For the believers, 2016 season still alive

[SpaceClef]

For some reason when Nic plays a lot of our players seem to grow a leg. Obviously in the mind but without stating the obvious will miss the class of Nic's ruck taps and ground work. All that we ask is that they give it their best, ie not leave too much to too few!

They just need to learn to grow that third leg without his assistance (no homo)

It's clearly a psychological thing, so someone needs to step up and lead the side and we can still be a force.

 

[Moose1414]

If you did read the whole article, does it actually say anywhere that the removal of the plantaris tendon could lead to a torn ACL? Seems to me what they are saying is that the plantaris tendon could get damaged when there is an injury to the ACL.

For the record, Naitanui had no plantaris tendon when he tore his ACL and this tendon is absent in 8-12% of the population (this is from Wikipedia, I am no medical expert); does this mean that 8-12% of the population are at a risk of ACL injury? I don't think there are any surgeons out there (well qualified ones anyway) who would remove body parts from patients without looking at relevant literature and consequences of removing. If the club, and Naitanui obviously, consented to plantaris surgery with or without knowing there will be high risks (as you suggested) then we are stupider than Essendon.

Obviously, having Sinclair in the team instead of Lycett wouldn't have made any difference in this case; both would be doing roughly the same workload when Naitanui is playing. There is no way we would keep Lycett in our list beyond this year if Sinclair was still our 2nd ruckman behind Naitanui.

I read that article and a fair few more and tried to start a thread based on discussing the pro's and con's of the op he had because it seems like the first time its been done in the AFL, possibly the first/among the first of its type done on an athlete anywhere. Was keen to hear from some posters who could offer some solid medical knowledge. Mods shut it down so it was a bit of a wasted effort.

The article you read just described what plantaris tendons are and established a link between them and the ACL. In my other post I quoted this from the last paragraph of that article, you're saying you read it?

"As proper management for muscular injury in general is scarce, it is not surprising that the literature is lacking with regards to the proper management of plantaris injury. Also lacking in the literature is a solid understanding as to the role that the plantaris plays in functional mechanics. Further research is needed in order to assess its importance to mechanics as well as its role in other conditions affecting the knee."

If you want to read about the sort of op he had I suggest this other article. Which highlights how new this procedure is, describes how they actually do 2 things a) cutting out the plantaris tendon then b) doing a scrape and tidy up of the achilles. Then they go on to say they don't even know which thing it is that gives the relief the excision or the scrape. Hardly a time honoured procedure with an established success rate, we're talking about operating on our best player here.

But in the reading I did I kind of saw there might be value in having the achilles procedure done anyway because it could of been the only option for Nic to be able to get through a season pain free [essentially the plantaris cuts across the achilles causing tenderness and inflammation, which given the huge amount of running and jumping required in his job would be unmanageable over the duration of a season given no ability to take time off and rest] so the question becomes was the recovery time right?

As you said some people are born without a plantaris at all and cope fine, and i'll add some people who do an ACL will lose their plantaris as a donor ligament to fix the knee. But in both those cases there is an element of time, a lifetime in one case, 12 months in another for the other ligaments to adapt and build strength to compensate with the load. Nic's body didn't get enough that time for that in all probability.

The fact that when someone does ruptures an ACL the plantaris goes as well most of the time, or vice versa, would suggest these are 2 ligaments closely connected. No I wasn't able to find literature on the vulnerability of ACL's if plantaris tendons are removed and thats just becuase its a new and uncommon procedure and that litterature might not even exist. But, for me at least, it would be illogical to assume it isn't a consideration.

It could well be that typically this vulnerability is manageable with patients who aren't 110kg athletes playing elite sport 10 weeks post op, it just doesn't appear clear to me a whole lot of athlete's have had the op or whether there is consensus what the recovery period should be. The Eagles didn't seem to know how long it would take for him to get back when it happened. Going back 2 we were clueless if he would play again this season, it seemed to very much be a wait and see. Then pretty quickly he started running and jumping pain free and everyone seems to of thought ok sweet, we'll play him. But had the leg had enough time not just to recover functionally to pre-op level but also to pre-op strength and durability? Who knows, its an interesting question. He certainly didn't do his ACL before the op though.

These questions will probably never be answered by the club but to anyone who says plantaris and ACL's operate independently to one another and Nics rupture occurred in a vacuum and definitely had nothing to do with the first procedure I say bullshit. How significant the link is is up for debate [or not, mods?] but there is some link physiologically. That being the case clearly there was some potential for complications of this nature. Maybe they were insignificant, maybe not. I'm erring on the side of thinking the achilles op was sound but the recovery was rushed and that led to an unintended ruptured ACL, shit happens. Hopefully the next time someone has the same procedure they learn from this and more conservative approach to recovery is taken.

 

[Woobla Stainz]

Norfs Ladder position cannot change now . Tank the last game wont they . Gives gws every opportunity doesnt it

That you Yoda?

 

[sey666]

First of all, do you have any medical or scientific background? Otherwise I think you are talking about things way out of your league here. I suggest you read what is in ep2006 signature.

I read that article and a fair few more and tried to start a thread based on discussing the pro's and con's of the op he had because it seems like the first time its been done in the AFL, possibly the first/among the first of its type done on an athlete anywhere. Was keen to hear from some posters who could offer some solid medical knowledge. Mods shut it down so it was a bit of a wasted effort.

You are very brave - research articles are very hard to read through at the best of times. With regard to the other thread, I'd say the mods have got this correct.

The article you read just described what plantaris tendons are and established a link between them and the ACL. In my other post I quoted this from the last paragraph of that article, you're saying you read it?

"As proper management for muscular injury in general is scarce, it is not surprising that the literature is lacking with regards to the proper management of plantaris injury. Also lacking in the literature is a solid understanding as to the role that the plantaris plays in functional mechanics. Further research is needed in order to assess its importance to mechanics as well as its role in other conditions affecting the knee."

What are these conditions anyway? Keeping the ACL safe?

Yes I did read a little. The following is from the conclusion from that article (you actually quoted this but I think you misinterprited it)
" A strain of the more proximal plantaris muscle belly may also occur as an isolated injury, or in conjunction with injury to the adjacent ACL"

This article does NOT say an ACL injury results from the removal of plantaris tendon - it just says that a strain of plantaris tendon could occur as a result of an ACL injury.

If you want to read about the sort of op he had I suggest this other article. Which highlights how new this procedure is, describes how they actually do 2 things a) cutting out the plantaris tendon then b) doing a scrape and tidy up of the achilles. Then they go on to say they don't even know which thing it is that gives the relief the excision or the scrape. Hardly a time honoured procedure with an established success rate, we're talking about operating on our best player here.

Are you suggesting the club took a gamble with its most important player without any regard to the consequences? Has the club ever done anything like that in the past?

But in the reading I did I kind of saw there might be value in having the achilles procedure done anyway because it could of been the only option for Nic to be able to get through a season pain free [essentially the plantaris cuts across the achilles causing tenderness and inflammation, which given the huge amount of running and jumping required in his job would be unmanageable over the duration of a season given no ability to take time off and rest] so the question becomes was the recovery time right?

Do you really think the WCE decides the recovery time? I am pretty sure that it is up to the surgeons to decide the appropriate recovery time.

As you said some people are born without a plantaris at all and cope fine, and i'll add some people who do an ACL will lose their plantaris as a donor ligament to fix the knee. But in both those cases there is an element of time, a lifetime in one case, 12 months in another for the other ligaments to adapt and build strength to compensate with the load. Nic's body didn't get enough that time for that in all probability.

This 12 months is for ACL recovery, nothing to do with the plantaris. Why would Nic need 12 months? He did not have any ligaments implanted they just took some out.
Now this plantaris as a donor ligament is the funny part about your whole argument. If the plantaris is indeed indispensible for the protection of the ACL as you say it is then why would anyone in their right mind remove and transplant it in the knee thereby making the knee susceptible further injuries in the future? Makes no sense at all.

The fact that when someone does ruptures an ACL the plantaris goes as well most of the time, or vice versa, would suggest these are 2 ligaments closely connected. No I wasn't able to find literature on the vulnerability of ACL's if plantaris tendons are removed and thats just becuase its a new and uncommon procedure and that litterature might not even exist. But, for me at least, it would be illogical to assume it isn't a consideration.

It could well be that typically this vulnerability is manageable with patients who aren't 110kg athletes playing elite sport 10 weeks post op, it just doesn't appear clear to me a whole lot of athlete's have had the op or whether there is consensus what the recovery period should be. The Eagles didn't seem to know how long it would take for him to get back when it happened. Going back 2 we were clueless if he would play again this season, it seemed to very much be a wait and see. Then pretty quickly he started running and jumping pain free and everyone seems to of thought ok sweet, we'll play him. But had the leg had enough time not just to recover functionally to pre-op level but also to pre-op strength and durability? Who knows, its an interesting question. He certainly didn't do his ACL before the op though.

These questions will probably never be answered by the club but to anyone who says plantaris and ACL's operate independently to one another and Nics rupture occurred in a vacuum and definitely had nothing to do with the first procedure I say bullshit. How significant the link is is up for debate [or not, mods?] but there is some link physiologically. That being the case clearly there was some potential for complications of this nature. Maybe they were insignificant, maybe not. I'm erring on the side of thinking the achilles op was sound but the recovery was rushed and that led to an unintended ruptured ACL, shit happens. Hopefully the next time someone has the same procedure they learn from this and more conservative approach to recovery is taken.

Please provide proof to back this vice versa part.

How would you know the second bolded bit?

Do you have any evidence to back your claim in the third bolded bit?

Again, any proof to back up the fourth bolded bit? Are you seriously saying the surgeons who did the first operation did not know what they were doing and hence the shorter recovery time?

 

[EagleEgo]

Actually we still have a good chance of moving into top 4 if we win the Adelaide game. It requires:
1. WCE beat Adelaide
2. Collingwood beat Hawks
3. N Melbourne beat GWS in Melbourne.

Within Nic Nat injuried, we lost a big hard tackler around the pack (as well as his excellent hit out). However, I can see that we have the abilities to increase our aggression and playing tighter zone defence in the last few matches. We should have a good 2016 Finals results as long as we play hard.

 

[KTee]

Barrass to come into the backline, McGovern to CHF and Darling to ruck/rove

 

[Winky]

Nah just need some more players in the right age bracket.

Conca, Howlett, these types

You have the appropriate guy in your avatar if you rate Conca and Howlett.

 

[Winky]

Barrass to come into the backline, McGovern to CHF and Darling to ruck/rove

I'd rather ruck Barass. He takes a good grab and has a bit of a leap. McGovern is too valuable bring it out of defence at the moment

 

[TheGhostOfJohnBelushi]

You know what's weird about this season - the 7th placed finishing team is either going to have 15 or 16 wins. That's never happened before. Usually 15 wins snags you 5th at worst while 16 wins in most season pushes you into a top 2 spot, if not then definitely top 4.

The closest to this season is 2012 where the bottom portion of the top 8 had teams on 14 wins, which is still unusual given most seasons are 12-13 win sides in those 6-8 spots.

The caveat is 2012 had the Gold Coast/GWS easy beat teams while this year has the Essendon/Brisbane/Fremantle teams. Still, unlucky to knock up 15 or 16 wins and finish 7th. We seem to have a knack for stuff like that, like 2011 when we racked up a 17-5 record and still only finished 4th. Most years that's a top spot record.

 

[The Passenger]

The season is not over, and you can bet the players don't believe that. But there is no doubt the task just got significantly harder. It's always hard to win from outside the top four, and making the top four was a tough proposition. We need three upsets this weekend. Us beat Crows (With or without NicNat would've been an unexpected result), Hawks lose to Pies, GWS lose to North. None of which are massive upsets, but all three together would be something.

I really don't think the Top 4 is as crucial to premiership success this year as it has been for past years. Remember that everyone gets a week off before finals, that could freshen up a lot of players and we all know how even the top 6-7 teams are on any given day. Having two byes in 3 weeks could stagnate some teams who finish in the top 4.

You might be right this year as it is so close and the week between Round 23 and finals gives every team a chance to rest up. But every year for god knows how long people have said this, and it's been a long long time since a team has made the GF from outside the top 4. Last year was the first time since 2006 a team had lost a preliminary final after winning the 1v4 or 2v3 match.

 

[Eagle got a win]

Even if we upset manage to beat Adelaide this week which I can't see it but if we did we amazingly still probably won't make the top 4.
Sydney, Hawks,Geelong have easy teams and better percentage and Crows have a much better percentage then ours that it would require a smashing.

A win and we are still likely to finish 5th or stay the same 6th regardless.

Only spot we could take is the Hawks if they lose but GWS have a better percentage and will likely win their match claiming 4th

Need Hawks, GWS to lose and we upset the Crows.

say we have 5% chance of that happening

On a side note Bulldogs play crappy Freo and would take sixth.

We are most likely going to play away against the Bulldogs first week of finals.

Round 23 is the worst fixture for us out of the top 8 teams.

 

[SpaceClef]

You have the appropriate guy in your avatar if you rate Conca and Howlett.

 

[Shifty1]

Hopefully we'll have Matt Priddis saying this after the grand final siren!

 

[javaguice]

We can't challenge again til 2018. Sans jk pridda etc.

Might hibernate for a while.

 

[2006_Eagles]

 

[ConcreteWaters]

Finally got to see the last quarter v the hawks. All we gotta do is bring that pressure. Hutchings plays a permanent shut down role from here on in. Sheed to go into 5th gear this week.

 

[Dark Sharks]

By the time Nicnat gets back, Shuey will be captain, and Sexual would have just won his first AA.

 

[frenchconnection]

Barrass to come into the backline, McGovern to CHF and Darling to ruck/rove

McGOvern out of the backline - just no!! Not at this late stage. did you not see what happened when he was moved into the ruck in a previous game (forget which game it was). The backline needs him.

 

[Goldfish]

McGOvern out of the backline - just no!! Not at this late stage. did you not see what happened when he was moved into the ruck in a previous game (forget which game it was). The backline needs him.

I think this is 2 different things. I agree the backline needs him, but the main issue was how poor he was in the ruck, and therefore he was missed in the backline. If we could break even in the ruck with a different player, McGovern forward would cause huge issues for sides.

 

[Brave Sir Robin]

Actually we still have a good chance of moving into top 4 if we win the Adelaide game.

Even if we win the Adelaide game it's about a 5% chance of happening.

 

[Keys]

Even if we win the Adelaide game it's about a 5% chance of happening.

Just need Collingwood to roll hawthorn and Norf to beat GWS

Bet365 is paying $41.66 for all 3 results so 5% might be being generous

 

[Brave Sir Robin]

Just need Collingwood to roll hawthorn and Norf to beat GWS

Bet365 is paying $41.66 for all 3 results so 5% might be being generous

He said assuming we beat Adelaide - do that and it's about 5% assuming the bookies overestimate the % slightly.

 

[flamingEMBERS]

Even if we upset manage to beat Adelaide this week which I can't see it but if we did we amazingly still probably won't make the top 4.
Sydney, Hawks,Geelong have easy teams and better percentage and Crows have a much better percentage then ours that it would require a smashing.

A win and we are still likely to finish 5th or stay the same 6th regardless.

Only spot we could take is the Hawks if they lose but GWS have a better percentage and will likely win their match claiming 4th

Need Hawks, GWS to lose and we upset the Crows.

say we have 5% chance of that happening

On a side note Bulldogs play crappy Freo and would take sixth.

We are most likely going to play away against the Bulldogs first week of finals.

Round 23 is the worst fixture for us out of the top 8 teams.

Not like we haven't beat the Doggies at the 'G in a final before.

 

[SpaceClef]

Wow....

The Eagles led at the start of the last quarter against Adelaide in round 12 and Collingwood in round 19 and lost both games.

Had they won both of those games they would be a game clear on top of the ladder with one round to go, assured of a top-four finish and in line to host another qualifying final

What a ****ing wasted season.

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2016-08-...k-time-what-would-your-club-change-about-2016

 

[nameless]

Wow....


What a ******* wasted season.

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2016-08-...k-time-what-would-your-club-change-about-2016

So many what-ifs, Sydney lost to Richmond with the last kick, so would be a game ahead anyway, also lost to Hawks by 5 points and WB by 4 points.

Geelong lost to Carlton, Collingwood and St Kilda!

Adelaide lost to North due to Goldstein going bonkers in the last. Lost to Hawks by 3 points because of #freekickhawthorn