Coach Fages and the coaching group

[Johnny Bananas]

Which coach would people like to see come in when Fagan chooses to hang it up? Is Nigel Lappin still considered a good target? He's gone into development coaching since 2021 it seems.

 

[martinson]

We have Fort? Also which ruck from the leagues is ready made to come in that we missed? We drafted Oscar when he was 23 and it still took him years of games to develop behind Martin. Matt Flynn? Tom Hickey? Ivan Soldo? Sam Naismith? All worse than Oscar and the best of them were being offered a top job with much more money than we should have reasonably been offering.

Also our top priority for small forwards would have understandably been Jaime Elliott, who has been a match winner for them in so many close games. Mihocek as well would have been considered more dangerous than Hill as well for understandable reasons. Bobby had an amazing game but let’s not revisit history and say that he was the number one forward threat.

I’m not sold on Fagan either but these are some terrible points.

I'm not an Itoldya sort of person but I did flag in here 2 or 3 times that the biggest threat to us in the GF was Hill , then De Goey.

It was not just me but off the back of some smartees who were sceptical of our set up matching Hill. That we needed to put a lot of effort into Hill.

It was certainly no surprise what happened once the game started up. We had the guys to match ok with Mihocek and Elliot . Hill was always the biggest issue imo. And we walked straight into it.

Obviously the way they were able to get it over the back to him precipitated it.

 

[Kickback Flip]

Which coach would people like to see come in when Fagan chooses to hang it up? Is Nigel Lappin still considered a good target? He's gone into development coaching since 2021 it seems.

I would like Justin Leppitsch as coach. He was the tactical mastermind behind Richmond's success and Collingwood's premiership last year. The only problem is, I don't think he would come back to Brisbane after getting the flick in 2016. I think there still might be some bad blood between Justin and Greg Swann.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

I would like Justin Leppitsch as coach. He was the tactical mastermind behind Richmond's success and Collingwood's premiership last year. The only problem is, I don't think he would come back to Brisbane after getting the flick in 2016. I think there still might be some bad blood between Justin and Greg Swann.

Yeah Leppa probably has too many bad memories coaching here. I'd try someone else.

 

[Squizz89]

Hmmm watching the game back I couldn’t see our spare set up in our D50 like theirs was, so can only assume ours was up around the ball, which I guess encouraged the handball happy game plan to try and run it out using our spare. Certainly wasn’t the weather to be trying that.

Would’ve been better either manning their spare up forward (preferable option), or going an extra in defence like they did.

I guess whilst it’s unlikely the coaches directed them to play the over-possessive game, the way we set up could’ve “pushed” the players into playing that way.

I guess the coaches argument to not playing the spare in D50, would be our usual spare in Lester had his hands full with Cameron.

 

[Schache_off]

Amazing how a few losses can bring out the new coach chat. I can't see Fagan possibly finishing up with the lions until end of next season at the earliest if things continue to go poorly. Unless we go on to lose every game from here for this season then he would be a chance.

New coach that the board think is the right person isn't necessarily going to be the right coach for our playing group and could fail spectacularly.

 

[martinson]

Amazing how a few losses can bring out the new coach chat. I can't see Fagan possibly finishing up with the lions until end of next season at the earliest if things continue to go poorly. Unless we go on to lose every game from here for this season then he would be a chance.

New coach that the board think is the right person isn't necessarily going to be the right coach for our playing group and could fail spectacularly.

There's no chance of us not fulfilling Fagan's contract. The only way that would happen is if he so chose. And it just doesn't seem in his nature to do that if we haven't achieved the goal.

So talk of any replacements is just fantasy stuff.

But I do think the time is coming where he embraced some sort of succession plan. Particularly if we have an ordinary year this year.

 

[martinson]

So in other words, we’ll just sit on our hands and do nothing expecting what hasn’t worked for six years to somehow change all of a sudden next year with a squad that just keeps getting older and less likely?

Each to their own but I’d rather roll the dice on someone else with new ideas and being in a suite of new personnel opposed to roll with what we know doesn’t work and in actuality is looking more and more unlikely and further apart. Anyway, I trust Fages to do what’s right and if the season does peter out, I’d like to take him for his word that he’ll put the club before himself.

On top of that this window is fast closing and why not have one last roll of the dice with new ideas and challenge the players that no one’s position is safe.

My personal view McIvor is that we are going to need a new voice if not now it's not that far off. Look what that has done for Collingwood and Carlton . Collingwood had some level level of success under Buckley making a GF and a Prelim. in '18 and ' 19. His w/l record stood at 53% , Fagan's is 55.

We would however have to be very careful. Our situation is probably more fragile. These things can often go wrong. Fagan is a safe pair of hands as far as the stability of the club goes. It's just my personal view and I understand why others would think differently.

But whatever , I don't think there's any hope of it happening.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

Amazing how a few losses can bring out the new coach chat. I can't see Fagan possibly finishing up with the lions until end of next season at the earliest if things continue to go poorly. Unless we go on to lose every game from here for this season then he would be a chance.

New coach that the board think is the right person isn't necessarily going to be the right coach for our playing group and could fail spectacularly.

Having a think about our next coach doesn't mean we necessarily want to get rid of Fagan before his contract is up. It just means we want to look a step ahead, because it's doubtful he'll sign another contract after this one runs out.

 

[martinson]

The thing that Fagan can hang his hat on is that he saw us through some tough years and reset the ship. And made the finals 5 times.

Buckley actually got the Pies into the finals 5 times and they played in a GF ,Prelim and another final in the 3 years prior to his sacking. So that's a reasonably good record.

 

[kylegee28]

So in other words, we’ll just sit on our hands and do nothing expecting what hasn’t worked for six years to somehow change all of a sudden next year with a squad that just keeps getting older and less likely?

Worked pretty well for Geelong in 2006, Hawthorn in 2010, Richmond in 2016, Melbourne in 2020...

And don't forget that pundits were calling for Chris Scott's head after a few seasons of early finals exits.

 

[martinson]

Worked pretty well for Geelong in 2006, Hawthorn in 2010, Richmond in 2016, Melbourne in 2020...

And don't forget that pundits were calling for Chris Scott's head after a few seasons of early finals exits.

You can find examples both ways.

Clarko was never under any threat at Hawthorn except Kennett completely went rogue off his nut.

A significant difference is that those clubs were all coming off long periods of failure , albeit Hawthorn did make a GF in 2008.

Success breeds complacency as a general rule. If you look at those 4 clubs as the benchmark for this century they'd all been in the doldrums for many years before the success came. And they won flags almost instantly. We've been up there for 5 years for no flags.

Not drawing any conclusions from that necessarily. How many teams have stuck with coaches for too long ? The list is much longer.

 

[martinson]

Worked pretty well for Geelong in 2006, Hawthorn in 2010, Richmond in 2016, Melbourne in 2020...

And don't forget that pundits were calling for Chris Scott's head after a few seasons of early finals exits.

Interesting exercise

Thompson had been at Geelong 7 years with a best place 4th and 10th the year before they won a flag

Hardwick had been at Richmond 7 years with a best place 7th and 13th the year before they won a flag

Clarkson had been at Hawthorn 6 years making a GF once and finishing 7th before the review , then finishing 3rd before they won a flag

The Roos/Goodwin thing had been in place at Melbourne for 7 years with a best placed 4th and finishing 17th and 9th before they won a flag

Which ,if you think that's of any significance shows that your best chance of having a successful era and winning flags is not if you've been playing finals for a few years but if you come out of nowhere after a period of relative failure.

 

[Schache_off]

So in other words, we’ll just sit on our hands and do nothing expecting what hasn’t worked for six years to somehow change all of a sudden next year with a squad that just keeps getting older and less likely?

Each to their own but I’d rather roll the dice on someone else with new ideas and being in a suite of new personnel opposed to roll with what we know doesn’t work and in actuality is looking more and more unlikely and further apart. Anyway, I trust Fages to do what’s right and if the season does peter out, I’d like to take him for his word that he’ll put the club before himself.

On top of that this window is fast closing and why not have one last roll of the dice with new ideas and challenge the players that no one’s position is safe.

I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that I said we will just sit on our hands? Quite a pessimistic view to say that it hasn't worked for 6 years don't you think? Bottom side to consistent top 4 with a win/loss record that is up there with the best in recent times isn't too bad.

Strong disagree that our window is closing fast. In terms of key players, Neale is 31, Danniher and Cameron are 30 this year. I'd be surprised if we don't get till 2028 with those players still in our best team.

 

[martinson]

I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that I said we will just sit on our hands? Quite a pessimistic view to say that it hasn't worked for 6 years don't you think? Bottom side to consistent top 4 with a win/loss record that is up there with the best in recent times isn't too bad.

Strong disagree that our window is closing fast. In terms of key players, Neale is 31, Danniher and Cameron are 30 this year. I'd be surprised if we don't get till 2028 with those players still in our best team.

Geez Schache.

That's another 3 full seasons after this season.

Do you think ?

Zorko's a bit of a one off but he's had the last 2 riddled with injury.

Can't see Joe wanting to be playing in 4 years time. Lachie's been carrying things for 3 years now. Charlie .Nah.

With this group next year is the year imo.

 

[Squizz89]

The last few years must’ve killed “Lordo”. Can’t even string a sentence together.

 

[rye]

bit more optimistic than others. think we're still finding what our best footy looks like after losing coleman and doedee having a major set back. zorko is almost impacting games as much as he was in that 2021 season where he wound the clock back and was the best player in the comp for a period there. players like answerth and lohmann taking opportunities with both hands. tunstill looked clean in challenging conditions and probably got less time around the ball than we would have liked givne JL got subbed on.

im not sure how we go from here, but i would not be surprised if everything clicked for us in the back end of the year, we welcome ashcroft back and go on a bit of a run.

 

[martinson]

The last few years must’ve killed “Lordo”. Can’t even string a sentence together.

a

Is this where we turn it around then ?

Both of those guys have always hated us ,especially Hutch.

 

[3KZ is Football]

So in other words, we’ll just sit on our hands and do nothing expecting what hasn’t worked for six years to somehow change all of a sudden next year with a squad that just keeps getting older and less likely?

Each to their own but I’d rather roll the dice on someone else with new ideas and being in a suite of new personnel opposed to roll with what we know doesn’t work and in actuality is looking more and more unlikely and further apart. Anyway, I trust Fages to do what’s right and if the season does peter out, I’d like to take him for his word that he’ll put the club before himself.

On top of that this window is fast closing and why not have one last roll of the dice with new ideas and challenge the players that no one’s position is safe.

What? Take away their Mulligans? That would be like telling a three year old that they have had enough i-pad time. Fagan had got almost the entire senior team addicted to the idea that they are undroppable. They would all have meltdowns. Can anyone seriously imagine Hipwood, Rayner or Starcevich going back to the reserves for a stint to find form? These blokes know they will NEVER be dropped and play accordingly

 

[3KZ is Football]

Actually, when you look at the Senior team, the following players have never been dropped under Fagan and can be confident they never will be, no matter how terrible their form is. They could stink it up for weeks on end and they know they will be playing the following week regardless.

Andrews
Bailey
Berry
Cameron
Daniher
Dunkley
Hipwood
McCarthy
McCluggage
McInerney
Neale
Rayner
Starcevich
Wilmot

Some champs in that list for sure, but with the exception of Neale, Dunkley and Wilmot, some very lazy champs. Hit, miss, win, lose, bludge or try - it doesn’t matter. The nexus between form and selection has been broken because we have 14 players who know they really don’t have to fight for their spot in the team. Fagan appears so reluctant to drop Gardiner that he cooked up some completely BS ‘role’ for him in the forward line. What a farce. Next round, the only way Gardiner can stay in the team is if Payne is dropped and Gardiner goes back, but with McKenna available, Fagan is probably wishing it was 2022 and he could drop Lester all over again. What a mess!

So all this effort goes into protecting some players , while on the other hand, Lester’s career was hampered by Fagan seeming to adopt an Anyone But Lester policy for a number of years and then playing and dropping him regularly because clearly he wasn’t rated. That player rating proved to be a massive misread from the coach. Prior and Robertson? They are dropped with no compunction. Answerth, Fort, Ah Chee, Tunstill, Lehman and Lyons will be dropped without a ‘beg your pardon’ as soon as some whipping boys are required.

This is not a healthy situation and it is one entirely of Fagan’s making.

 

[Grasshopper17]

What? Take away their Mulligans? That would be like telling a three year old that they have had enough i-pad time. Fagan had got almost the entire senior team addicted to the idea that they are undroppable. They would all have meltdowns. Can anyone seriously imagine Hipwood, Rayner or Starcevich going back to the reserves for a stint to find form? These blokes know they will NEVER be dropped and play accordingly

Hard to take any of this guff seriously when you literally vanish from this thread whenever we have a good win and/or our coaches perform well.

If you actually want a shred of credibility try sticking your neck out and posting along these lines while we're winning, up and about and playing well.

Otherwise it's just the sad and incoherent ramblings of a grumpy old man committed to telling the world how much better he'd be at somebody else's job than they are.

What's even worse than a fairweather supporter? A fairweather critic.

 

[3KZ is Football]

Hard to take any of this guff seriously when you literally vanish from this thread whenever we have a good win and/or our coaches perform well.

If you actually want a shred of credibility try sticking your neck our and posting along these lines while we're winning, up and about and playing well.

Otherwise it's just the sad and incoherent ramblings of a grumpy old man committed to telling the world how much better he'd be at somebody's job than they are.

What's even worse than a fairweather supporter? A fairweather critic.

Brickbats and bouquets … all part of the game and an HONEST observers posting. Better that than supporting by Club press release and Lions App optimism.

Small point, Member, not supporter, I draw that distinction.

Now don’t be mean to me. I might lose sleep.

 

[kylegee28]

Which ,if you think that's of any significance shows that your best chance of having a successful era and winning flags is not if you've been playing finals for a few years but if you come out of nowhere after a period of relative failure.

It's definitely an interesting exercise and that's a perspective I hadn't considered!

But besides Melbourne, all of those teams had been playing finals for a few years before a slip before shooting back up into contention. Richmond bowed out in elimination finals three years in a row. The cats finished in the top four for years and lost a granny before hitting the jackpot.

The one thing that has me really surprised about the whole coaching discussion is this idea that we've completely stagnated when we've improved each year with the exception of 2021, which was the first of our "successful" years where we faced a bit of adversity with injuries and a challenging draw.

I honestly don't understand why people are grinding the axe after round 6 when we're coming off of our best season in 20 years, we've been forced to replace our forwardline coach, changed our backline coach and we're not playing atrocious footy. We're just not quite putting it all together.

 

[p4p1]

My big question is around Rayner and what his role is expected to be. I’m not sure that there is anyway around Rayner career so far being anything other than a coaching error.
Is it that he can’t play the role we want him to play because of his gas tank? Then we need to find a role where his gas tank is fine.
Have better options in those positions/roles? Then play him in the reserves until he has overtaken the guys in front of him.
Would his output be better than Gardiners as that hybrid 3rd tall role? If yes, then it’s a coaching error much like persisting with Gunston last year.
I’m just not sure why he can’t produce results consistently. He certainly has talent and I know that isn’t always enough.
Is 3kz right in saying he is too comfortable so only puts in when he feels like it? If so, another huge coaching error.
Was the weekends game on Cam, was he just not up for it? or was it on the coaches not putting him at the coal face when the conditions should have demanded that he uses his strength to push the Geelong mids around and get the ball forward. If so, again on the coaches.

 

[On the quiet]

Brickbats and bouquets … all part of the game and an HONEST observers posting. Better that than supporting by Club press release and Lions App optimism.

Small point, Member, not supporter, I draw that distinction.

Now don’t be mean to me. I might lose sleep.

The distain you have for some of our players and Fages indicates to me that you are not a true supporter. 'Grasshopper17' is spot on.