GordonGecko
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AFLW 2024 - Round 8 - Chat, game threads, injury lists, team lineups and more.
Explain the forward press to me
- Thread starter stefoid
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- May 10, 2004
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Individual players don't go coast to coast on a basketball court that often as a %, and funnily enough, part of the reason the great slashers of the game don't do it all the time is because teams employ zones and presses.
Cousin of Daicos
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- Sep 17, 2007
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Pretty much. That game and the second Grand Final were pretty much perfect executions of the forward press.
The reason why Collingwood's is so successful when they bother to apply it is also because of a twist on it that Malthouse implemented after losing to the Cats in the 07 Prelim.
Buckley employed the press, which seemed to blend beautifully with Malthouse's relentless swarm gameplan (which he initiated SPECIFICALLY to beat Geelong).
Malthouse has been building their fitness for the last 3 or 4 years to be able to run non-stop and continue to chase and harass, and also anticipate who the next receiver of the ball was going to be.
The press on it's own isn't full proof. You need to add your 'own thing' to it to make it really work.
- Aug 15, 2009
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You need a lot of very fit players and some power forwards.
Every forward must be able to tackle and be willing to chase
The press is designed to destroy teams that over handball in the defensive 50.
To defeat it teams are trying a number of things including the long bomb to a player outside their defensive 50.
The problem is that not every player can be accurate enough and often enough for this to work.
Note also that Collingwood keep players in the back half unless the opposition all go forward. They use quick HBF's who can apply a lot of pressure and always stay on the goal side of the opposition. This means that even if a player marks the ball he cannot play on and must look sideways to find a team mate which slows down the side and gives Collingwood defenders a chance to get back and cover the forwards.
Every forward must be able to tackle and be willing to chase
The press is designed to destroy teams that over handball in the defensive 50.
To defeat it teams are trying a number of things including the long bomb to a player outside their defensive 50.
The problem is that not every player can be accurate enough and often enough for this to work.
Note also that Collingwood keep players in the back half unless the opposition all go forward. They use quick HBF's who can apply a lot of pressure and always stay on the goal side of the opposition. This means that even if a player marks the ball he cannot play on and must look sideways to find a team mate which slows down the side and gives Collingwood defenders a chance to get back and cover the forwards.
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- #55
Yes, msot of the time a concentration of players in one spot will win the ball against a zone, but the ball is in your back line and their forward line. If it doesnt win teh ball, they have how many free players in their own forward area? instant goal. Cant risk it.
LOL.Hi Rodney! didn't know you visit BF
Gold.
Heres what i know.
The press is moving your players forward to stop the opposition getting it out of the defensive 50.
There a different leval of presses. Collingwood for example push up the whole team to ahead of the centre in a hard press other dont go as far.
The idea of the press is to not allow it to get out of the forward 50.
17 on 18 is an advantage when using a well structured press. The team will work to allow that 1 player to be very effective without an opponent
If the opposition drops a player back in there forward 50 it then that leaves a player for you free 1 kick behind the play.
It works on % Yes sometimes they will break the press and score an easy goal but most times you can get a turn over and score a goal yourself.
It really killed geelong as it was designed to kill there Handball out of defense game. Geelong have now changed there plan.
Its hard for people to understand like back men who are expected to leave there man and set up a press.
The press is moving your players forward to stop the opposition getting it out of the defensive 50.
There a different leval of presses. Collingwood for example push up the whole team to ahead of the centre in a hard press other dont go as far.
The idea of the press is to not allow it to get out of the forward 50.
17 on 18 is an advantage when using a well structured press. The team will work to allow that 1 player to be very effective without an opponent
If the opposition drops a player back in there forward 50 it then that leaves a player for you free 1 kick behind the play.
It works on % Yes sometimes they will break the press and score an easy goal but most times you can get a turn over and score a goal yourself.
It really killed geelong as it was designed to kill there Handball out of defense game. Geelong have now changed there plan.
Its hard for people to understand like back men who are expected to leave there man and set up a press.
We put a pretty decent press in the first quarter when we played you.
But.....the key thing was that the Pies got killed in the clearances as well.
As far as combating it, we tend to switch then come back in board after the opp has run to the switching side to cover that space.
But...again, good players make a good game plan. And the game plan you use has to be one that works with the players you have.
Quite right. This is why so many analysts still strangely have Collingwood ahead of Geelong. Rightly or wrongly they believe that with Jolly in the side and our mid-fielders in form we will retake the dominance in the clearances and therefore be ahead of Geelong. It's all just supposition until proved but I think that's where they're coming from.
The forward press to me is making games better to watch. I have nticed a lot of people saying they love watching the eagles play due to our brand of footy.
Ie:
contested marking - often hurn will kick long to any of/combination of cox, darling, nicnat, kennedy, lynch either on either wind 70 out or straight up the guts. When we are stuck for run the usual choice (if the switch is not on) is a long bomb to a pack.
Long kicking - as above, hurn being the standout but layers raising their vision to see options over the top of other teams presses.
Open Counter-attacks - If the team does get through the press quickly they have a fair bit of space to work.
These are the biggest posotives of the press, beats defensively flooding by a long shot.
Ie:
contested marking - often hurn will kick long to any of/combination of cox, darling, nicnat, kennedy, lynch either on either wind 70 out or straight up the guts. When we are stuck for run the usual choice (if the switch is not on) is a long bomb to a pack.
Long kicking - as above, hurn being the standout but layers raising their vision to see options over the top of other teams presses.
Open Counter-attacks - If the team does get through the press quickly they have a fair bit of space to work.
These are the biggest posotives of the press, beats defensively flooding by a long shot.
- Feb 19, 2011
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The press is not just the forward fifty but about 80 metres out. When the full back kicks back in, the forwards have to hold the ball up by making the received player go back on the mark and then kick. In this time, the press moves further back and covers the zone again, forcing another congested and contested possession situation.
When it doesn't work is when the 2nd player is allowed to quickly play on (especially running around) and kick outside the zone before the structure has moved back and is in place. Collingwood did that to Geelong in the last game about three times in row, quick long kicks from the back, over the zone completely and easy possession and goal.
When it doesn't work is when the 2nd player is allowed to quickly play on (especially running around) and kick outside the zone before the structure has moved back and is in place. Collingwood did that to Geelong in the last game about three times in row, quick long kicks from the back, over the zone completely and easy possession and goal.
Great thread!
Another Collingwood point, they play more midfielders than a lot of other teams, including Leigh Brown, so they can often win a lot more clearances in the second half as thier 10 very good mods wear down an oppositions 5 very very good mids and five ordinary mids.
Another Collingwood point, they play more midfielders than a lot of other teams, including Leigh Brown, so they can often win a lot more clearances in the second half as thier 10 very good mods wear down an oppositions 5 very very good mids and five ordinary mids.
Geelong is doing this now with Josh Hunt. Get the ball to him and he pinpoints a kick to a guy on the wing 60 metres away.
I have noticed several clubs have adopted the long kick to the wing, seems to be the best way through if you're having trouble breaking down the press.
Malthouse has acknowledged that his version of the press (which I think is a variation on Hawthorn's rolling flood) was designed to shut down the Geelong fast handballing method. He correctly identified this as providing a rapid release from the defensive 50 leading to a lot of forward 50 entries, and devised a method to shut it down. Given that the press is designed to counter the handball-happy game, it makes sense to try to beat it with long kicking and faster ball movement across the ground, rather than just between players.
I would like to see more teams have the courage to allow the opposition to flood their defensive 50 and to concentrate their numbers in the midfield. Plenty of players can kick 60 metres. If you can get it to the middle and avoid an opposition mark then you potentially have a 50:50 in the middle of the park where you have several extra numbers.
This is the other area where I reckon counter-press tactics have to evolve. For the Pies this player is generally O'Brien or Maxwell floating around and seeming to get heaps of the ball - in reality they are benefiting from the work done by the forward press which causes the opposition to desperately kick to this space. If you throw a guy here who can cover a lot of ground (O'Brien) then you can really kill teams.
For Geelong this would be Mackie some of the time, Scarlett also comes up and plays this role a bit.
Way to keep the thread team-agnostic as requested by the OP
Fitness is important (I won't debate your "fittest blah blah") but one aspect of the press is that it can make the other team work really hard while your guys just have to go to a particular area and then patrol it. If they are well enough drilled I reckon it can reduce workload compared to running all over the place following the play.
- Thread starter
- #66
This is the bit that interests me. There is the ground in a kickout situation. The 'x's are kicking out, and the 'o's have flooded their own forward half.
To prevent the 'x's from having free men in their own forward half, the 'o's have also pushed their entire forward line up into their defensive half.
goal-----------d50---------centre----------F50-----------goal
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ball-*----o---o----o----o----o----------------
----x-----x---x----x---x----x----------------
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goal-----------d50---------centre----------F50-----------goal
so what if instead of pushing all their players inside their own defensive half, they set up like this? The kicker just has a blocker or two near the goal square, and plays on. The blockers give him space to run 20m before hoofing it 70m to the centre of the ground.
The idea being that the press is outnumbered in the across the centre area of the ground (wing or middle, it doesnt matter)
Its rolling the dice for sure because if the 'o's win the ball, they can spot up a free guy near to goal. But if the 'x's win the ball, they can hack it forward and have numbers running onto it towards their own forward 50.
goal-----------d50---------centre----------F50-----------goal
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ball-*----o---o----o----o----o----------------
----x----------------x--x--x--x--x--x--------
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goal-----------d50---------centre----------F50-----------goal
Good thread and good post.
No single tactic is going to clear the press.
Points 2 and 3 are a variation of the same point - you'd like to take the contested mark but if you can't, at least force a contest. The kicker can run with the ball with some blocking from team-mates and kick to a target well outside the 50 but it's not going to land outside the press. The defensive team needs to be able to set up marking targets on both sides so they don't become too predictable. I know we're trying to be agnostic but Melbourne used this tactic almost exclusively against Collingwood on QBW and failed spectacularly - Collingwood spoiled the kick easily (no Jamar), won the ground contest and kicked it straight back where it came from to Cloke or Dawes. As stated in a number of posts - winning the contested ball is key.
Point 1 has to be employed in addition to Point 2/3 and the press is rarely perfect. It is high-risk high-reward but to beat the press you have to be prepared to kick into it to a free man 30+ out. It requires your very best kickers and great courage of your convictions. The receiver has to play on and needs to receive blocking support from nearby defenders. The receiver has to mobile and also has to be a great kick. He should be able to run and kick over the press. This requires pace at the back of the press in addition to the aerial contested players (who are there for Point 2/3). You really need strong marking players who are mobile and have great endurance - Travis Cloke is the archetype.
Sometimes Point 1 is not going to work and when it doesn't it'll be a spectacular fail - a turnover close to goal and an almost certain goal against. Your FD has to have nerves of steel and your kickers need to be able to cope with great pressure and everyone has to understand that sometimes it wont come off. But when it does work it will disrupt the structure of the press and cause the pressing team to adjust the density of their press closer to goal and therefore open up point 2/3 more.
As suggested in some other posts, some clustering of players on the defending team in these areas will help the effectiveness of both tactics. The pressing team really needs to distribute its players fairly evenly in the zone and this can be exploited to some extent. What I see happening now is the defending team also distributes its players evenly and some are never in a position to be used. Clustering will particularly help with the blocking required.
Using a mix of the two tactics is the way to penetrate the press but it requires great kicking skills in the defenders close to goal and great contested ball winning skills, pace and endurance at the back of the press. One of the biggest shifts in the "modern" game is that you need your most skillful players in your backline.
When will someone acknowledge the fact that the forward press was a tactic born from soccer?
I LOL at the fact that people are giving Mick Malthouse credit for inventing the forward press. Its a crock of rubbish. Hes just taken a tactic invented in soccer by Andres Villa Boas and slightly altered it into one that can be used in a AFL setup.
Collingwood didnt invent the forward press, soccer and more specifically Andres Villa Boas did.
I LOL at the fact that people are giving Mick Malthouse credit for inventing the forward press. Its a crock of rubbish. Hes just taken a tactic invented in soccer by Andres Villa Boas and slightly altered it into one that can be used in a AFL setup.
Collingwood didnt invent the forward press, soccer and more specifically Andres Villa Boas did.
GordonGecko
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Full court D in basketball?
By the attackers for a full game? IMO not quite the same. Similar to soccer, Malthouse uses half of his defense in a creative sense and only the other half to truly sit back and defend. He also uses his main attacking weapons as his main defensive weapons. Something that would never happen in a basketball full court D as you would still want your attacking weapons available on the counter
Pressure on the ball carrier in the forward half of the ground to keep it locked in
Firstly, I just have to wonder at why anybody gives a flying f**k who invented the press. Some strange comments in this thread!
I believe that plenty of teams actually do try this but from what I've seen they start out with full intent to do it but invariably it can be very dangerous and after a few rebound goals they go back to what they know best. Yes lots of players can kick 50+ metres but precious few can do it accurately enough and that's where it usually comes undone. The reason why short passing in normal circumstances is effective is that it's not especially difficult to put the ball to the advantage side of your team mate over short distance. Over longer distance the advantage is far more difficult to calculate because the ball will be in the air for a much longer time allowing a defender to get to the contest. As such the ball needs to be put much further to the advantage side to allow your team mate to run on to it. Given that fact, it naturally follows that it takes far less defenders to defend an area 60m downfield unless the pass is absolutely pinpoint perfect.
It's not easy to kick it short into the press either with Cloke or Dawes on the mark jumping up and down and waving their arms around and a number of Collingwood players around 10-12 metres from your target*. You need to be a very good decision maker, very good kick and have very steady nerves. You also have to be prepared to concede some goals. But you've got to do it if you want to disrupt the structure of the press.
*MCG has an area of 25,000 sq.m fence to fence:
http://www.mcg.org.au/The MCG Stadium/Facts and Figures.aspx
Take out 500m (perimeter) x 5m (boundary line) = 2,500 sq.m
That gives 22,500 sq.m playing surface
Half the ground covered by the press is say 12,000 sq.m because the back of the press is in the middle of the ground.
18 players covering 12,000 sq.m is about 660 sq.m per player
Square root of 660 is about 25m
That means the players in the press are about 25m apart.
That means a target in between these press players is about 10-12m away.
DonDraper
Premiership Player
No matter what your views are on the press, it's never been more important to have a few players in your side who are exceptional long and accurate kicks of the pill. There will be a high emphasis on drafting players who have great foot skills and can use the ball, more so than just ball magnets
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