Makes complete sense.
Coach Fages and the coaching group
- Thread starter Squizz89
- Start date
- Tagged users None
Makes complete sense.
Leigh Matthews is 2 years younger than Wayne Bennett who is odds on to sign a 3 year contract with the Rabbitohs.
Section 5
Norm Smith Medallist
- Nov 26, 2018
- 7,495
- 11,697
- AFL Club
- Brisbane Lions
We are having a crap year in regard to injuries which has not helped our win/loss record in 2024.
However, i think the Las Vegas issue and the ongoing Hawks saga are not helping the team and the coach.
Multiple negative issues do tend to add up in footy clubs. Some get through them fine others not so much.
Fagan is only human and having this ongoing issue can't be good for his mental health.
Looks like it could go to the Federal Court in 2025 and possibly beyond. This all started in 2022.
Add the normal stress associated with a head coach and life must be getting difficult for Fagan.
I am coming around to the fact that a change of coach under the circumstances may be a good thing.
It could backfire but maybe worth the risk.
The club would not like to be seen abandoning Fagan so maybe they could keep him on in some capacity.
The AFL may need an ambassador for the Tasmania team, and he would be a good choice as well as initial coach.
His Lions contract is to the end of 2027.
However, we only need to pay 6 months' salary if we end the contract if he feels another role is not what he wants.
If the Hawks players go ahead to the Federal Court as threatened than some hefty legal fees will have to be paid.
Because of these possible legal fees i don't see Fagan resigning as Lions head coach.
Most likely the club will still back Fagan and he stays on for 2025.
If we don't look like easily making the 8 by round 12 next year i think his time as head coach could come to an end.
Below article from yesterday
www.abc.net.au
However, i think the Las Vegas issue and the ongoing Hawks saga are not helping the team and the coach.
Multiple negative issues do tend to add up in footy clubs. Some get through them fine others not so much.
Fagan is only human and having this ongoing issue can't be good for his mental health.
Looks like it could go to the Federal Court in 2025 and possibly beyond. This all started in 2022.
Add the normal stress associated with a head coach and life must be getting difficult for Fagan.
I am coming around to the fact that a change of coach under the circumstances may be a good thing.
It could backfire but maybe worth the risk.
The club would not like to be seen abandoning Fagan so maybe they could keep him on in some capacity.
The AFL may need an ambassador for the Tasmania team, and he would be a good choice as well as initial coach.
His Lions contract is to the end of 2027.
However, we only need to pay 6 months' salary if we end the contract if he feels another role is not what he wants.
If the Hawks players go ahead to the Federal Court as threatened than some hefty legal fees will have to be paid.
Because of these possible legal fees i don't see Fagan resigning as Lions head coach.
Most likely the club will still back Fagan and he stays on for 2025.
If we don't look like easily making the 8 by round 12 next year i think his time as head coach could come to an end.
Below article from yesterday
Mediation talks break down in Hawthorn historical mistreatment case at Australian Human Rights Commission
The manager for Alastair Clarkson and Chris Fagan confirms the Australian Human Rights Commission has ended the claim in the wake of the parties failing to find a resolution.
www.abc.net.au
Buckley reacted strongly on TV last night to the assumption that Chris Scott could come in and automatically be a step above Fagan.
www.foxsports.com.au
‘That agitates me’: Experts clash on ‘wrong assumption’ over Lions, Cats coaches
‘It’s wrong’: Debate erupts over ‘ruthless’ Lions axe as legend ‘agitated’ by Scott claim
www.foxsports.com.au
HereIGoAgain
Team Captain
- Nov 30, 2022
- 523
- 1,147
- AFL Club
- Brisbane Lions
Rather than blathering on about alternative historical timelines perhaps Buckley could look closer to home for some hard evidence on the effectiveness of coaching changes in certain circumstances.
- Apr 24, 2020
- 2,896
- 4,609
- AFL Club
- Brisbane Lions
I don't think the players gave Gunners a heap of respect going into the game either. He is a very smart footballer but our defence definitely was over confident in being able to cover him and play off him/give him distance. I don't know if the players take what Fages said about covering Gunners with a grain of salt because I definitely got the feeling that although Fages raved about him the players weren't on board last year.
- Apr 24, 2020
- 2,896
- 4,609
- AFL Club
- Brisbane Lions
It took quite a while for the dropping of Lyons to happen when it was clear to everyone for months that Lyons wasn't up to it anymore.
- Apr 24, 2020
- 2,896
- 4,609
- AFL Club
- Brisbane Lions
There is a few things that we get wrong. Unfortunately, it appears that they are some obvious things, or at least on the surface appear to be obvious. The truth is that Fages and co could be getting a lot more out of this group than should be expected.
A few things I think could be beneficial are:
1. We play Dunks to defensive too often. I think he is a talented player, yes he always takes the oppositions best mid and does an excellent job on them but I also think if we are going a full defensive mid then we may as well play Robertson or someone similar in that role who can be just as negative and with some time be as effective in shutting someone down. We could use Dunks in 'break in case of emergency' rather than the first option every time.
2. Clugg inside. I think he is great but I think he is better on the outside. He doesn't have the burst of speed or strength to bust his way out of a pack. He is a smart footballer with most of the tricks in the book to make up for that but it often runs him into trouble. He went from clear AA candidate on a wing to a solid but not outstanding (in the context of the competition) midfielder. It appears that our club doesn't want or value specialist wingers anymore but I do think it would be beneficial for us.
3. Use Rayner inside or not at all. Even if we go into the game knowing we will have to sub him during the 3rd quarter. We can't continue to carry him when he is having an off night, which unfortunately happens more often than not. It just feels to me like we don't use him to his strengths often enough. We don't know from the outside if that is because there is not faith in him to run defensively, not go for the hanger etc. But if that's the case then he should have been dropped to the 2's some time ago. Hell drop him to the 2's put him on a wing and make him run his guts out for 6 weeks and see if that helps his fitness if that is the issue.
4. We don't use the tactical sub, tactically. Obviously you need a contingency in case the worst happens and you end up with an injury, but expect the best case scenario. If you are choosing your 23rd player. Have your 22nd player run ragged for 2 and a bit quarters and then swap them over. Workrate can and often does (in most sports) more than make up for talent and skill.
5. Run more guys through the midfield/centre bounces more consistently while planning the best mix of guys. IE and extreme example would be having Bailey, Rayner and Neale in the middle at the same time. There would be no defence and if the tap didn't go our way it would be walked to the other end for a goal. Having said that, it isn't hard to defend or chase an oppo player, if you ran with Bailey, Rayner and Neale, make it clear to Bailey and Rayner that if they aren't accountable defensively or at least don't bust their gut then, its just staying forward or down to the 2s for them. We have seen on multiple threads how other teams spread the load through the midfield, this could also be a reason for the red time goals against us that were far too common last year. We used to run Browny through the midfield occasionally, they don't need to spend long there just the first couple of stoppages but it changes the look of the 'clearance team' and makes the oppo have to adjust.
A few things I think could be beneficial are:
1. We play Dunks to defensive too often. I think he is a talented player, yes he always takes the oppositions best mid and does an excellent job on them but I also think if we are going a full defensive mid then we may as well play Robertson or someone similar in that role who can be just as negative and with some time be as effective in shutting someone down. We could use Dunks in 'break in case of emergency' rather than the first option every time.
2. Clugg inside. I think he is great but I think he is better on the outside. He doesn't have the burst of speed or strength to bust his way out of a pack. He is a smart footballer with most of the tricks in the book to make up for that but it often runs him into trouble. He went from clear AA candidate on a wing to a solid but not outstanding (in the context of the competition) midfielder. It appears that our club doesn't want or value specialist wingers anymore but I do think it would be beneficial for us.
3. Use Rayner inside or not at all. Even if we go into the game knowing we will have to sub him during the 3rd quarter. We can't continue to carry him when he is having an off night, which unfortunately happens more often than not. It just feels to me like we don't use him to his strengths often enough. We don't know from the outside if that is because there is not faith in him to run defensively, not go for the hanger etc. But if that's the case then he should have been dropped to the 2's some time ago. Hell drop him to the 2's put him on a wing and make him run his guts out for 6 weeks and see if that helps his fitness if that is the issue.
4. We don't use the tactical sub, tactically. Obviously you need a contingency in case the worst happens and you end up with an injury, but expect the best case scenario. If you are choosing your 23rd player. Have your 22nd player run ragged for 2 and a bit quarters and then swap them over. Workrate can and often does (in most sports) more than make up for talent and skill.
5. Run more guys through the midfield/centre bounces more consistently while planning the best mix of guys. IE and extreme example would be having Bailey, Rayner and Neale in the middle at the same time. There would be no defence and if the tap didn't go our way it would be walked to the other end for a goal. Having said that, it isn't hard to defend or chase an oppo player, if you ran with Bailey, Rayner and Neale, make it clear to Bailey and Rayner that if they aren't accountable defensively or at least don't bust their gut then, its just staying forward or down to the 2s for them. We have seen on multiple threads how other teams spread the load through the midfield, this could also be a reason for the red time goals against us that were far too common last year. We used to run Browny through the midfield occasionally, they don't need to spend long there just the first couple of stoppages but it changes the look of the 'clearance team' and makes the oppo have to adjust.
This lame “is it the coaches fault X did Y because of Z” trope that’s infiltrated this board is getting tiresome and it’s lazy.
You could make a case that any coach that is under the pressure now or even recently sacked could have pulled out that smooth brain response. “It’s not my fault the players can’t football”.
Wow. They could have saved their career with one simple comment.
You could make a case that any coach that is under the pressure now or even recently sacked could have pulled out that smooth brain response. “It’s not my fault the players can’t football”.
Wow. They could have saved their career with one simple comment.
HereIGoAgain
Team Captain
- Nov 30, 2022
- 523
- 1,147
- AFL Club
- Brisbane Lions
Keep up the gatekeeping dude. You're doing a sterling job.This lame “is it the coaches fault X did Y because of Z” trope that’s infiltrated this board is getting tiresome and it’s lazy.
You could make a case that any coach that is under the pressure now or even recently sacked could have pulled out that smooth brain response. “It’s not my fault the players can’t football”.
Wow. They could have saved their career with one simple comment.
Toffee Lion
BigFooty Rising Star
The players need to take more responsiblity. We have a lengthy injury list. Our senior players are playing poorly. Our coach is getting quite old, do we need a succession plan? A freshen up at the coaching level isn't a bad thing. Fagan deserves time to fix things.
All of these facts are true in my eyes. The worst thing the club could do though is be hasty and support a toxic mindset of dumping a coach because of a hiccup. Fagan has earned the right to to right the ship (Pun intended). In saying that, I've said before in this thread that I think the best thing the club can do is begin the process of a succession plan being implemented.
This is not a case of "SACK HINKLEYY!11!!" after a decade of failures where the majority of the fanbase feels disdain for their coach. We're in uncharted waters for the first time in Fages' tenure. The first real bump in the road, it's quite a big bump though. It's testing our love & faith for a man who helped take us out of the mire so I'm not surprised to see two sides of the conversation clashing in here. Let's not forget his accomplishments but we cannot hold onto the past to move forward.
Just as we analyse the players and ask the question, so we should to the coach and the rest of the club. Over to you Fages, fix this mess.
All of these facts are true in my eyes. The worst thing the club could do though is be hasty and support a toxic mindset of dumping a coach because of a hiccup. Fagan has earned the right to to right the ship (Pun intended). In saying that, I've said before in this thread that I think the best thing the club can do is begin the process of a succession plan being implemented.
This is not a case of "SACK HINKLEYY!11!!" after a decade of failures where the majority of the fanbase feels disdain for their coach. We're in uncharted waters for the first time in Fages' tenure. The first real bump in the road, it's quite a big bump though. It's testing our love & faith for a man who helped take us out of the mire so I'm not surprised to see two sides of the conversation clashing in here. Let's not forget his accomplishments but we cannot hold onto the past to move forward.
Just as we analyse the players and ask the question, so we should to the coach and the rest of the club. Over to you Fages, fix this mess.
Last edited:
I'm in the camp that Fages has had a lot on his plate and he obviously needs help imo. Given his age it's only sensible that there's a succession plan of some description and a process to revitalise the coaching group. From the outside we seem to have made a few blues this year , but that's just an observational opinion and could be misguided.
It's a bit of a paradox that I also believe that he's earnt the right to see out his contract and call the shots. I hope we don't go beyond that.
We might have run our race under the current modus operandi but still have the club/coaching structure and list to move forward . We're a bit under siege at the moment so when the dust settles over the next few weeks maybe the best course of action will become evident to all involved.
I know we've suffered through injuries but I was just looking at the Dogs likely outs against us , they're not travelling much better but of course the majority aren't ACL's.
No one's giving up on 2024 , there's always some hope we can turn it around but I think a few changes will still be warranted in the off season
Last edited:
- Apr 24, 2020
- 2,896
- 4,609
- AFL Club
- Brisbane Lions
I have. I think we are missing too many good players to win a premiership. I don't think there is much point in making finals to play an extra away game at the end of the season.
BuntonRules
long term substance abuser
Veteran
Brisbane Lions - Cam Rayner Player Sponsor 2019
Brisbane Lions - Hugh McCluggage Player Sponsor 2018
Brisbane Lions - Jarrod Berry Player Sponsor 2017
Brisbane Lions - Ben Keays Player Sponsor 2016
Brisbane Lions - Jayden McGrath Player Sponsor 2015
Brisbane Lions - Pearce Hanley Player Sponsor 2014
Brisbane Lions - 2013 Elliot Yeo Player Sponsor
- Dec 30, 2008
- 7,123
- 9,823
- AFL Club
- Brisbane Lions
- Other Teams
- Whitsunday SeaEagles
Considering that our first round pick is probably gone for Levi - and our injury list - IMO there is a lot of value in the pride that a grand finalist fought back to at least be in the hunt.
That said - GET A TACKLING COACH
- Jul 22, 2007
- 2,043
- 5,193
- AFL Club
- Brisbane Lions
Another loss or 2 and the rest of the season sets it's own course... but for now we need to be incredibly delicate in how we go forward.
Despite how shit we are at present, no player trains to lose. No player trades clubs to be worse off. The idea we just write this year off and work on next year shouldn't fly with either coaches or players. If it does it indicates bigger problems than we know about.
The desire to win should be ingrained. If it's not now is the time to reflect and ask why. Why do we perform like we did yesterday? And so regularly? Even during our peak?
What worries me was the video of Fages rallying donations for giving day. On occasions he used the word relaxing when referring to the Richmond game.
Now I understand the context. I'm not an idiot. But language is incredibly powerful.
That word indicates that we can take it easy. We can settle back. In reality it's actually extremely arrogant. It's a very odd word for him to use or for me at least.
If that's the message around the club - because he also used it in his press conference straight after the Richmond game so it's not isolated - then perhaps we have a tendency to drink our own bath water from the top down.
Being an inclusive, uplifting type of coach is an incredibly fine line. You walk the tightrope of justified praise and ego stroking every time you open your mouth.
I don't think there is a place for that language at any point in this season. It baffles me that it wasn't about working for the result, or our perseverance paid off or a million other lines.
Maybe Fages needs to reassess his message - both directly and indirectly - and the way it is received by the players a little more.
Despite how shit we are at present, no player trains to lose. No player trades clubs to be worse off. The idea we just write this year off and work on next year shouldn't fly with either coaches or players. If it does it indicates bigger problems than we know about.
The desire to win should be ingrained. If it's not now is the time to reflect and ask why. Why do we perform like we did yesterday? And so regularly? Even during our peak?
What worries me was the video of Fages rallying donations for giving day. On occasions he used the word relaxing when referring to the Richmond game.
Now I understand the context. I'm not an idiot. But language is incredibly powerful.
That word indicates that we can take it easy. We can settle back. In reality it's actually extremely arrogant. It's a very odd word for him to use or for me at least.
If that's the message around the club - because he also used it in his press conference straight after the Richmond game so it's not isolated - then perhaps we have a tendency to drink our own bath water from the top down.
Being an inclusive, uplifting type of coach is an incredibly fine line. You walk the tightrope of justified praise and ego stroking every time you open your mouth.
I don't think there is a place for that language at any point in this season. It baffles me that it wasn't about working for the result, or our perseverance paid off or a million other lines.
Maybe Fages needs to reassess his message - both directly and indirectly - and the way it is received by the players a little more.
Last edited:
- Apr 24, 2020
- 2,896
- 4,609
- AFL Club
- Brisbane Lions
I’m not advocating for tanking or not trying to win every game. I just don’t think we will make finals. I don’t think there is any point in doing so but we should try to.
We'll be trying. Fagan has a lot of pride and so do the players.
But sometimes when you're swimming against the tide and you've been disappointed in yourself it just gets hard to get up the energy you might have had when the prize was right in front of you. Instead of now when you're half thinking your efforts are probably in vain.
We need a lot of momentum to put a few wins together and it's hard to see where that's going to come from. If we beat the Dogs at Marvel that would be a big win.
I don’t buy injuries as an excuse whatsoever; Collingwood’s injuries and start to the season was no different to our own and yet they’re equal fourth only seperated by percentage. Not sure what our excuse is but motivation, respect for one another as in teammates or what Lachie said after round one that they’re shitting on each other, desire and effort would be where I’d start.
Injuries are not an excuse, I agree
Not sure of his name, but one of the reporters on the Foxtel show "The Midweek Tackle" had quite a bit to say about the talk from, particularly David King, of getting rid of Fagan for Chris Scott.
He was critical of all talk of it and then put up on the screen statistics for both over the time Fagan has been our coach...wins, losses etc
They were identical.
He finished by saying a bit of deeper research would've found those statistics..
I think it's time to back Chris Fagan, get off his back and stop adding to the pressure he's already under. He deserves that from us at the very least.
We are not going to get a better all round coach. Imo he will sort things out, players will come back from injury and we're in the game again....just work on the goal kicking, again imo, that's the main problem. Had the majority of the points kicked been goals, this discussion probably wouldn't be happening.
Sometimes certain expectations can be way too high when things get difficult.
He was critical of all talk of it and then put up on the screen statistics for both over the time Fagan has been our coach...wins, losses etc
They were identical.
He finished by saying a bit of deeper research would've found those statistics..
I think it's time to back Chris Fagan, get off his back and stop adding to the pressure he's already under. He deserves that from us at the very least.
We are not going to get a better all round coach. Imo he will sort things out, players will come back from injury and we're in the game again....just work on the goal kicking, again imo, that's the main problem. Had the majority of the points kicked been goals, this discussion probably wouldn't be happening.
Sometimes certain expectations can be way too high when things get difficult.
Well said MacMum!
- Sep 4, 2018
- 973
- 1,442
- AFL Club
- Brisbane Lions
- Other Teams
- AFL
Going to be hard to stuff up this trade/draft period. Bar any surprises (trade requests, early retirements, etc.), only need to bring Ashcroft and Marshall in plus maybe a tall forward.
Don't have any high hopes for anyone coming in the MSD. If the RT finds a keeper, it would be more of a fluke than anything else.
Similar threads
