Geelong: why are they just not good enough?

[Whiskers]

How could they?
We are carrying a few blokes and Collingwood match up on us very well. Even if we are the fresher side, the sheer creativity of Collingwood's smalls will be enough to given them a chance of winning.
Grundy will dominate Stanley as well.

My theory is Collingwood played their GF last week.
The intensity usually goes down semi final week and we have a good record in week 2.
Our record after a bye is horrendous but equally as good the following week. We should be up and about and usually are for this particular week.

I do worry about our overall form the past month but I’m gonna back the boys in for this one.
Would’ve been even more confident against the eagles.
If we lose than wow, what a terrible way to finish.

 

[Ricky Vaughn]

Amazing second week off the bye trumps terrible in Finals.

Unfortunate timing for the Pies, but they benefited from it last year.

 

[TrimmyTraggot]

Why was Ratugolea not playing??
Surely he would have added something to the game.

He's a spud

 

[Seeds]

He's a spud

who made richmonds defence look second rate when finally put foward. The next week he is back in the ruck.

 

[Roddy]

Think about the legacies cultivated by teams like San Antonio in the NBA or the Broncos, before this year, in the NRL. Of course you want to be winning flags but if you don’t the next best thing is at least knowing week to week your side will be worth watching

Spoken like a true fan of a club that's won 3 flags in almost 60 years.

Keep telling yourself that over and over, at some point you might actually start believing it....

 

[PhatBoy]

Spoken like a true fan of a club that's won 3 flags in almost 60 years.

Keep telling yourself that over and over, at some point you might actually start believing it....

What, are you telling me what I believe and that I would actually rather be going s**house every week and getting belted 7 times out of 10?

Jog on mate.

I'm not debating with you about whether making the finals all the time and not winning is better than missing the finals a lot but popping up to win occasionally.

That is not what's being argued. Why? because there is no guarantee that you will win. Hawthorn have managed to do it. Mixed down periods with periods of huge success. Credit to them. What have Melbourne achieved? What have St Kilda and the Bulldogs, with one exception, achieved? What have Carlton achieved in the last quarter of a century? What have Fremantle achieved in their quarter of a century? SFA.

So yeah, if someone says to me, you can make the finals every year, be a shade or too below the best, but put yourself in with a chance, or you can disappear altogether, get a pat on the bum from the league to try and ensure you get back to the top even though it might not work, I know what I'm choosing.

I thought the Hawthorn arrogance had largely disappeared of late, beyond the rightful ability to claim that they've been incredibly successful.

Now it extends to telling opposition fans what they think and what they should think.

 

[BF Tiger]

Its

Spoken like a true fan of a club that's won 3 flags in almost 60 years.

Keep telling yourself that over and over, at some point you might actually start believing it....

It is the perfect response for a Geelong fan - quality over achievement. Think about it... 44 year premiership drought, but for a lot of it played finals, even lost a few GFs... but quality side. Achievement comes along in the form of 3 flags in 5 years. No B2B or three-peat to really bolster that achievement, so just push the quality with achievement (look at how many AAs, Brownlows, best player, wins, %). But it doesn’t match the Brisbane three-peat. Then Hawthorn come along and three-peat, pairing with the previous Geelong-achievement-destroying ‘08 flag. So let’s push the quality angle again, which is going great guns because we keeping making top 4 (quality) but never win anything (achievement).

 

[PhatBoy]

Its

It is the perfect response for a Geelong fan - quality over achievement. Think about it... 44 year premiership drought, but for a lot of it played finals, even lost a few GFs... but quality side. Achievement comes along in the form of 3 flags in 5 years. No B2B or three-peat to really bolster that achievement, so just push the quality with achievement (look at how many AAs, Brownlows, best player, wins, %). But it doesn’t match the Brisbane three-peat. Then Hawthorn come along and three-peat, pairing with the previous Geelong-achievement-destroying ‘08 flag. So let’s push the quality angle again, which is going great guns because we keeping making top 4 (quality) but never win anything (achievement).

Again, i don't know what you think doing it consecutively means. Do you get a bigger cup because your name is on the previous years' cup? Do Brisbane's trophies get encrusted with diamonds because the last digit on each of them sequentially follows the last digit on the previous cup? News to me if they are.

Would I have rathered we won 7-8-9 instead of 7-9-11? No.
Why? Because I got to see the same amount of flag wins, over a longer period - that's a personal preference and I don't expect everyone to feel the same way. It doesn't make it a better achievement. It is the same achievement. 3 flags with one generation of players.
Do you think after Pete Sampras won his third straight Wimbledon that everyone got on their knees and said "Well he's eclipsed Boris Becker now because Becker's three weren't in a row."

For the best part of 40 years your fans would have been happy to just be regulars in the second week of finals. Watch your bollocks grow now that you've won a few trophies.

What exactly do you think people are arguing at the moment? You're refuting an argument that doesn't exist.

Have ANY Cats fans tried to claim that "oh we're so great because we've made the finals heaps in the last 9 years without winning anything"?
Have they? Because unless my pixels look different to yours, I haven't noticed anyone do that. Do I want us to actually win a comp? Hell yes I do. Am I disappointed we haven't? Equally, yes.
Do I get to look forward to playing each week because I know my team is a strong chance of competing? Yes I do. Should I not? Should I start tearing up my Geelong merchandise because "well we won this week, and last week, and probably will again next week, but in the future we might not win the cup so I'll cut my jerseys into small strips and use them to bandage my wrists"?

F*** me the logic, the self-delusion about boasting the ability to discern what other people - who you've never met - think and why they think it is simply mind boggling.

And just to prove I'm consistent, I am a die-hard Roosters supporter. No team in 26 years had won back to back NRL titles until we did it last year. It doesn't make me think we're any better than the gun Melbourne or Manly sides that have won multiple premierships in the last 15 years.

 

[Dangerousfield]

Go Phat boy, what you say is 100% correct.

Waay too many Hawks and Richmond flogs clogging every thread with their self believing superiority.

 

[Roddy]

Its

It is the perfect response for a Geelong fan - quality over achievement. Think about it... 44 year premiership drought, but for a lot of it played finals, even lost a few GFs... but quality side. Achievement comes along in the form of 3 flags in 5 years. No B2B or three-peat to really bolster that achievement, so just push the quality with achievement (look at how many AAs, Brownlows, best player, wins, %). But it doesn’t match the Brisbane three-peat. Then Hawthorn come along and three-peat, pairing with the previous Geelong-achievement-destroying ‘08 flag. So let’s push the quality angle again, which is going great guns because we keeping making top 4 (quality) but never win anything (achievement).

From the extreme outrage and jealousy in the reactions it seems we've hit pretty close to the mark....

 

[PhatBoy]

From the extreme outrage and jealousy in the reactions it seems we've hit pretty close to the mark....

What jealousy? One of your teams I have an absolutely incredible amount of respect for, and considering they won a flag we could have, yes i am nominally jealous but it doesn't make my method of thought and analysis any different. What am I jealous of Richmond for? Winning one less flag?

"Oh please Tigers take this third trophy off our hands it's hurting me to look at it and I think it would be better off at Punt Road."

Geez mate get a grip. You tried to assume you knew something about what I and other Cats fans think and feel, and you got it wrong. Wear it and move on.

 

[VernonSpots]

Again, i don't know what you think doing it consecutively means. Do you get a bigger cup because your name is on the previous years' cup? Do Brisbane's trophies get encrusted with diamonds because the last digit on each of them sequentially follows the last digit on the previous cup? News to me if they are.

Would I have rathered we won 7-8-9 instead of 7-9-11? No.
Why? Because I got to see the same amount of flag wins, over a longer period - that's a personal preference and I don't expect everyone to feel the same way. It doesn't make it a better achievement. It is the same achievement. 3 flags with one generation of players.
Do you think after Pete Sampras won his third straight Wimbledon that everyone got on their knees and said "Well he's eclipsed Boris Becker now because Becker's three weren't in a row."

For the best part of 40 years your fans would have been happy to just be regulars in the second week of finals. Watch your bollocks grow now that you've won a few trophies.

What exactly do you think people are arguing at the moment? You're refuting an argument that doesn't exist.

Have ANY Cats fans tried to claim that "oh we're so great because we've made the finals heaps in the last 9 years without winning anything"?
Have they? Because unless my pixels look different to yours, I haven't noticed anyone do that. Do I want us to actually win a comp? Hell yes I do. Am I disappointed we haven't? Equally, yes.
Do I get to look forward to playing each week because I know my team is a strong chance of competing? Yes I do. Should I not? Should I start tearing up my Geelong merchandise because "well we won this week, and last week, and probably will again next week, but in the future we might not win the cup so I'll cut my jerseys into small strips and use them to bandage my wrists"?

F*** me the logic, the self-delusion about boasting the ability to discern what other people - who you've never met - think and why they think it is simply mind boggling.

And just to prove I'm consistent, I am a die-hard Roosters supporter. No team in 26 years had won back to back NRL titles until we did it last year. It doesn't make me think we're any better than the gun Melbourne or Manly sides that have won multiple premierships in the last 15 years.

It is well established in sporting codes GLOBALLY that 3-Peats are celebrated far more than 3 in X years given heightened difficulty. 1) It is natural for the players / club to drop a little bit of intensity and drive and 2) Every other club spends the off-season specifically targeting their game as this is the mountain to club if they too want to win the whole thing.

No-one here is disputing that Geelong's 3 flags during that span was an impressive achievement, but you are kidding yourself if you wouldn't rather 3-in-a-row.

 

[PhatBoy]

It is well established in sporting codes GLOBALLY that 3-Peats are celebrated far more than 3 in X years given heightened difficulty. 1) It is natural for the players / club to drop a little bit of intensity and drive and 2) Every other club spends the off-season specifically targeting their game as this is the mountain to club if they too want to win the whole thing.

No-one here is disputing that Geelong's 3 flags during that span was an impressive achievement, but you are kidding yourself if you wouldn't rather 3-in-a-row.

Sorry but again i don't understand what divine or legislative right has been given to you to tell me what I would or wouldn't rather. It's 3 flags. That's all I care about. I loved each of them. I am filthy we lost in 2008, but I'm filthy because we lost a flag we should have won, I'm not filthy because "oh well winning in 07-08-09 would have been so much better."

The global celebration of three-peats probably owes as much to the fact that it makes for a very boring and overused headline.

To use another rugby league analogy - the Eels and Bulldogs each won 4 titles in the 80s. I don't know a single person who looks back and goes "well the Eels were way better because they won 81-82-83."

 

[Sttew]

Achievement comes along in the form of 3 flags in 5 years. No B2B or three-peat to really bolster that achievement, so just push the quality with achievement (look at how many AAs, Brownlows, best player, wins, %). But it doesn’t match the Brisbane three-peat. Then Hawthorn come along and three-peat, pairing with the previous Geelong-achievement-destroying ‘08 flag. So let’s push the quality angle again, which is going great guns because we keeping making top 4 (quality) but never win anything (achievement).

FMD!!!!!!! Unless you 3peat or go back to back 3 premierships in 5 years is an insignificant achievment? Am I reading you correct? Tell that to 17 other clubs desperate to win a single premiership. This garbage is getting way out of hand

 

[PhatBoy]

FMD!!!!!!! Unless you 3peat or go back to back 3 premierships in 5 years is an insignificant achievment? Am I reading you correct? Tell that to 17 other clubs desperate to win a single premiership. This garbage is getting way out of hand

It's why Grover Cleveland's presidency is so derided. His terms were non-consecutive.

Why Eddie Merckx is regarded as inferior to Miguel Indurain - 5 straight TDF wins beats 5 in 6 years.

Why Rocky Marciarno is regarded as better than Ali - he never tasted defeat.

 

[BF Tiger]

FMD!!!!!!! Unless you 3peat or go back to back 3 premierships in 5 years is an insignificant achievment? Am I reading you correct? Tell that to 17 other clubs desperate to win a single premiership. This garbage is getting way out of hand

No, you’re not reading me correct.

 

[Noel Gallagher]

FMD!!!!!!! Unless you 3peat or go back to back 3 premierships in 5 years is an insignificant achievment? Am I reading you correct? Tell that to 17 other clubs desperate to win a single premiership. This garbage is getting way out of hand

Calm down chief, getting over excited here I think. To spell things out for you, NO-ONE is saying that 3 flags in 5 years is an insignificant achievement - those are your words. What the general consensus is that THREEPEAT > 3 flags in 5 years and that is pretty hard to debate. Only the Hawks and Bris Lions have achieved this since it became a national comp. Some would even argue that back to back is regarded higher than 3 in five years but I won't go there

When Geelong dominated, not only did they fail to achieve the 3peat they also failed to go back to back which will forever haunt them considering they had only lost one game for the year and went into the final as raging hot favourites. These two factors contribute significantly to ranking overall team success when it comes in successful premiership sides. Further adding to to argument is that both Hawthorn and Brisbane played in FOUR GF's in a row, Hawks falling over at the first v Sydney and Brisbane in their last GF against Port Power (and crippled by injuries)

Teams play for premiership success - period. AA's, Brownlows etc are all highly regarded INDIVIDUAL awards which are ancillary bonus's only. Home and away wins are a bit meaningless, it's all about qualifying for finals and winning your way to the big dance.

Taking all the above key points into consideration, if you are going to rank the great AFL teams since 1991 the the top three are (in order)

1. Hawthorn/Brisbane (unable to split)
2. Geelong
3 Richmond - if they win this year the move to a clear second and push Geelong down to third

 

[BF Tiger]

The entire argument of quality trumps achievement is a furphy.

No-one chases Melbourne’s five flags in six years, they all chase Collingwood’s four in a row.

No-one compares Richmond’s four flags from 67-74 as the equal of Collingwood’s four in a row. For that matter no-one compares Richmond’s five from 67-80 to Hawthorn’s five from 83-91.

Carlton’s three in four (79, 81 & 82) are never talked of in the same light as Brisbane or Hawthorn’s three-peats.

You can set a WR in the heats, but if you don’t win the final no-one cares.

 

[PhatBoy]

Calm down chief, getting over excited here I think. To spell things out for you, NO-ONE is saying that 3 flags in 5 years is an insignificant achievement - those are your words. What the general consensus is that THREEPEAT > 3 flags in 5 years and that is pretty hard to debate. Only the Hawks and Bris Lions have achieved this since it became a national comp. Some would even argue that back to back is regarded higher than 3 in five years but I won't go there

When Geelong dominated, not only did they fail to achieve the 3peat they also failed to go back to back which will forever haunt them considering they had only lost one game for the year and went into the final as raging hot favourites. These two factors contribute significantly to ranking overall team success when it comes in successful premiership sides. Further adding to to argument is that both Hawthorn and Brisbane played in FOUR GF's in a row, Hawks falling over at the first v Sydney and Brisbane in their last GF against Port Power (and crippled by injuries)

Teams play for premiership success - period. AA's, Brownlows etc are all highly regarded INDIVIDUAL awards which are ancillary bonus's only. Home and away wins are a bit meaningless, it's all about qualifying for finals and winning your way to the big dance.

Taking all the above key points into consideration, if you are going to rank the great AFL teams since 1991 the the top three are (in order)

1. Hawthorn/Brisbane (unable to split)
2. Geelong
3 Richmond - if they win this year the move to a clear second and push Geelong down to third

What haunts us isn't that we didn't go back to back or win three in a row, its simply the fact that we didn't win in 2008. The rest is utterly irrelevant.

 

[PhatBoy]

The entire argument of quality trumps achievement is a furphy.

No-one chases Melbourne’s five flags in six years, they all chase Collingwood’s four in a row.

No-one compares Richmond’s four flags from 67-74 as the equal of Collingwood’s four in a row. For that matter no-one compares Richmond’s five from 67-80 to Hawthorn’s five from 83-91.

Carlton’s three in four (79, 81 & 82) are never talked of in the same light as Brisbane or Hawthorn’s three-peats.

You can set a WR in the heats, but if you don’t win the final no-one cares.

What? who is chasing these things? Who? Tell me?

Do you think when Thompson sat down to try and motivate the players in 2008 he said "oh well we can match the great Collingwood side here if we win the next 3."

i would count Richmond's four in 67-74 as the equal of anything.

The only team I look at for consecutive wins and think "wow that's simply on another level" is St George. 11 in a row means that for an entire decade no-one trumped them. Not one time did they lose across a generation. But even then if another side came along a few decades later and won 5, lost on, then won 6, i don't think anyone would question their right to be compared to St George.

Does the Hawthorn dynasty of the 1980s get pegged back because two other teams in the 80s won back to back comps? Of course they don't.

Do Adelaide of the 1990s get revered more than the West Coast because their titles were consecutive? I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who thinks that.

 

[Seeds]

Its obvious, Geelong are a good team and they play and win many games at home.

This gives them a good ladder position most years, but when they play finals they are
playing at the G or interstate against teams playing at their home ground so results are reversed.

The 4 MCG based teams are at the G for finals not in Geelong, so most years the Cats will face one or more MCG based teams in the finals who will mostly win because they are home. Or they head interstate and will mostly loose as they are playing at their competitors home ground.

If the Cats get into a GF against an interstate or Docklands team there is no home ground advantage.

The home ground advantage is huge in sport, and in all games soccer, Gridiron, Hockey, and AFL, its a clear advantage..

Until the AFL address this anomily the game is biased in favour of the 4 MCG Residents.

Can you imagine playing all FA cup finals at Anfield, or any other teams homeground, of course not, its at Wembley where its independant.

All Victorian clubs should share Docklands and the MCG on an equal basis.

Gambling shows the best backed teams for the flag most years are MCG based.

Geelong have not been playing at home this year. and in other years they play the least amount of home games out of all teams in the comp. this is one of the stupidest comments said on big footy.

 

[Overhang]

Taking all the above key points into consideration, if you are going to rank the great AFL teams since 1991 the the top three are (in order)

1. Hawthorn/Brisbane (unable to split)
2. Geelong
3 Richmond - if they win this year the move to a clear second and push Geelong down to third

I'll split them for you

1. Brisbane, traveling interstate to beat 2 MCG tenants is a greater achievement than an MCG tenant beating 3 interstate clubs. Nothing against the Hawks there as you can only beat who is in front of you on the day but Brisbane has an edge.
2.Hawthorn
3 Geelong
4 Richmond and agreed if they win this year they go up to 3 and from here will be an outstanding achievement considering they will most likely have to beat both Port and Brisbane in interstate finals to win it.

 

[BF Tiger]

What? who is chasing these things? Who? Tell me?

Do you think when Thompson sat down to try and motivate the players in 2008 he said "oh well we can match the great Collingwood side here if we win the next 3."

i would count Richmond's four in 67-74 as the equal of anything.

The only team I look at for consecutive wins and think "wow that's simply on another level" is St George. 11 in a row means that for an entire decade no-one trumped them. Not one time did they lose across a generation. But even then if another side came along a few decades later and won 5, lost on, then won 6, i don't think anyone would question their right to be compared to St George.

Does the Hawthorn dynasty of the 1980s get pegged back because two other teams in the 80s won back to back comps? Of course they don't.

Do Adelaide of the 1990s get revered more than the West Coast because their titles were consecutive? I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who thinks that.

Don’t be a fool. No-one is chasing four if they’ve only won one. But there were entire narratives around Brisbane in 2004 and Hawthorn in 2016 matching Collingwood 27-30. And if both sides had won a fourth consecutive flag the narratives in 05/17 would have been around beating the Pies.

Hawthorn don’t get pegged back either side they won five including a B2B.

Adelaide’s B2B bests West Coast’s 2 in 3. West Coast may have had more quality but they couldn’t get the job done in 93.

 

[PhatBoy]

Don’t be a fool. No-one is chasing four if they’ve only won one. But there were entire narratives around Brisbane in 2004 and Hawthorn in 2016 matching Collingwood 27-30. And if both sides had won a fourth consecutive flag the narratives in 05/17 would have been around beating the Pies.

Hawthorn don’t get pegged back either side they won five including a B2B.

Adelaide’s B2B bests West Coast’s 2 in 3. West Coast may have had more quality but they couldn’t get the job done in 93.

Even Adelaide fans don't think that.

 

[BF Tiger]

Even Adelaide fans don't think that.

They also rate a three-peat over a 3 in 5.