Fremantle & Ross Lyon

[wild side]

Games gone past us, coach is back in the 90's, don't play the yoof.
Who wants to take us on @ subi??
We are shizen, no doubt!!

 

[Quokka]

This is spot on.
Although a lengthy injury list may have distorted what most of us seemingly observed - that Freo were on a rapid decline, I find it utterly baffling how much the Freo hierarchy and Ross have drastically overestimated this list up until seemingly this week.

It seems what most Freo fans want and maybe now will get is a clear expectation and direction as to where their club is heading.

The messages coming from Ross and the dockers over the past 18 months have been confusing at best and left purple army fans somewhat disillusioned.
Ask any docker fans what they expect this year and a wider than normal spectrum of answers and expectations ranging from bottom 4 to premiers, emerges.

The Saints, Carlton and Melbourne have done this well over the past few seasons for the most part, enabling their fan bases to enjoy a sense of optimism by observing a raft of young talented draftees ply their trade on what look to be exciting emerging lists, despite lengthy final sabbaticals from all 3 clubs.

Still agree with most of this post except to argue that Lyon's preference for established players has possibly also distorted that much of our trading/drafting since Lyon has arrived has been ok or even a little better than that.

This is still a multi-year rebuild and we wont often catch teams as off guard as we did the doggies tonight but just maybe there's a little bit in the Dockers list to build around.

 

[External Inputs]

Well they replaced him with a clean guy in Worsfold at least.

It's a shame they didn't have him earlier, he's someone who knows how to handle a drug crisis.

 

[dockshark]

That pitiful handful of best examples of ross's prowess in developing freos youth isn't making your point very well.

So... anyway, you were saying...?

 

[JayJ20]

See what happens when you play an attacking brand of football with the youth that Fremantle have? Still a good core of players to help the youngsters.

The old defensive gameplan doesn't suit the quick style that the competition is moving towards. It also doesn't suit the type of players that they have.

The kids will still make some mistakes, but that was a fair effort which is much better to see for Fremantle fans than whatever they've dished up the 2 rounds prior.

The rest of the year looks interesting

 

[Eski3]

Maybe people shouldn't make such grand sweeping conclusions off a sample size of 2 ****ing games next time

 

[Coolangatta]

Okay, after that much improved performance, surely Ross the boss goes with an unchanged lineup for next week.

 

[dockshark]

See what happens when you play an attacking brand of football with the youth that Fremantle have? Still a good core of players to help the youngsters.

The old defensive gameplan doesn't suit the quick style that the competition is moving towards. It also doesn't suit the type of players that they have.

Last night was no great change in game plan or approach. It's just that our midfield lifted and we hit targets across centre back, as well as lowering the ball coming into the fwd 50 giving our forwards more opportunity.

Hilarious thread this is.

 

[Kram]

Okay, after that much improved performance, surely Ross the boss goes with an unchanged lineup for next week.

Wouldn't mind Tucker coming back in if anybody.

 

[Tazmania]

Last night was no great change in game plan or approach. It's just that our midfield lifted and we hit targets across centre back, as well as lowering the ball coming into the fwd 50 giving our forwards more opportunity.

Hilarious thread this is.

seriously? You didn't notice that the first instinct of most of the players WASNT to kick it sideways or backwards?

we haven't used the corridor like that for nearly two years!

 

[dcutter]

Fremantle has been consistently saying they're aiming to rebuild mainly (Maynely?) via the draft (hopefully picking as many WA based players as possible) since late last year. Rebuilding via the draft has been a fairly consistent message.
Although comparing Fremantle's opportunity to rebuild via the draft so far, and the three teams you mentioned is not exactly a fair comparison. You really need to compare us to Hawthorn, North Melbourne and Geelong for that comparison to have any validity.

That we're worse at the moment than those three teams is not in doubt, but at least they're three teams that have been in the same drafting position - successful for a number of years, and are now beginning to slide and potentially will need to rebuild as we are.
I could just as easily accuse Hawthorn of not looking at reality at the moment, because they're still trading in for needs at the expense of the draft trying desperately to hold onto a sliding ladder position.
Maybe that's the conversation you should really be having, considering it's your team and all.

So of course we're going to trade in a few young position players (and the bonus of Bradley Hill), and we did delist a bunch of plodders at the end of last year. What are we supposed to do, turn down Bradley Hill to make the supporters feel happy because we're "staying on message"? Knock back Kersten because we've found this brilliant young KPF in the draft? Tell Hamling the defenders we supposedly have coming through the WAFL are better than him anyway?
Knocking back any of those players, considering they cost us bugger all, in order to "stay on message" and take picks in the 40's and fifties in the draft instead - now that would have been stupid.

I'm fairly sure that if we'd chosen to use some late draft picks and knocked back Hill, Kersten and Hamling would have had a significantly larger proportion of bigfooty posters calling us idiots than there are telling us we're idiots for taking them.


And with regard to the last bit, it hasn't been obvious at all that the hierarchy believed we were a chance to make finals this year.
If sometimes Lyon has said "we think we're a chance to make finals" it's been no more than a nod towards the aforementioned danger that you can't admit you're not playing your best team without inviting an AFL investigation into tanking, these days.

Saying you think we're still a chance to make finals at the start of the season is pretty much the same thing as making some vague punching motions while holding the ball to your chest in order to satisfy the umpires you're making an attempt to get it out.
It's bullshit. Everyone knows it's bullshit. But you have to go through the motions to stay on script with the media and the AFL.

You make a good point here - Freo being compared with Hawthorn, North Melboure and Geelong in their rebuilds is a more suitable comparison.

I don't at all think Freo's trading in the off season was bad - in fact I thought it was absolutely spot on. Getting 3 young established players - 2 who look highly likely, is in my mind a much better outcome than running the draft lottery. In addition to this I don't believe Hawthorn are trading in for needs. O'meara and Mitchell are two young A graders who will more than likely play the next 10 years for Hawthorn.
Vickery flies under the banner of a needs based player however as we got him through free agency is a virtual free hit.

Sending out Sam and Lewis, whilst bloody hard to watch, only progresses the toughest job in football - rebuilding a team after a successful era.

My main point here was that if Freo are serious about a rebuild then just don't give games to Dawson, Suban, Clarke, D Peace etc anymore and fast track this rebuild with the view of 2-3 years time. The issue at hand here is the club saying one thing then doing the other - rounds 1-2 are testament to this.
No one at AFL headquarters will blink an eye of Logue comes in for Dawson nor Balic for Suban.

Last night Freo played with what was it? 4 debutants. Close to it anyway and nailed the reigning premier.
They played with a more attacking mindset and looked sharp. Ross is a subborn man. Its not lost on anyone that most Freo fans and the general public have been pushing for some serious changes not only to personnel but within their game plan. The dockers possess and arsenal of runners that can break the lines.
It baffles me they haven't played with this style of play earlier.

 

[dockshark]

seriously? You didn't notice that the first instinct of most of the players WASNT to kick it sideways or backwards?

we haven't used the corridor like that for nearly two years!

I've been to all 3 games live and am telling you there was no major change to structure or method last night.

The major difference last night was increased intensity around the ball and improved tackling effort couple with better ball use by hand and foot. That's what they were trying to do against Port, they just ****ed it up. We over used the handball against Port and sold ourselves into trouble. That crept in last night in the third and the Bulldogs got on top of us beacause of it. In the fourth we straightened up, and got the ball on the boot.

Gameplan is not some kind of switch you can flick.

 

[StCicatriz]

Can this cesspool of a thread be closed now?

going be ross's demeanor during the game and after i'd say no. he could barely crack a smile. he knows the hole he is in, today was a good start but there's a mountain of work that needs to go into this season

what we saw yesterday is where the bar should be set for such a talented midfield. prior to that it been under performing by a very very large margin

 

[dockshark]

going be ross's demeanor during the game and after i'd say no. he could barely crack a smile. he knows the hole he is in, today was a good start but there's a mountain of work that needs to go into this season

what we saw yesterday is where the bar should be set for such a talented midfield. prior to that it been under performing by a very very large margin

I don't think it matters what Ross does, says, or thinks. There is a core of sad, bitter Saints supporters that will find a way of twisting it into something to criticise.

I think it's high time you blokes (or bloke as it is with Deflecto and his various aliases) gave up on this Ross Lyon witch hunt and focused on your own team. Seriously Ross has been gone for 6 years now and you're on your second coach post Ross. Let it go!!

 

[Kram]

going be ross's demeanor during the game and after i'd say no. he could barely crack a smile. he knows the hole he is in, today was a good start but there's a mountain of work that needs to go into this season

what we saw yesterday is where the bar should be set for such a talented midfield. prior to that it been under performing by a very very large margin

lol Deflecto.

 

[Kram]

I don't think it matters what Ross does, says, or thinks. There is a core of sad, bitter Saints supporters that will find a way of twisting it into something to criticise.

I think it's high time you blokes (or bloke as it is with Deflecto and his various aliases) gave up on this Ross Lyon witch hunt and focused on your own team. Seriously Ross has been gone for 6 years now and you're on your second coach post Ross. Let it go!!

If Alan Rickman and the Saints can't get past the lowly Bears today to go 0-3 god help them after all this gloating preseason and trolling.

 

[StCicatriz]

Still agree with most of this post except to argue that Lyon's preference for established players has possibly also distorted that much of our trading/drafting since Lyon has arrived has been ok or even a little better than that.

This is still a multi-year rebuild and we wont often catch teams as off guard as we did the doggies tonight but just maybe there's a little bit in the Dockers list to build around.

extremely fair comment

ross loves mature or ready made players. at st kilda its why he brought in players like michael gardiner, birs, matthew clarke, james wall, clinton jones, schneider, dempster, king, charlie gardiner, ray, begley, dawson, lovett, peake, jesse smith, pattison, will johnson, gamble, polo

i think he was pretty big on it because he came from the sydney system where they had more success from bring in discards and mature players. he then had some early success doing it at the saints with some notable trades/drafting in michael gardiner, clinton jones, schneider, dempster, king, ray, dawson but it fell away after 2008 with the poor decisions on lovett, smith, pattison, johnson, gamble, polo etc.

if you have a look at freo here are the mature players they brought in:
dawson, spurr, menegola, hannath, sylvia, gumbleton, bennell, collins, yarran, uebergan, mccarthy, hill, hamling, kersten, ryan

what is clear is that its no where near the rate of his time at st kilda even though the drafts are now more compromised than what they were before. also in that list the majority of it has come from the last couple of drafts/trade periods. which tells me its more about where they see the list. when he came to the saints the core of the list was ageing. it had only a handful of seasons to win a flag before its window jammed shut. i think when ross came to freo he had a larger group of younger players and more time to win a flag. as freo's lost aged they were more prepared to bring in mature players. last year demonstrates that. you can see that the majority of that list at freo have occurred towards the back end of ross's time there.

this is mirrored in his match day selection, where he is more likely to select experienced players over inexperienced players. its only when things look extremely bleak and they need to pump games into the kids does this get thrown out of the window. so from probably round 4 onwards last year and round 3 onwards this year

 

[purplearmy]

The crowd last night was just like the good times. The passion was back on and off the field.

 

[JayJ20]

Last night was no great change in game plan or approach. It's just that our midfield lifted and we hit targets across centre back, as well as lowering the ball coming into the fwd 50 giving our forwards more opportunity.

Hilarious thread this is.

Have you watched Fremantle in the first 2 rounds?

The first two rounds saw a lot of sideways and backwards kicking to try to take control of the game unsuccessfully. Last night the team took the game on and used quick ball movement to make Bulldogs look slow.

 

[smasha]

The wily old fox still has it.

 

[dockshark]

Have you watched Fremantle in the first 2 rounds?

The first two rounds saw a lot of sideways and backwards kicking to try to take control of the game unsuccessfully. Last night the team took the game on and used quick ball movement to make Bulldogs look slow.

I've been to all 3 games live mate, the structures and method were not dramatically different at all as you and others have made out. The execution and effort was much better in the first half and last quarter though.

 

[Power Raid]

Freo vs Melbourne will be a great match up after this weeks performance.

If they go 2 and 2, it will be an amazing turn around

 

[JonathanC]

I've been to all 3 games live mate, the structures and method were not dramatically different at all as you and others have made out. The execution and effort was much better in the first half and last quarter though.

I signed up right now just so I could tell you how wrong you are.

You're wrong.

 

[dockshark]

I signed up right now just so I could tell you how wrong you are.

You're wrong.

Wow. Your first post must be up there as most value add to the forum in history.

I'm not wrong, people just don't fully understand what they are seeing, and the TV doesn't tell anywhere near the whole story. I'll say it again, what we did last night is largely what we tried to do to Port we just lacked the intensity and execution to make it work.

If you want to post something with actual content then let's discuss.

 

[JonathanC]

Nah

Wow. Your first post must be up there as most value add to the forum in history.

I'm not wrong, people just don't fully understand what they are seeing, and the TV doesn't tell anywhere near the whole story. I'll say it again, what we did last night is largely what we tried to do to Port we just lacked the intensity and execution to make it work.

If you want to post something with actual content then let's discuss.

Thank you, I also agree that I add a lot of value.

I don't agree with you that the structure was the same (won't sit here trying to argue my point though)... however I fully agree with you that intensity and execution were the biggest factors in the change of performance. In particular, when we were attacking but forced out onto the wings, we looked for (and found) options to bring it across into the corridor instead of kicking to a contest along the boundary line. Higher risk, but look where it got us. Tackling intensity and pressure really stepped up too.

And as much as I don't like to point fingers, Dawson and Pearce being out helped us immensely too, massive change in mindset and we could actually get some decent running play from the backline all the way to our forward 50.