Fremantle Dockers 2020/2021 and operation premiership

[Snuffaluphagus]

I don't think you do appreciate how good Sandilands is.
Why would you not want to play a person who is currently ranked 24th in the competition and is arguably the number 1 tap ruckman?

Making comparisons to de Boer and Brayshaw is a poor argument. I believe, like most, that Brayshaw will be better than de Boer. I don't believe any of our young ruck stocks will be better than Sandilands. Brayshaw's 2018 season is already on par or thereabouts with de Boer's 2015-2017 seasons. de Boer is now having a very good 2018 and would most likely still be playing for Freo if he was producing those numbers in 2015. None of our current ruck stocks are comparable to Sandilands.

Freo is not going to have a solid unit from 2018-2025 simply by blooding our young ruckmen. But if Freo are able to have depth in their squad and continually improve the team by bringing in better players with better form than our current 22, then wins will come and players will come and go. Bringing in youth of less talent to replace players of age of greater talent is what Carlton do. It doesn't work.

And yes, if Sandilands chooses to retire at end of this season or next it is a moot argument ... but that's not your argument. You are actively advocating for Sandilands to be delisted or forced in to retirement.

You actually have a stronger case arguing for Mundy to be immediately dropped to give youth a chance?

I really appreciate Sandi but if we want to compete in 2020 and onwards we need games into Darcy. Like, a lot of games. Sandi is not going to be there in 2020 or 2021 so a tough call will need to be made

 

[Silversurfer]

Reckon that's disrespectful to Darcy? Who also needs finals experience?

Nope...if he is good enough they both play. Both are handy enough up forward.

 

[Freomaniac]

Here are the ages of some key players in 2020.

Fyfe 29, Stephen Hill 30, Walters 29, Brad Hill 28, Taberner 27, Luke Ryan 25, Neale 26, Connor Blakely 25, Sandilands 37 (??) Mundy 35(??) Cerra 20 Brayshaw 20 Giro 20, Banfield 21, Wilson 27, Logue 24, Apeness 26, Darcy 22, Cox 21, Dixon 20, A Pearce 25 Joel Hamling 25.

So, what does all this have to do with the price of tea in china?
Our key defenders: Hamling and Pearce, will be at the perfect age and experience.
Our key forwards: Taberner, Apeness, Cox, Dixon, will have more experience and are at the perfect age.
Our small forwards: Walters, Matera, will still be in their prime.
Our elite midfielders: Fyfe, Walters, Neale, Blakely - will still be in their prime.
Our emerging midfielders: Cerra, Brayshaw, Banfield, Giro - will have another 50 games of experience under their belt.
The only question mark is in our ruck - Sandi - who is too old.

My 2 bobs worth: Forget recruiting McGovern, Hogan or any other high profile player. Keep this list for 2 years and back them in, then draft a really good mature age ruck man as cover for Darcy in 2019.

I reckon we only have a 2 year window but this list has the potential to go all the way in 2020/2021 ladies and gentlemen!

That isn't a bad bunch of guys for freos next finals push. I can see freo have another 4-5 year finals run. from 2020-2023/4

No thanks...I'll be much happier with Darcy/Apeness running our ruck division in 2020.

Apeness being a ruck forward and Darcy being a main ruck is fine too. I just think we need A jono griffin type ruckman. Some one that isn't the best ruckman but can fill inif Darcy is injured. Jono Griffin played a lot of games from 2012-17 due to Sandi being injured every 2nd game on average.

 

[Arcassius]

I don't think you do appreciate how good Sandilands is.
Why would you not want to play a person who is currently ranked 24th in the competition and is arguably the number 1 tap ruckman?

Making comparisons to de Boer and Brayshaw is a poor argument. I believe, like most, that Brayshaw will be better than de Boer. I don't believe any of our young ruck stocks will be better than Sandilands. Brayshaw's 2018 season is already on par or thereabouts with de Boer's 2015-2017 seasons. de Boer is now having a very good 2018 and would most likely still be playing for Freo if he was producing those numbers in 2015. None of our current ruck stocks are comparable to Sandilands.

Freo is not going to have a solid unit from 2018-2025 simply by blooding our young ruckmen. But if Freo are able to have depth in their squad and continually improve the team by bringing in better players with better form than our current 22, then wins will come and players will come and go. Bringing in youth of less talent to replace players of age of greater talent is what Carlton do. It doesn't work.

And yes, if Sandilands chooses to retire at end of this season or next it is a moot argument ... but that's not your argument. You are actively advocating for Sandilands to be delisted or forced in to retirement.

You actually have a stronger case arguing for Mundy to be immediately dropped to give youth a chance?

Again, agree to disagree you're never going to be able to convince me to your point of view or yours to mine. As I said, I believe it will be moot within the next year. He'll retire 'because it's time' in the same way Pav did

Sandi, Ballas, MJ, DP all gone - at best, 1 more year and kept as depth

 

[freo84]

No point in not playing a young Ruckman with a young developing team. Sandi is a once in a generation ruckman and he will be sorely missed. Let him play a few and rest him but bang games into Darcy as well. He needs to synergise with our midfield.

 

[SHill Shall]

Again, agree to disagree you're never going to be able to convince me to your point of view or yours to mine. As I said, I believe it will be moot within the next year. He'll retire 'because it's time' in the same way Pav did

Sandi, Ballas, MJ, DP all gone - at best, 1 more year and kept as depth

It makes no sense to bracket those players. Three of those are now well past it and are liabilities when selected. One of them is still playing at a level that is among the best in the league - even though commentators stoically refuse to acknowledge that fact. Grundy, Naitanui and Gawn would all have arguments for being better overall than Sandi - no one else. He is performing in the upper quartile of rucks in 2018. And no one is a better tap ruckman.

 

[Arcassius]

It makes no sense to bracket those players. Three of those are now well past it and are liabilities when selected. One of them is still playing at a level that is among the best in the league - even though commentators stoically refuse to acknowledge that fact. Grundy, Naitanui and Gawn would all have arguments for being better overall than Sandi - no one else. He is performing in the upper quartile of rucks in 2018. And no one is a better tap ruckman.

There is a logic to it because all those players (and Mundy if you want to be specific) have something in common.

I don't have Mundy on that list because he actively contributes in onfield coaching in a way the others don't and there's value in that right now and for (possibly) another year. Having him on our list has nothing to do with his statistical output but leadership. It's a non tangible. Anyhow, like I said to Purple, happy to agree to disagree on this - I just see things differently to you guys

 

[Rion]

Dropping Sandi has more to do with getting Darcy games than any comment on Sandi's form. It would be a complete disaster if we battle through this entire rebuild only to come out the other side in contention mode with a set of young ruckman who have all played less than 20 games.

 

[Son of a Wizard]

Dropping Sandi has more to do with getting Darcy games than any comment on Sandi's form. It would be a complete disaster if we battle through this entire rebuild only to come out the other side in contention mode with a set of young ruckman who have all played less than 20 games.

How about sometimes playing them both and sometimes playing one of them with Apeness/Tabs as the back up. Some flexibility for conditions, length of flights and different match ups could prove to be advantageous and will get games into all of them.

 

[go_the_dockers]

How about sometimes playing them both and sometimes playing one of them with Apeness/Tabs as the back up. Some flexibility for conditions, length of flights and different match ups could prove to be advantageous and will get games into all of them.

Dropping Sandi has more to do with getting Darcy games than any comment on Sandi's form. It would be a complete disaster if we battle through this entire rebuild only to come out the other side in contention mode with a set of young ruckman who have all played less than 20 games.

If Apeness, Sandi and Darcy are fit for the last 8 rounds, I see no reason all of them could play 5 games each.

That is pretty much 2 games on, 1 game off in rotation which I think would suit them all.

It would mean we play 2 rucks for the rest of the year, but they are ok forward so it would not affect us too much

 

[SHill Shall]

Dropping Sandi has more to do with getting Darcy games than any comment on Sandi's form. It would be a complete disaster if we battle through this entire rebuild only to come out the other side in contention mode with a set of young ruckman who have all played less than 20 games.

The reason you’re so keen to see Darcy have more games is that you saw him hold his own in his rookie year. I already trust him in the situation you outline. Sure he will develop further, but the key point is, he’s already good enough. The best way to fact track him, is make him compete for the number one spot with one of the best of all time - not hand it to him on a plate.

 

[Rion]

How about sometimes playing them both and sometimes playing one of them with Apeness/Tabs as the back up. Some flexibility for conditions, length of flights and different match ups could prove to be advantageous and will get games into all of them.

If Apeness, Sandi and Darcy are fit for the last 8 rounds, I see no reason all of them could play 5 games each.

That is pretty much 2 games on, 1 game off in rotation which I think would suit them all.

It would mean we play 2 rucks for the rest of the year, but they are ok forward so it would not affect us too much

That'll work for mine for the rest of the year definitely. Next year I'm not sure it can. I want Apeness and Darcy hitting that 30/40 game mark which they won't be able to do with Sandi around.

And how would that even work? Supporters talk about it all the time but it just isn't feasible to have Sandi (who'd still be better than both) playing 1 game out of 3 in the no.1 ruck role. If your at that point you just drop/trade the guy and move on surely.

I mean furthermore if Darcy/Ape perform really well in there 2 games are you really advocating dropping them just because you want to keep to the rotation?

The reason you’re so keen to see Darcy have more games is that you saw him hold his own in his rookie year. I already trust him in the situation you outline. Sure he will develop further, but the key point is, he’s already good enough. The best way to fact track him, is make him compete for the number one spot with one of the best of all time - not hand it to him on a plate.

You might trust a guy who's played less than 10 games to lead the ruck in a top 4 side but I certainly don't. The best way to fast track him is to give him games in the ones. If he's 'competing' for a number one spot against one of the best of all time he'll never win the spot and Sandi will play every single game he's available for next year.

 

[FreoMonocle]

re: Operation premiership.

There are things outside of our control, such as anything at the club itself...

But inside of our control. Cheering. Cheersquading. Bums on seats and cheering, standing and cheering.

How do we distil the brilliance of Seppo and inject it into our yellings? our screamings? and making ourselves appear bigger away (numbers of supporters) than we actually were? Frankly, my rare visits home over the years show me a home cheersquad with wet lettuce tendencies... We need his songbook, it needs to be mandatory reading - if you ever heard us sing "One Keplar Bradley" to the tune Guantanamera in full voice, you would be inspired to overcome all obstacles.

Scream for your team, good for the players morale, makes the umpires sway a little to our way of thinking. Intimidates our opponents...

The path to greatness and your homework for the next few years: Do your bit and be loud, don't sit passively. Stay to the bitter end and support the team on a bad day, turn up even if you couldn't be arsed when you heard the weather report... Also, keep your bronx cheers to yourself or why would the team want to play for you?

 

[Megalon]

No guarantee that Sandi will even play on next year, as a 211cm player turning 36 in December, he might decide to go out on top. He has been in the AFL system since the end of 2001, that's a helluva long time. I'm amazed his body has held up so well, but he did get some extended holiday time thanks to NicNat...

 

[Wally Walpamur]

I reckon Sandi does go on for at least one more year/flag tilt. He’s missed quiet a few games from injuries but hasn’t had to recover from a knee or broken bone. His body seems to be holding up well.

 

[Megalon]

The reason you’re so keen to see Darcy have more games is that you saw him hold his own in his rookie year. I already trust him in the situation you outline. Sure he will develop further, but the key point is, he’s already good enough. The best way to fact track him, is make him compete for the number one spot with one of the best of all time - not hand it to him on a plate.

Totally agree, he broke even in hitouts in many of his games. I think people are forgetting how great Darcy was for such a young and inexperienced (and unfit) player, it was like having an extra inside mid sometimes when he wasn't rucking... deft handballs to advantage, strong tackles, wasn't afraid to kick it, and pretty agile for a big guy. He will be a real weapon once he builds up his fitness, and I have no doubt that he will be #1 ruck. He won't always dominate the hitouts like Sandi but he's got all those other things going for him, and natural aggression. Can't wait to see him back in the 1s.

 

[SHill Shall]

You might trust a guy who's played less than 10 games to lead the ruck in a top 4 side but I certainly don't. The best way to fast track him is to give him games in the ones. If he's 'competing' for a number one spot against one of the best of all time he'll never win the spot and Sandi will play every single game he's available for next year.

Need a little more perspective. Richmond won last year with Nank for goodness sake. Darcy’s already as good as him in my view, let alone by 2020 training with Sandi and playing whenever the big man is injured or rested.

 

[Rion]

Need a little more perspective. Richmond won last year with Nank for goodness sake. Darcy’s already as good as him in my view, let alone by 2020 training with Sandi and playing whenever the big man is injured or rested.

I certainly don't think Darcy is as good as Nank over a season... (lets maybe temper expectations a little - Darcy has played 8 games, Nankervis played the year out and is a premiership ruck-man).

We build our entire midfield around Sandi right now imo. I'd like to see us given a year or two without the great man working things out before we are genuinely under the pump challenging. Ridiculous to hurt the development of a player who will be a key part of our next premiership side by keeping on a guy that definitely won't.

 

[TheMcManusNose]

I certainly don't think Darcy is as good as Nank over a season... (lets maybe temper expectations a little - Darcy has played 8 games, Nankervis played the year out and is a premiership ruck-man).

We build our entire midfield around Sandi right now imo. I'd like to see us given a year or two without the great man working things out before we are genuinely under the pump challenging. Ridiculous to hurt the development of a player who will be a key part of our next premiership side by keeping on a guy that definitely won't.

Tend to agree with this.

Look at Grundy now vs Grundy say 3 years ago when he was still really battling Witts for the prize of being the number 1 ruck. Huge difference in what he adds to the team with the extra ~40 games as the sole ruck under his belt. Don't think Darcy ends up as good as him but yeah. AFL experience is massive.

It's not so much can he handle it, because we know he can hold his own to an extent, it's can he break even against the real elite ruckman and provide a net positive to the team. That's only going to come with more game time. Not to mention the midfield set up is going to have to change and the understanding with the mids that comes with that time.

 

[Arcassius]

Tend to agree with this.

Look at Grundy now vs Grundy say 3 years ago when he was still really battling Witts for the prize of being the number 1 ruck. Huge difference in what he adds to the team with the extra ~40 games as the sole ruck under his belt. Don't think Darcy ends up as good as him but yeah. AFL experience is massive.

It's not so much can he handle it, because we know he can hold his own to an extent, it's can he break even against the real elite ruckman and provide a net positive to the team. That's only going to come with more game time. Not to mention the midfield set up is going to have to change and the understanding with the mids that comes with that time.

That last bit is the big one for me. We've learnt how to rove to Sandi for a decade, and the only way for the midfield to gel effectively with his replacement is to play with that person week in week out. To do it in halves and play Sandi sometimes and not others (because of statistical output, man management, or whatever you want to call it) compromises that - we need a chemistry that lasts for another decade, and that takes time and experience.

 

[theGav56]

Good arguments on both sides. I'd give Sandilands another contract if we have salary space for it, on the understanding he is back up. I'd evaluate how to use him after the pre-season. Apeness and Taberner have been fragile and the others unconvincing. Darcy our only serious #1.

At the bye I'd evaluate again. If we're out of contention, Sandilands retires/coaches. If we are going well, we program him into finals planning.

 

[Galvo]

Good arguments on both sides. I'd give Sandilands another contract if we have salary space for it, on the understanding he is back up. I'd evaluate how to use him after the pre-season. Apeness and Taberner have been fragile and the others unconvincing. Darcy our only serious #1.

At the bye I'd evaluate again. If we're out of contention, Sandilands retires/coaches. If we are going well, we program him into finals planning.

I agree with this approach. We would’ve been in trouble this year if Sandi wasn’t on the list with the injuries we’ve had and next year could be the same.

We haven’t had any luck with big guys coming back from knee injuries so I don’t think there are any guarantees with Darcy being a robust option either

 

[ydraw]

Need a little more perspective. Richmond won last year with Nank for goodness sake. Darcy’s already as good as him in my view, let alone by 2020 training with Sandi and playing whenever the big man is injured or rested.

Lots of ruckmen are as good as Nank, as a ruckman he's only average. But not many can play 95% of game time in the ruck every week and not break down like him, that's what makes him so important. Richmond basically get to play an extra mid because they don't need a backup.