On the Couch question - Would you rather have two elite key forwards or key backs?

[Ambrosia]

I think the numbers would be similar as to those going back or forward, there have been a few successes both ways, I think you're under estimating the skills required as a backman when you say those players could go back and be top level in 3 or 4 games, as a backman you stand under a lot of packs, as a forward you are that pack.

Can you name any that struggled as back then flourished when moved forward?

 

[StillAtLarge]

I've never seen a team with an average back six win a flag. You can manufacture goals but you can't manufacture miserly defending imo. I reckon 80% of premiership teams in the afl era would have a stronger defence than forward line

 

[M Malice]

 

[Morro]

If the rest of your team is crap, might aswell have elite KPF's as no matter how good defenders are, when the ball comes in under little pressure, its easy goals usually.

If you are in the window, as proven recently by Dees and Pies, you want the KPD's

 

[Tiger2709]

Can you name any that struggled as back then flourished when moved forward?

Im not sure a struggling back is going to improve moving forward but plenty of decent backs have moved forward and succeeded, no doubt small forwards move back often and succeed I cant think of many big forwards moving back off the top of my head, Im sure there are a few?

 

[Ambrosia]

Im not sure a struggling back is going to improve moving forward but plenty of decent backs have moved forward and succeeded, no doubt small forwards move back often and succeed I cant think of many big forwards moving back off the top of my head, Im sure there are a few?

Ben Reid, Michael Hurley, James Sicily, Liam Jones, Darcy Moore, Mitch McGovern, Josh Battle, Patrick McCartin and Esava Ratugolea were all average forwards before moving to defence and that’s just off the top of my head.

The McKay twins are a good example of this question. Ben is playing like a top 5 KPD in the comp and Harry is playing like a top 5 KPF assuming their form holds is anyone taking Ben over Harry? I don’t think so

 

[Robroy22]

Good D is so good tho.
Defence that is, very important in modern football.

Collingwood, Dees, two recent premiers with average KPF. Nice small and not so smalls fwiw tho: Kozzie, Hill, Elliot, Fritsch.

I get that sides can win flags with adequate forwards and strong defences/midfields BUT...to win more flags you need KPF's it just makes life so much easier.

 

[Robroy22]

Geelong under Malcolm Blight had 2 elite forwards - Ablett and Brownless (3 if you included Stoneham), but couldn’t win a premiership because its defence was average.

Under Bomber Thompson Cats had 2 elite back men - Scarlett & Egan / Taylor, and a forward line led by Cam Mooney. Won 2 premierships.

Therefore - key backs are the key IMO

Geelong under Malcom Blight also had to play GUN teams who had MORE elite forwards (Brereton, Dunstall, Curran...) whilst Geelong under Bomber beat who??? Port, StKilda (who were the epitome of a defensive side) and a beaten up Pies outfit in 2011. GUN key forwards win games

 

[Toump Ass]

Carlton have two Coleman medalists and they haven't got past the prelim.
Dees won a flag with Thomas MacDonald and Ben Brown

50

Ben Brown

Age

31

Ht

200cm

Wt

100kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

10.7

3star

K

7.7

3star

HB

3.0

3star

M

4.8

5star

T

1.2

3star

G

2.2

5star

D

7.9

2star

K

6.3

3star

HB

1.6

1star

M

3.7

4star

T

0.9

2star

G

1.0

4star

D

8.0

2star

K

4.6

2star

HB

3.4

3star

M

4.4

4star

T

1.4

4star

G

1.2

4star

...

 

[Robroy22]

Im not sure a struggling back is going to improve moving forward but plenty of decent backs have moved forward and succeeded, no doubt small forwards move back often and succeed I cant think of many big forwards moving back off the top of my head, Im sure there are a few?

Chris Tarrant went OK.

 

[Robroy22]

Carlton have two Coleman medalists and they haven't got past the prelim.

Playing a losing PF to Brisbane at the "Gabbatoir" (as it was in 2023) is no real measure. Also Brissy have a couple of fairly athletic if somewhat flakey key forwards themselves.

 

[Robroy22]

Can you name any that struggled as back then flourished when moved forward?

Mihocek has done a wonderful job since arriving as Key Back Depth in the midseason draft?

 

[TheKanga]

From a North perspective
Definitely two key backs.

 

[Ambrosia]

Mihocek has done a wonderful job since arriving as Key Back Depth in the midseason draft?

He was largely a forward at VFL then got drafted off one season as a defender. Do agree he has been excellent though

 

[Shane Heard]

As you may have seen last night, this was one of the big questions posed. What would your answer be?

Lever /May

Fletcher/Wellman



That is all.

 

[Shane Heard]

From a North perspective
Definitely two key backs.

I’ll say it….Thank you for all those wonderful practice matches afforded to Ben.

You really did us a solid

 

[Shane Heard]

I've never seen a team with an average back six win a flag. You can manufacture goals but you can't manufacture miserly defending imo. I reckon 80% of premiership teams in the afl era would have a stronger defence than forward line

90

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

Elite KPFs are harder to find IMO.

Easier to find a solid KPD and make it work if you've got absolute stars up forward.

I reckon the opposite.

I agree that elite key forwards seem to be harder to find - but in modern AFL footy unfortunately good defence beats good offence.

Historically it seems that more premiership teams have 'good' key forwards, rather than superstars. Workhorses, consistent, don't get outmarked sort of guys.

 

[adammania9]

There is a greater correlation of winning premierships with elite defenders than elite forwards

 

[Kappa]

If the rest of your team is crap, might aswell have elite KPF's as no matter how good defenders are, when the ball comes in under little pressure, its easy goals usually.

If you are in the window, as proven recently by Dees and Pies, you want the KPD's

If your team is crap then the KPD will get way way more involved in the play than KPF.

 

[Engimal v3]

Well we have no KPDs and we're rooted, so that tells you my answer

 

[Kappa]

Well we have no KPDs and we're rooted, so that tells you my answer

Didn't you land Aiden Corr?

 

[Catfish Alley]

Forwards easily. Not going to win without putting a score on the board. It's much easier to develop a player into a key back. One of my teams best ever (Scarlett) was a forward in his junior days. There are a lot of stories like that. Not as much the other way around. A gun forward is more natural instinct.

 

[pie chucker]

KPF's for me. I always think KPD's are just failed forwards (being a little facetious). Moore and Reid were both tried as forwards at the start of their careers and ended up AA KPD's.

I think KPD's are vitally important but they can be manufactured to a point. Howe is a good example.

Having a Buddy, Hawkins, Cloke (in his day), Reiwoldt was vital to those premiership teams.

 

[Freomaniac]

Well we have no KPDs and we're rooted, so that tells you my answer

good point