long as his game time is managed (which I think the club are doing very well). Bachelor is a real find for us - composed under pressure and great decision maker. Then we have the other older kids - Martin, Vickery, Nason, Astbury, Griffiths, Rance - these kids are growing into their roles - which is fantastic - but we are still thin on kids coming through. So are we already playing ALL the development players ?

Surely we can't be casting an eye over Hislop, Thursfield & McGuane. We have stamped Tuck's papers, so why are these guys getting a game ahead of Gourdis and Nason ? I know Morton has had time off, but surely, at this point of the season, he would be more value than Helbig and Grigg ?

I understand there is a fine line between picking "the best possible team" and picking a "development team", but the last two teams picked (Carlton and Essendon) have been neither. All I ask, as a member, is that we develop a winning culture for the kids to grow into. I don't think we are doing that, and I'm frustrated to the point where the year has been wasted - and we can still "mathematically" make the finals.

With the players available, I would have Nason, Tuck, Webberly, Graham in, and Grigg, Helbig, Browne and Hislop out. Farmer was OK against Carlton.

in my view there is no perfect way to select for the now or for the future given our terrible depth problems. tuck for instance may be ok to play now but its more than likely that he cant rotate thru the middle as he did before ie the pace of the game, plus also if hes in the middle what other players place does he take? now im not sure but im sure the match committee would have spoken about this at length and came to the conclusion that its better to train our young mids in the middle. of the players you've also mentioned farmer was awful last week and hope he doesnt play again. webbs looks out of his depth and our rucks are junk, nason im willing to give time. i think we are getting ahead of ourselves in that we are miles behind where we want to be, and the first step is to get a ruck who can stop the easy ball out of the centre. plus we need to poach one of the pies mid coaches as bucks will want some of his own people in the box as our mid coaching is terrible!!!
finally i reckon why some players come back from coburg with no form is the coburg experiment has failed and they are ten times worse off than rfc 1's

 

[Dustin Credible]

Re: Essendon vs Richmond - Team Discussion

What I find strange among our fans here is that:
a) They say Browne is a hack and want him out
b) They say Graham is a hack and want him out
c) They get exactly what they asked for and they are still not happy
d) Vickery gets his chance to show if he has progressed further than a 2nd tall forward by getting some quality ruck time and people are not happy about it
e) that they are generally not happy regardless of what happens at selection

Let's face it, Browne and Graham have been major flops this year. And yet they both get shown the door, and people still want one of them in.
Post, Griffiths and Vickery get the chance to take over this week and I reckon it's a good thing. Regardless, I think it's a step forward.

Excellent post

Need to have a good look at TV in the ruck. Hopefully for the rest of the season.

 

[theflea]

Re: Essendon vs Richmond - Team Discussion

dude, I made no such claims that he was a combination of any great.
I think he is a champ in the role he has been playing, albeit a limited role (get ball, give ball to us / clear hopefully in our direction)

I dont think he would hope to be better than serviceable in any other possible roles, but the question was what else could he do to free up a spot in the middle for development, whilst still being in the 22.

Im suggesting he adds a certain amount of flexibility as a well rounded old school footballer, in a number of roles, whilst our young mids get time in the middle. Could really add some grunt when required, as a mid rotation, whilst still doing something useful, or trying to, in a number of other roles when not on the pine, and I think we have been really shown up without him.

He gets a fair bit of shite for hacking the ball, but thats part of the job - without him there have been plenty of skybound kicks / turnovers from 1st use of the ball by our mids. I guess its about percentages - how often can Foley /Cotch / Dusty / Nahas/ Conca / Edwards / Lids get the ball, break out with it and use it well, compared to Tucky ? I feel he gets it more, uses it less well,

The other aspect is how much pressure gets put on opp when they get 1st use, and I reckon Tucky tackles stick, plus if he is clearing at worst to 50/50 thats better than having opposition mids clearing the ball.

Which do you prefer? Tucky hacking ball to no good spot, or Chris Judd streaming goalward with the ball?

I appreciate that he isnt Gary Abblett (or even Dustin Martin for that matter), that he is getting close to the end of his AFL career, but reckon he is being sacrificed to aid development, a bit too harshly, and perhaps a bit prematurely, without being put to much use.

Generally Im pretty happy with the commitment to development weve seen the last couple of years, but reckon Tucky unfairly hard done by missing so much. Then again, perhaps he is pencilled into play later when / if youngsters run out of steam / we pick up an injury here or there.

sorry disagree has been tried in that role on the fwd line and is just not good enough plus gets run off from too much. plus quit the dude shite mate!

 

[cAsEy_18]

Re: Essendon vs Richmond - Team Discussion

Definately an outsider looking in here on Richmond, but for mine as an Essendon supporter, I'm fairly happy with your team changes this week for 2 reasons:

1. Surely Tuck had to come in? His papers really must be stamped, and the focus really must be genuinely on youth for this guy to not be in the side.

2. Vickery playing #1 ruck. By no means am I saying he cannot do this, but him out of the forward line I believe leaves a huge hole. With teams putting multiple numbers on Riewoldt this season, Vickery has thrived forward. With him out of the forward line, defenders can afford to come off their man to help on Riewoldt with less fear.

Anyway, good luck tomorrow night, but we owe you for more than one occasion of recent, so I sure hope we bring the same intensity as last week.

 

[nut]

Re: Essendon vs Richmond - Team Discussion

Excellent post

Need to have a good look at TV in the ruck. Hopefully for the rest of the season.

Why??? he currently has been doing 5-10 minute stints in the ruck.... thats enough to see how he goes. Submitting him to anymore than that takes too much away up forward. Hopefully Griffith can fill the void.