First 22 in 2023

[Nathan Barley]

Well the original post claimed us trying to move past older players is a sign of not interested in winning. If that's true, then playing out of form players with some pre-decided sense of best team finding form together (hoping really) is a sign of not interested in winning too. We can agree to disagree on that one.

Totally disagree. Playing proven players who are out of form is far less of a risk than playing unknowns who might be capable of more but haven't shown it consistently at AFL level

Or guys like Matho who aren't capable of playing at a real high level but with form might be a short term improvement

 

[morsie]

This is a big fork in the road moment this off season.

Do we go younger and regenerate on the run?

Positives - start a process for the next 5 years, add speed, keep young guys getting games.

Negatives - won’t win a flag or make top 4, could still be a finals team.

Do we roll the dice on this line up one more time for Fagans last season of his current contract?

Positives - we might get a good year out of sone older guys, might find sone form, might get lucky a make a prelim.

Negatives - if it backfires another wasted year, where young guys don’t get a run.

I think Fagan will want to go again, no way is he going to play Lyons in the ressies, Rich and Zorko will get another year if they are keen - grounds arnt really there to retire them.

We won’t put anyone on the trade table.

What we need?

Another established mid, same issue as last year, our midfield sucks and we need mature help. Dunkley perfect but unlikely.

KPP young talent, what young keys bar Fullerton and Panye do we have?

What I would like to do?

I think I want to regenerate on the run, tough calls would need to be made but we need a shake up.

Starc, Andrews, Payne
Coleman, Adams, Bailey
Prior, Neale, Berry
Rayner daniher McCarthy
Cameron Fort, Hipwood
mcinerney, mccluggage, Ashcroft, NEW MID
Ahchee, wilmot, Lohmann, Robertson

Tough chats - dizz, rich, Zorko,

Depth matho (get he is passionate but not good enough at the level), answerth (not showing enough), the rest

Can we follow the Geelong route and top up selectively or are we too dumb to get that right?

 

[On the quiet]

B Payne Adams Coleman
HB Madden Andrews Wilmot
C Berry Robertson McCluggage
HF Rayner Hipwood Bailey
F McCarthy Daniher Cameron
R McInerney Neale Starcevich
I Lane Ah Chee Ashcroft Prior
S Lohmann

Big change up obviously with an injection of youth. Move Starcevich into the midfield alongside Dev to add some grunt, contested ball winning and a defensive edge. Rayner to spend more time on ball, Ashcroft and McCluggage to rotate through the midfield and on the wing. Berry and Prior to spend time off the wing with Ah Chee playing off half back and wing. Madden to replace Answerth, additional speed to cover players like Kosi Pickett and Shai Bolton. Wilmot can provide plenty of run out of the backline but I also rate his defensive work and believe he can play the Starcevich lockdown role.

Kalin Lane to back up in the ruck and O to spend time forward. Lohmann to play plenty of games right on the edge of the 22.

Massive change with regulars such as Zorko, Rich, Lyons, Robinson, McStay and Gardiner out plus Mathieson being overtaken by Dev/Ashcroft.

Potential for a best 22 trade in to slot in somewhere as well. I like the balance of this side a lot better than our current line up. I like the idea of playing two genuine rucks, Fort probably starts over Lane but hoping Lane pushes for senior games next season. I'd say we will drop off a little replacing experienced veterans with younger prospects such as Lane, Madden, Wilmot, Ashcroft and Lohmann, however, it won't take us long to move back up, particularly if those younger guys reach their potential, plus I can see Rayner, Payne and Bailey really hitting their straps next season and we still have the likes of Neale, Cameron, Daniher, Andrews, Adams, McInerney ect. in their prime.

Been a disappointing season(Albeit not yet over), however, seeing the above team live at the Gabba next season would excite me greatly, we still have a really promising young squad with the potential to play finals and compete for premierships for many years to come. If we were to add in a Dunkley to the above side to off set the loss of Zorko/Lyons we may not fall at all and can complete a mini reset on the run!

If Wilmot and Lohmann can emulate Starcevich and Bailey(In their own unique playing styles of course but playing similar roles) and Ashcroft can have a similar rise to McCluggage's start to his career we are well and truly on for future success!

Edit: Should mention depth including Lester, Answerth, Fort, Cockatoo, Mathieson, Fullarton, B.Coleman, Lyons, Gardiner., Carter. Some real experienced depth in that list to compliment our younger guys.

Don't mind the team, you have had the courage to move on some of the experienced players and that should happen if we don't progress too far this year. Just not sure Dev will be around. IF Gardiner signs a 'multi year' deal (have to think 3, 4 or unlikely 5 years) there is no way he is playing VFL, so unlikely him and Payne in the same team.

 

[davemc_lions]

Totally disagree. Playing proven players who are out of form is far less of a risk than playing unknowns who might be capable of more but haven't shown it consistently at AFL level

Or guys like Matho who aren't capable of playing at a real high level but with form might be a short term improvement

I feel we been playing a lot of players carry a few injuries as well. probably carrying too many
Yes Matho interesting he banging the door down in VFL over guys like Dev or T Berry etc.
Although in the VFL he was played in the middle more then Dev or T Berry.
Same as Fort if he plays VFL then guys like Fullarton, Smith and Lane get less development time as a ruck.

 

[rye]

ive been saying payne has overtaken dizzy since he entered the team this year in the defender role, he has a high ceiling as a defender and would be b22 over gardiner next year for me

if you still count robbo as a best 22 his spot is whichever of ah chee / prior you presumably dont count as best 22 next year

of the rest of our 22 we currently run, we need to look at who will be replacing rich, zorko, lyons and mathieson. the only one i feel like has had a good enough season to be best 22 next year is rich. i feel like some have been too harsh on rich this year, especially considering how having the 2 rebounders has been a great asset to have when the clamps get put on one as these types of players are increasingly becoming targets for taggers.

if we can replace zorko, lyons and mathieson with ashcroft, robertson and either A) a ready to go traded in mid (dunkley) OR B) Starcevich and mold cockatoo into the starcevich role we will be in a good position. a lot more pace and hopefully an improved team defence out of the midfield to cover our predominantly forward half players (Rayner, Bailey, Clug)

 

[davemc_lions]

Team for 2023

B Payne Adams Coleman
HB Starc Andrews Wilmot
C Berry "New Mid" McCluggage
HF Daniher Hipwood Bailey
F McCarthy Rayner Cameron
R McInerney Neale Ashcroft
I Ah Chee Lohamnn Fort Rich
Emerg: Fullarton, Prior, Cockatoo and Answerth.
Tunstill, Sharp and Fletcher I have hope see what happens same as McDowell-White if we get him.

Just think we have to play 2 rucks if McStay goes.
Rayner FF as when McStay goes only one who can take a contested mark.
We trade in a new mid who will play 22.
I think Dev ask for a trade.
Even Prior weird not signed yet?
Lyons and Rich unless they come back fitter and better form I say we play only one
I think Wilmot gone past Madden as next in line
Zorko I think lost the pace now and just angry
Cockatoo I hope another pre season and we see his talent more.

 

[On the quiet]

This is a big fork in the road moment this off season.

Do we go younger and regenerate on the run?

Positives - start a process for the next 5 years, add speed, keep young guys getting games.

Negatives - won’t win a flag or make top 4, could still be a finals team.

Do we roll the dice on this line up one more time for Fagans last season of his current contract?

Positives - we might get a good year out of sone older guys, might find sone form, might get lucky a make a prelim.

Negatives - if it backfires another wasted year, where young guys don’t get a run.

I think Fagan will want to go again, no way is he going to play Lyons in the ressies, Rich and Zorko will get another year if they are keen - grounds arnt really there to retire them.

We won’t put anyone on the trade table.

What we need?

Another established mid, same issue as last year, our midfield sucks and we need mature help. Dunkley perfect but unlikely.

KPP young talent, what young keys bar Fullerton and Panye do we have?

What I would like to do?

I think I want to regenerate on the run, tough calls would need to be made but we need a shake up.

Starc, Andrews, Payne
Coleman, Adams, Bailey
Prior, Neale, Berry
Rayner daniher McCarthy
Cameron Fort, Hipwood
mcinerney, mccluggage, Ashcroft, NEW MID
Ahchee, wilmot, Lohmann, Robertson

Tough chats - dizz, rich, Zorko,

Depth matho (get he is passionate but not good enough at the level), answerth (not showing enough), the rest

Agree with the post and the next few weeks will determine the direction for next year and the next few. A loss in the first or second week of finals and there needs to be changes, even if that means we are bottom 8 (which we are now) or even miss the 8 in 2023, we need to rejuvenate with an eye on 2024,2025.

 

[dlanod]

Can we follow the Geelong route and top up selectively or are we too dumb to get that right?

We're a bit short on draftees and stars wanting to return home for discount deals.

 

[StevoJenkins]

I'll have a crack at this:

FB: Payne, Adams, Andrews/Dizzy
HB: Kiddy, Rich, Wilmott
C: Bags, Starceivich, Berry
HF: Linc, Bailey, Daniher
FF: Oscar, Cameron, Hippy
CB: Fort, Neale, Dev/Matho/trade target

I/C: Ah Chee, Ashcroft, Mathieson/Prior, Rayner

Reasoning:
I like Payne when he plays in the back. He's got speed and can actually kick the ball, but isn't as physical as others. Hence why Adams stays in the team because he is tough and can blanket a key forward.

I've put Andrews/Dizzy here because I don't think we can realistically play both of these guys in the same backline. Andrews needs a solid preseason to be able to play in my books. Even if he needs time during the season, let him take some time off and rebuild his body. Dizzy plays in this case, but Payne takes his spot moving forward as Payne seems to make mistakes out of inexperience, whereas Dizzy just makes mistakes.

Kiddy and Rich play in the same area of the ground. Rich passes to Kiddy and Kiddy gets us through the corridor. Pretty simple plan. Wilmott gets added as a another option in the stead of Kiddy/Rich.

Bags gets put on his natural position - the wing, Starce gets put into the midfield to act as a big body mid/a penetrating kick and Berry plays on the other wing as he can run for days.

Half forward is made up of guys who can run up and get the ball. Linc gets put in there, same as Bailey, enabling Daniher to kick those 50 metre run-on goals he can seem to kick better than a set shot.

Oscar plays in full forward, as he gets the best defender and can just clunk marks because of his height. I much prefer him as a forward/ruck than a ruck/forward. Hippy plays there as well due to Daniher playing at half forward, unless he can get back some of his running in the preseason. Cameron plays there as well to get the crumbs off of Hippy and Oscar.

At the centre bounce, Fort plays as the full time ruck. He's tap work is not as good as Oscar, but he is more mobile than the big O, which is why he will play there and swap with Oscar as needed. Neale plays there because he is amazing as always.

Final spot in the starting 18 is up for debate. I do not rate Lyons and, as a result, I have taken him out of the team. Watching him both live and on the TV, I've seen his deficiencies wildly apparent. Given the recent news that we rate Dev (and he seems to like it here, just doesn't like the lack of opportunities I've been told), you play him in his preferred position of at least the first 8 or so rounds of the season and see how he goes with an extended run, rather than his lacklustre runs so far.

If we get a trade target (won't be Dunkley) and/or Dev doesn't work out, you put Matheison in there until next trade period and try again to get a person for that position, or play Ashcroft. Ashcroft could sit in this position by season's end, but I'm going off this seasons form to make this 22, so Dev or Matho - pick your poison.

Ah Chee starts on the bench, as he has become the ultimate utility player, Ashcroft starts in the side but as a rotating wing, Matheison plays as I like his grunt and with Robbo retiring at the end of this season we need someone with real grunt in the team. Prior can also be chucked in here as he showed enough for me this season and can play back, wing or forward.

Final spot is Rayner. Still not sold on him being in the starting midfield. I see him at this point being a guy you put in there on rotation in the mid/forward line to mix around the matchups. If he improves he can start in there, but once again I'm going off this season's form for this.

Med sub would be either Lester, Cockatoo (if he is not on the bench), Cox, Prior (depending on previous choices) or Madden. I don't really have a preference, but I would go Madden. Having a player of his speed would be good in the 2nd or 3rd quarter when players are spent or are avoiding sprints.

Edit:
Answorth replaces Wilmott if Wilmott is not ready yet.

 

[davemc_lions]

Oscar plays in full forward, as he gets the best defender and can just clunk marks because of his height. I much prefer him as a forward/ruck than a ruck/forward. Hippy plays there as well due to Daniher playing at half forward, unless he can get back some of his running in the preseason. Cameron plays there as well to get the crumbs off of Hippy and Oscar.

Was thinking about Oscar like that if McStay goes
Can take a pack contested mark that Hipwood or Joe cannot
Maybe your right play Fort main run and Oscar as chop out

 

[Warwick]

Best 22 Round 1:

B: Starcevich, Adams, Payne
HB: Rich, Andrews, Coleman
C: McCluggage, Robertson, Ah Chee
HF: Rayner, Hipwood, Bailey
F: Cameron, Daniher, Lohmann
Foll: McInerney, Neale, Berry
Int: Answerth, McCarthy, Ashcroft, Zorko
Sub: Prior

Rationale:

• Ashcroft, Lohmann, and Robertson come straight in.
• If we pick up a two-way running midfielder / tall inside player he would come in for either Payne or Answerth depending on how big we need to play down back.
• Zorko and Rich given the benefit of the doubt if they have a big preseason and regain top fitness - both in their final years however.
• Lyons left out but will be awkward with another 2 years on his contract.
• Fort unlucky - next on the list and expected to get plenty of game time when resting O or playing with two genuine rucks.
• Gardiner and McStay both out.
• Robinson to retire.
• Mathieson remains for depth.
• Wilmot, Tunstill, Fletcher, Berry, Cox, Sharp, H Smith, McFadyen, Fullerton, Michael, Madden, B Coleman all developing in the twos.

Best 22 End of Season:

B: Wilmot, Adams, Payne
HB: Starcevich, Andrews, Coleman
C: McCluggage, Robertson, Ashcroft
HF: Rayner, Hipwood, Bailey
F: Cameron, Daniher, Lohmann
Foll: McInerney, Neale, Berry
Int: Ah Chee, Prior, T Berry, Answerth
Sub: B Coleman

Rationale:

• Taking a punt of a couple developing and cementing their places like Starcevich, Bailey, Coleman have done in the previous 3 seasons. Wilmot's a pretty safe bet considering his progress. T Berry may not be on our list but I've gone with him - other contenders to suddenly force their way in include M Cox, C Michael, H Smith, H Sharp (probably my next bet).
• I expect Tunstill and Madden in particular to get games but may be in and out of the side.
• B Coleman almost at the same stage as his brother when we started to see dramatic improvement. This may be 12 months too early though. If he has the same time and class as Kiddy I'd be finding a place for him.
• I've left Rich, Zorko, and Lyons all out but I'm aware it's unlikely the first team just evolves while they are on the list. I think they will be the sort of guys who are either considered best 22 or not and will either be playing in the 1sts or retired.
• Fort again will be in the side if we go with a second ruck. Expect some pressure to come from Smith though considering his development.

 

[p4p1]

I think I'd go Berry, Ashcroft and Prior rotating on the wing. Ah Chee as the seventh forward or defender. Neale and McCluggage to continue their midfield time, with hopefully another midfielder to help out (or Robertson if he stays).

Something like:
B: Payne Adams Starcevich
HB: Coleman Andrews Answerth
C: Berry Neale Ashcroft
HF: Rayner Hipwood Bailey
F: McCarthy Daniher Cameron

R: McInerney McCluggage Robertson

I: Prior Ah Chee Fort Wilmot/Lohmann

Realistically, it's unlikely all of Zorko, Rich and Lyons will be out of the side, but I do think we've moved passed them based on their performance this year.

I think Ah Chee could take Starces role if we aren't able to get a defensive runner into our midfield. I am confident in Starce in that role. I'm still not convinced that we should be having Clugg inside either. It does seem to take away from some of his strengths.

 

[BuntonRules]

This playing blokes because they are on long/high value contracts is a sure recipe for failure. IMO we should go the opposite. At this stage Lyons is not a premiership mid. Gardiner is not a premiership defender - Lever he would never be. I would move both on for a pittance, if possible.

Depending on fitness and form, Dev gets the first month and Lyons has to prove, in the VFL, that he should replace him. Same for Payne and Gardiner.

 

[Fitzroyal02]

Team for 2023

B Payne Adams Coleman
HB Starc Andrews Wilmot
C Berry "New Mid" McCluggage
HF Daniher Hipwood Bailey
F McCarthy Rayner Cameron
R McInerney Neale Ashcroft
I Ah Chee Lohamnn Fort Rich
Emerg: Fullarton, Prior, Cockatoo and Answerth.
Tunstill, Sharp and Fletcher I have hope see what happens same as McDowell-White if we get him.

Just think we have to play 2 rucks if McStay goes.
Rayner FF as when McStay goes only one who can take a contested mark.
We trade in a new mid who will play 22.
I think Dev ask for a trade.
Even Prior weird not signed yet?
Lyons and Rich unless they come back fitter and better form I say we play only one
I think Wilmot gone past Madden as next in line
Zorko I think lost the pace now and just angry
Cockatoo I hope another pre season and we see his talent more.

I’m a big fan of this. Feel like Rayner and Lohmann could share time in the middle and change throughout. Particularly if lohmann spends time in the gym over summer. Hopefully dev hangs around and walks in to that side (ah Chee’s spot?) with Ashcroft and wilmott. Carter Michael also on standby as Rich’s replacement


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[royboys4eva]

Why does everyone think McCluggage natural position is wing? He played junior footy in the centre and when Ashcroft runs around next year I'm sure he will spend plenty of time on the wing to start with but that doesn't make him a winger!

Would be ridiculous to move McCluggage out of the centre when we only have Neale as it is!

 

[mattsmob]

Why does everyone think McCluggage natural position is wing? He played junior footy in the centre and when Ashcroft runs around next year I'm sure he will spend plenty of time on the wing to start with but that doesn't make him a winger!

Would be ridiculous to move McCluggage out of the centre when we only have Neale as it is!

100% a lot of the young guys we want to get into the team next season are probably best suited on the wing as well. Hugh has been very good this season in the middle and will only get better with more time and experience in there.

 

[Sanchez365]

Why does everyone think McCluggage natural position is wing? He played junior footy in the centre and when Ashcroft runs around next year I'm sure he will spend plenty of time on the wing to start with but that doesn't make him a winger!

Would be ridiculous to move McCluggage out of the centre when we only have Neale as it is!

Personally it's because of his light frame, and he hasn't seemed particularly good at being an extractor. Couple with the fact he is one of the best runners at the club and seems to work better in open space, the wing seems like a more suited role then an in and under guy.

He's clearly one of our best players though, love what he can do on the field.

 

[dlanod]

Personally it's because of his light frame, and he hasn't seemed particularly good at being an extractor. Couple with the fact he is one of the best runners at the club and seems to work better in open space, the wing seems like a more suited role then an in and under guy.

He's clearly one of our best players though, love what he can do on the field.

He's great and best (IMO) as the third player in the middle with two extractors. He doesn't have to get his hands on it first but that's not his strength. Seeing him spin through traffic and delivering lace out is a sight for sore eyes. Think Petracca or Josh Kelly or Bolton.

 

[BuntonRules]

Great runner - defensive and forward - on a wing. We must find out if Starc is the mid we need. Call it due diligence. Hughie outside of him is cream. Then he can be a bit inside, a bit out. That is Hughie's best role.

 

[martinson]

Totally disagree. Playing proven players who are out of form is far less of a risk than playing unknowns who might be capable of more but haven't shown it consistently at AFL level

Or guys like Matho who aren't capable of playing at a real high level but with form might be a short term improvement

I agree playing proven players out of form is less of a risk.

When they've been out of form for 10 or 12 games you have to wonder whether there's any risk at all.

 

[Sanchez365]

He's great and best (IMO) as the third player in the middle with two extractors. He doesn't have to get his hands on it first but that's not his strength. Seeing him spin through traffic and delivering lace out is a sight for sore eyes. Think Petracca or Josh Kelly or Bolton.

Yeah I agree, we just seem to have so many that can facilitate that role on our list, and not as many that could be the elite winger that he can be. Rayner, Bailey, Zorko are probably all best suited to the same position.

I don't really have an issue with Clug in the middle though. Neale as the main extractor, Clug ahead of the ball, and then... someone as that defensive minded mid?

 

[scoman]

FB: Payne Adams Answerth
HB: Coleman Andrews Starce
C: Berry *Dunkley Ashcroft
HF: Bailey Hipwood McCarthy
FF: Rayner Daniher Cameron

Oscar Neale, Clugga

Fort Willmot Dev Lohman

Sub: Ah Chee

Fort to play as second ruck and spend a good chunk forward. A much better option for the down the line kick or when it comes in a bit slower than Hipwood or Daniher.

Berry to drop a couple of kg's and play almost the full game as the defensive winger.

Dunkley and Dev to to add a bit of size and defense to our midfield group. Can both play forward for chunks of the game, Dunkley as a third tall option and Dev helping cover the smaller forwards.

Ashcroft to rotate with Clugga as that third (most attacking) mid

Bailey, Lohman, McCarthy and Cameron to concentrate on forward craft and defensive pressure rather than worry about minutes in the midfield or on the wing.

Quite a few players will need to impress from the get go: Payne, Adams, Andrews, Answerth (our defense is a mess, but I feel that's more of a structural problem than personnel) and McCarthy (can go missing and I am tempted to add Ah Chee as a defensive forward in his place).

Ah Cheee and Prior a tad unlucky, but likely to play plenty of games.

Rich, Lyons and Zorko to play VFL unless they have the preseason of their lives, which is highly unlikely. If an opportunity to trade or retire any of these three presents that allows them some dignity, we should consider it.



*Dunkley may be a pipe dream tbf.

 

[RowellAnderson12]

It seems Jarrod Berry

7

Jarrod Berry

Age

26

Ht

192cm

Wt

89kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

17.4

4star

K

8.5

3star

HB

8.9

5star

M

3.9

4star

T

4.2

5star

CL

2.7

4star

D

17.0

4star

K

9.4

4star

HB

7.6

4star

M

3.6

4star

T

5.1

5star

CL

2.9

4star

D

10.6

3star

K

4.4

2star

HB

6.2

4star

M

1.8

2star

T

2.8

5star

CL

0.8

3star

is destined to hold down a wing for the foreseeable future, is that because inside is too stacked?

Also Jaxon Prior would love him at the Suns, but seems like he's going to be the other winger going off your sides, has he played any defence or was he just defensively running back well.

Also hope you push Zorko out the door, need to play the kids

 

[scoman]

It seems Jarrod Berry is destined to hold down a wing for the foreseeable future, is that because inside is too stacked?

Also Jaxon Prior would love him at the Suns, but seems like he's going to be the other winger going off your sides, has he played any defence or was he just defensively running back well.

Also hope you push Zorko out the door, need to play the kids

Its a tricky one with Berry as he possesses the size and defensive mindset to be the missing link in our midfield. However despite the odd strong game on the ball (usually a tagging role), he hasn't been able to really cement that position. I think he lacks composure when its in tight and is a bit slow with his decision making. He also finds himself injured quite often when playing there.

Imho its time we just set and forget him on that defensive wing and let him build continuity in that role. He is quite a team first kind of guy, an excellent runner, works better with a bit of time and space and is a good mark of the ball as well.

 

[briztoon]

It seems Jarrod Berry is destined to hold down a wing for the foreseeable future, is that because inside is too stacked?

Also Jaxon Prior would love him at the Suns, but seems like he's going to be the other winger going off your sides, has he played any defence or was he just defensively running back well.

Also hope you push Zorko out the door, need to play the kids

Berry has shoulder issues, can't handle the bash and crash inside.

Prior was a HBF as a junior.