Analysis Finding the root of our problems

[Livonski]

Was a genuine question...I think the effort etc is there its the lack of skill/poise which is killing us. But if it's not there is it the players? Probably, but its natural but I think they've been trying every week.

I agree wholeheartdly with the skill/poise comment. But I also reckon there's an element of hardness missing when players don't take responsibility to kick goals when they have the chance. It should be hard nosed and clinical. Cotchin weak push to the right is just that. Bernie Vince was 20m further out on the same angle and gave the goal umpire whiplash.

 

[partycorolla]

Too many apologists for the club. Too many soft supporters putting up with average results.

Dimma's a good bloke, blah blah blah. Who gives a heck. He cannot coach to a level than can take a side to a premiership
Anyone that think he can is a farking idiot! Simples

There are plenty on here than think he can - complete morons.

Let's here it for the twits about to defend him. Idiots. Wake up!

I've actually never heard anyone on here say that DH is a good bloke, only people talking about other 'people' saying he is a good bloke.... DH could coach Hawks to a flag as could a few blokes. Chris Scott was handed a premiership side.

No-one could coach this current list to a flag in 2015..... no-one. Time to cut some of the blokes who have brought us from crap to competitive and get some more young talent in - Knights, Newman, Arnot, Petterd, Grigg (although would be useful in a decent team, is a liability in a poor team), Hampson, Foley, probably Lambert, Dea, Gordon and/or Lloyd all need to be replaced within 18 months....

It's so simple..... good players make coaches look good, poor or average players make coaches look poor, especially when those average players don't give a 100%....

 

[1980]

They may have but it doesn't mean that we werent missing some either(see astbury), and it wasn't as if they didn't try to win too. As I said before, they still had some pretty good replacements that came in too. These are the game they still win anyway.

True but we cant measue oursleves against this performance because clearly the Swans were mentally preparing for the finals. We cant hold up this game and say look how well we did against the Swans.

 

[theflea]

True but we cant measue oursleves against this performance because clearly the Swans were mentally preparing for the finals. We cant hold up this game and say look how well we did against the Swans.

Why not? They have got around 30 really good AFL players and we have about 25ish, so we can compare imo. We got lambasted for our performance last week and rightly so, however we never got 1 point about our injury list. Why do we not get any slack for the swans game, yet also get none for our injury rate as if we were playing our full squad. Geez AFL 360 for the last 2 days have been giving the suns an out for their injury list but we got zip. Why? I know why, because it doesn't follow a headline.

 

[TJTIGER]

Psych tests. Do we recruit with a cookie cutter profile? Just a wild thought based on nothing.

Can you elaborate ? I'm interested to know more...

 

[TJTIGER]

Morris has the answers

http://m.richmondfc.com.au/news/2015-04-27/morris-expresses-disappointment

Interesting what Ross Smith said during the interview , They were just harder than us on the inside. That's saying we were just not focused, desperate, determined enough ( we didn't come to play)...??? It appears to me that the team does not share the supporters Passion for this club ? Is this part of professional sport ? Making your living from it ? You want to be in it to make your crust as long as possible ?

Commitment, determination, passion all mean laying it on the line, are we prepared to do that ? Broken shins, punctured lungs, concussions (potential brain injuries). All for our entertainment ? I'm just putting it out there. I think there is something not quite right.... From the start I questioned if Cotch was the right man to take Captaincy(too young) & Lids, well by his own admission had not thought about it until more recently (in an interview). I'm not convinced he would have been the right man for the job either.

If you care about your team you look to protect them(eachother). I was watching a replay of an Eagles/Ess game with Cuz , Judd & kerr on Fox. These guys were never far from the ball. Time & again when Judd went in Cuz would block for him & others. I'm really doubting that the boys have that in their game ?? When we commit to the hard stuff tackling & blocking our adrenalin & commitment to each other on field seems to rise to the next level ? I am not aware of our stats for these areas but our Tigers look a bit toothless at the moment. Are we in survival mode because of our injuries ? Me I think if that is the case F*** it continue to play hard & tough if the Tigers cannot then field a team. Then the AFL can bloody well ware it and fix it becoz that means there is an inherent problem in the system. We are talking a full contact sport, there is & will always be risk. I'm not questioning Cotch's or Lids commitment as individual players with brilliance . I'm questioning their ability to harness the group & have them follow.

Do our players Love their leaders ? Because be damed sure if I loved my team, my Brothers, my jumper, my Club, my Family I would be protecting the shit out of them. I thought these things would be not negotiable from a hard, tough uncompromising back pocket player like Dimma, but I'm becoming a bit unsure as it doesn't seem to be reflected in the team. Players like Boak, Hodgie, J. selwood. May not be the most talented in their teams but gee they lead from the front. Their commitment to their team mates i could not justifiably question. I'm not so sure about our leaders. We talk about protecting Cotch blocking etc for him. Maybe I need to watch more closely, but I honestly cannot say I've seen Cotch block for other players. If you are going to lead your team (my thinking). Never expect anything of them that you would not be doing to the enth degree yourself. This is in my mind the essence of leadership.... I don't see Cotch's passion or Lid's passion they are controlled, measured restrained.....I think attitude reflects leadership & at the moment we have a very controlled group of players.

Where is the passion, the will to do the hard stuff ? As Ross Smith said where is the hardness, the commitment ? That is what wins games at the professional level. Whatever your opposition do, you have to go longer, further, they rise you rise higher, they go hard, you go harder......That to me is commitment, pride, Love...the will to be the best you can... Sorry if I repeated myself & ranted too much. I'll get off my soap box now...

 

[Tiger71]

Interesting what Ross Smith said during the interview , They were just harder than us on the inside. That's saying we were just not focused, desperate, determined enough ( we didn't come to play)...??? It appears to me that the team does not share the supporters Passion for this club ? Is this part of professional sport ? Making your living from it ? You want to be in it to make your crust as long as possible ? Commitment, determination, passion all mean laying it on the line, are we prepared to do that ? Broken shins, punctured lungs, concussions (potential brain injuries). All for our entertainment ? I'm just putting it out there. I think there is something not quite right.... From the start I questioned if Cotch was the right man to take Captaincy(too young) & Lids, well by his own admission had not thought about it until more recently (in an interview). I'm not convinced he would have been the right man for the job either. If you care about your team you look to protect them(eachother). I was watching a replay of an Eagles/Ess game with Cuz , Judd & kerr on Fox. These guys were never far from the ball. Time & again when Judd went in Cuz would block for him & others. I'm really doubting that the boys have that in their game ?? When we commit to the hard stuff tackling & blocking our adrenalin & commitment to each other on field seems to rise to the next level ? I am not aware of our stats for these areas but our Tigers look a bit toothless at the moment. Are we in survival mode because of our injuries ? Me I think if that is the case F*** it continue to play hard & tough if the Tigers cannot then field a team. Then the AFL can bloody well ware it and fix it becoz that means there is an inherent problem in the system. We are talking a full contact sport, there is & will always be risk. I'm not questioning Cotch's or Lids commitment as individual players with brilliance . I'm questioning their ability to harness the group & have them follow. Do our players Love their leaders ? Because be damed sure if I loved my team, my Brothers, my jumper, my Club, my Family I would be protecting the shit out of them. I thought these things would be not negotiable from a hard, tough uncompromising back pocket player like Dimma, but I'm becoming a bit unsure as it doesn't seem to be reflected in the team. Players like Boak, Hodgie, J. selwood. May not be the most talented in their teams but gee they lead from the front. Their commitment to their team mates i could not justifiably question. I'm not so sure about our leaders. We talk about protecting Cotch blocking etc for him. Maybe I need to watch more closely, but I honestly cannot say I've seen Cotch block for other players. If you are going to lead your team (my thinking). Never expect anything of them that you would not be doing to the enth degree yourself. This is in my mind the essence of leadership.... I don't see Cotch's passion or Lid's passion they are controlled, measured restrained.....I think attitude reflects leadership & at the moment we have a very controlled group of players. Where is the passion, the will to do the hard stuff ? As Ross Smith said where is the hardness, the commitment ? That is what wins games at the professional level. Whatever your opposition do, you have go longer, further, they rise you rise higher, they go hard, you go harder......That to me is commitment, pride, Love...the will to be the best you can... Sorry if I repeated myself & ranted too much. I'll get off my soap box now...

Brother, please use paragraphs on this, i want to read it but cant as my head hurts

 

[TJTIGER]

Brother, please use paragraphs on this, i want to read it but cant as my head hurts

Ok Sorry about your head, hope that's better

 

[RunningBounce]

I honestly cannot say I've seen Cotch block for other players.

This is a very good point. I can't remember seeing it either, and will be looking for it from now on.

Only a very small number of our better players do block / shepherd. Most of our better players peel off the contest instead. It's an element we have been gradually losing, with Tuck, Jackson and King leaving without similar players replacing them. We rely on less skilled players to provide this element, and it makes them indispensable to the team.

There's plenty of warranted criticism of Morris just now, but if (or when) he is dropped, our attack on the footy, blocking, chasing and spoiling will drop noticeably. Same could be said for Batchelor (who has been serviceable so far this season, IMO). His work off the ball, and his physicality are great. Dare I say we miss Petterd? Maybe. We definitely miss Foley, IMO.

Perhaps this is the root of our problems. Our "stars" don't do the grunt work off the ball. Our "role players" are ineffective with the ball. We have very few rounded players.

 

[TJTIGER]

This is a very good point. I can't remember seeing it either, and will be looking for it from now on.

Only a very small number of our better players do block / shepherd. Most of our better players peel off the contest instead. It's an element we have been gradually losing, with Tuck, Jackson and King leaving without similar players replacing them. We rely on less skilled players to provide this element, and it makes them indispensable to the team.


Perhaps this is the root of our problems. Our "stars" don't do the grunt work off the ball. Our "role players" are ineffective with the ball. We have very few rounded players.

If true this sends a very bad message to the group. It could also develop a degree of division. On the surface of it not huge but creates double standards & by extension a less than 100% commitment from the group.Which just is not going to cut it at AFL

 

[TigerImposter]

Interesting what Ross Smith said during the interview , They were just harder than us on the inside. That's saying we were just not focused, desperate, determined enough ( we didn't come to play)...??? It appears to me that the team does not share the supporters Passion for this club ? Is this part of professional sport ? Making your living from it ? You want to be in it to make your crust as long as possible ?

Commitment, determination, passion all mean laying it on the line, are we prepared to do that ? Broken shins, punctured lungs, concussions (potential brain injuries). All for our entertainment ? I'm just putting it out there. I think there is something not quite right.... From the start I questioned if Cotch was the right man to take Captaincy(too young) & Lids, well by his own admission had not thought about it until more recently (in an interview). I'm not convinced he would have been the right man for the job either.

If you care about your team you look to protect them(eachother). I was watching a replay of an Eagles/Ess game with Cuz , Judd & kerr on Fox. These guys were never far from the ball. Time & again when Judd went in Cuz would block for him & others. I'm really doubting that the boys have that in their game ?? When we commit to the hard stuff tackling & blocking our adrenalin & commitment to each other on field seems to rise to the next level ? I am not aware of our stats for these areas but our Tigers look a bit toothless at the moment. Are we in survival mode because of our injuries ? Me I think if that is the case F*** it continue to play hard & tough if the Tigers cannot then field a team. Then the AFL can bloody well ware it and fix it becoz that means there is an inherent problem in the system. We are talking a full contact sport, there is & will always be risk. I'm not questioning Cotch's or Lids commitment as individual players with brilliance . I'm questioning their ability to harness the group & have them follow.

Do our players Love their leaders ? Because be damed sure if I loved my team, my Brothers, my jumper, my Club, my Family I would be protecting the shit out of them. I thought these things would be not negotiable from a hard, tough uncompromising back pocket player like Dimma, but I'm becoming a bit unsure as it doesn't seem to be reflected in the team. Players like Boak, Hodgie, J. selwood. May not be the most talented in their teams but gee they lead from the front. Their commitment to their team mates i could not justifiably question. I'm not so sure about our leaders. We talk about protecting Cotch blocking etc for him. Maybe I need to watch more closely, but I honestly cannot say I've seen Cotch block for other players. If you are going to lead your team (my thinking). Never expect anything of them that you would not be doing to the enth degree yourself. This is in my mind the essence of leadership.... I don't see Cotch's passion or Lid's passion they are controlled, measured restrained.....I think attitude reflects leadership & at the moment we have a very controlled group of players.

Where is the passion, the will to do the hard stuff ? As Ross Smith said where is the hardness, the commitment ? That is what wins games at the professional level. Whatever your opposition do, you have to go longer, further, they rise you rise higher, they go hard, you go harder......That to me is commitment, pride, Love...the will to be the best you can... Sorry if I repeated myself & ranted too much. I'll get off my soap box now...

You shouldn't be saying all of this into our 6th year ,but we are all echoing your sentiments .
Hardwick is struggling to develop leaders.Cotch was a better leader around Cousins.he used to be leading the team near the fence and pumping up the boys.
Now they just mope out looking clueless or lost.unfortunately even on field leadership has become non existent.
lets see what happens this week and thereafter

 

[TJTIGER]

You shouldn't be saying all of this into our 6th year ,but we are all echoing your sentiments .
Hardwick is struggling to develop leaders.Cotch was a better leader around Cousins.he used to be leading the team near the fence and pumping up the boys.
Now they just mope out looking clueless or lost.unfortunately even on field leadership has become non existent.
lets see what happens this week and thereafter

yep Cousins was seen as the spiritual leader at the W.C. Judd exceptional, professional. Cuz a footballers footballer knows how to inspire & get a group up. I think many have confused off field public image and onfield performance....I cannot think of anyone who can get the group up like Cuz. I wonder if Morris could given how he goes about it onfield 100% commitment. Not perfect, but you could never fault his commitment....???

 

[TigerImposter]

yep Cousins was seen as the spiritual leader at the W.C. Judd exceptional, professional. Cuz a footballers footballer knows how to inspire & get a group up. I think many have confused off field public image and onfield performance....I cannot think of anyone who can get the group up like Cuz. I wonder if Morris could given how he goes about it onfield 100% commitment. Not perfect, but you could never fault his commitment....???

agree with all of this,but Morris commitment to me is seen as over zealous and wreckless due to poor skills and footy nous.
only if some of our guns had maybe his fearless heart,but nothing else

 

[Tiger Claw]

Can you elaborate ? I'm interested to know more...

Can't elaborate really. Just a random thought that crossed my mind as I was considering what seems to hold us back as one simultaneously and why we struggle to overcome that.

I don't think it's talent/skill because I think we've ample of both to make a difference in a game. Besides even the work horses of a side can lift and play a part.

Maybe it's shared experience in that we have a large block around the same age yet from what I've heard that's meant to be a good thing over time until the list ages too much.

Maybe it's the game plan but that doesn't explain fully how basic skills go out the window one week and come back in another. I know I could find a number of instances of how it could be game plan/opposition pressure but that doesn't go far enough. Just look at set shots on goal for example and the likes of Jack, who we know is more than capable, just missing when he'd normally nail them.

Lack of leadership but that sort of plays into my random thought. You'd think within a group of 22 there'd have to be a handful that can lift and inspire through actions but I'm almost fearful to say if we had them the rest may not have it in them to follow.

So back to my random thought. Do we have a psych profile that we prefer, giving us players with certain mental strengths that has a down side in others that affects our ability on the field?

Part of me thinks we are too inbred and we should look to mixing in a bit of blood from other clans.

Anyway I didn't want to elaborate because as I said originally - I've got nothing really and after all this waffle it still seems just some sort of gut feeling.

 

[theflea]

This is a very good point. I can't remember seeing it either, and will be looking for it from now on.

Only a very small number of our better players do block / shepherd. Most of our better players peel off the contest instead. It's an element we have been gradually losing, with Tuck, Jackson and King leaving without similar players replacing them. We rely on less skilled players to provide this element, and it makes them indispensable to the team.

There's plenty of warranted criticism of Morris just now, but if (or when) he is dropped, our attack on the footy, blocking, chasing and spoiling will drop noticeably. Same could be said for Batchelor (who has been serviceable so far this season, IMO). His work off the ball, and his physicality are great. Dare I say we miss Petterd? Maybe. We definitely miss Foley, IMO.

Perhaps this is the root of our problems. Our "stars" don't do the grunt work off the ball. Our "role players" are ineffective with the ball. We have very few rounded players.

This very point was raised on SEN the other day. The old style of give off then block/shepherd is basically getting outdated by coaches these days preferring a more separation(or divide and conquer) for the next possession that make a run a carry game.

 

[billywhizz]

Batchelor is the only one in the team that knows how to shepherd. That is the problem.

Every single time two of our players are side by side the one without the ball tries to receive a 30cm handpass and doesn't even contemplate blocking. Then, if the handball somehow miraculously manages to hit the intended target (that is next to him) the guy fumbles it.

Running alongside someone who is less than half a metre away is not a spread and does not allow either of the two players to be decisive.

 

[RunningBounce]

This very point was raised on SEN the other day. The old style of give off then block/shepherd is basically getting outdated by coaches these days preferring a more separation(or divide and conquer) for the next possession that make a run a carry game.

Interesting, and makes me re-think what "grunt work off the ball" actually is. I'd be guessing that grunt work is now considered staying mobile and spreading?

We don't have many players who keep that up all game when the team's not "on". It's the big red flag for me. When there's a free kick or mark in the back half, and no-one ahead of the ball is moving, I know at least the next 10 minutes are gunna be very hard to watch.

Been one of the strengths of Griffiths' game, IMO. Keeps leading and providing a target down the line.

 

[RunningBounce]

/Bump.

I was wrong, and wanted to admit it.

Only a very small number of our better players do block / shepherd. Most of our better players peel off the contest instead.

I made that comment with Cotchin specifically in mind.

Last Saturday night, he put on a cracking block for Vickery to take a mark in the third quarter, running backwards with the flight. The big fella juggled it, and slotted the set shot. But he only got that shot because the captain got between Vickery and the defender coming fast with a pole axe. Great work. Cotchin did plenty off the ball that contributed to one of the better Tiger wins.