News Geelong's position in Essendon investigation and ACC report

[AM]

It's there in black and white...

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and...

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Nowhere that I can see does it suggest Hird has been denied natural justice because the ASADA report was interim. I'd be interested to know where you can see that either explicitly or implicitly.

I've read the whole writ CE. We will see should the matter go to trial what the significance of the interim nature of the report is. In the meantime I'm not impressed with your take as you aren't with mine. We'll leave it at that.

 

[manboob]

Huh? He had a huge reputation.

Sorry. I meant since Feb maybe as late as June this year. From when can he claim damage to reputation? I'd say it was done as soon as the internal report was tabled.

 

[dazbroncos]

With regard to the parents coming out a talking, would it be bad to say there might be a Herd mentality...once one goes they all will go?

See what i did there?....

Sorry... moving on....

Go Catters

 

[catempire]

I've read the whole writ CE. We will see should the matter go to trial what the significance of the interim nature of the report is. In the meantime I'm not impressed with your take as you aren't with mine. We'll leave it at that.

This isn't my "take"; it's Hird's document. There is a prima facie natural justice argument to be made, it's just not what you thought it would be. I'm surprised you're not willing to admit that having read the document.

If you can't/won't point to something in the writ that supports your position, I'm only left thinking one thing... It ain't there.

 

[Willo_]

A 3 hour meeting suggests this is going a lot further than a briefing.

Would be pretty heated I'd imagine... Mick had already teed of from his perspective (potentially that's carltons) the dogs President also had said he backs the AFL.... can't imagine the clubs that were allegedly mentioned by Hird as cheating would be overly sympathetic either..

 

[AM]

With regard to the parents coming out a talking, would it be bad to say there might be a Herd mentality...once one goes they all will go?

See what i did there?....

Sorry... moving on....

Go Catters

I liked it daz.

 

[AM]

Would be pretty heated I'd imagine... Mick had already teed of from his perspective (potentially that's carltons) the dogs President also had said he backs the AFL....can't imagine the clubs that were allegedly mentioned by Hird as cheating would be overly sympathetic either..

Peter Gordon could well be a key player in mediating this matter. As I mentioned earlier he has an outstanding record not only as a litigator but a mediator too.

 

[year of the cat]

Am I correct in assuming that both AM and CE are lawyers?

 

[Catdog]

Am I correct in assuming that both AM and CE are lawyers?

Not sure but have enjoyed there input on this subject!

 

[thejester]

I know this isn't a popular position but I'm a little cynical over the player health argument. Fair enough that Mum (Mum) was deeply concerned and as a parent you would be worried/upset/angry that your son, even if legally an adult, is put in a position where he can't realistically object to this program without compromising his future employment prospects. But at the same time, her son - whoever he is - could go out on the weekend and break his leg or get knocked out or suffer a punctured lung and while it would be seen as regrettable it would also be shrugged off as the cost of doing business. As the AFLPA has been demonstrating, a significant minority of players suffer long-term health consequences from their playing days, including the kind of problems spoken about by Greg Williams and Daniel Bell, where concussions have led to long term cognitive (not sure if that's the right terminology) problems like memory loss and depression. I have a hard time believing that the long-term health consequences of this program are going to be anywhere near the long term health consequences of just playing AFL, and I suspect many who are deploying this argument are doing so as a way of grabbing the moral high ground in order to further whack Essendon.

 

[Menzelevium]

I know this isn't a popular position but I'm a little cynical over the player health argument. Fair enough that Mum (Mum) was deeply concerned and as a parent you would be worried/upset/angry that your son, even if legally an adult, is put in a position where he can't realistically object to this program without compromising his future employment prospects. But at the same time, her son - whoever he is - could go out on the weekend and break his leg or get knocked out or suffer a punctured lung and while it would be seen as regrettable it would also be shrugged off as the cost of doing business. As the AFLPA has been demonstrating, a significant minority of players suffer long-term health consequences from their playing days, including the kind of problems spoken about by Greg Williams and Daniel Bell, where concussions have led to long term cognitive (not sure if that's the right terminology) problems like memory loss and depression. I have a hard time believing that the long-term health consequences of this program are going to be anywhere near the long term health consequences of just playing AFL, and I suspect many who are deploying this argument are doing so as a way of grabbing the moral high ground in order to further whack Essendon.

Those that participate in footy are aware of the risks involved though. They can't know what the risks are with relation to the peptides and thus can't make an informed choice. If they don't know what the long-term issues are with these drugs, then informed consent can't have been obtained.

 

[thejester]

Those that participate in footy are aware of the risks involved though. They can't know what the risks are with relation to the peptides and thus can't make an informed choice. If they don't know what the long-term issues are with these drugs, then informed consent can't have been obtained.

Except that both AOD and Thymosin were listed on their consent forms. I don't disagree with your broad point that Essendon should be harshly punished for being in a position where players were potentially injected with unknown substances. Equally I think it has to be acknowledged that while the players are strictly liable, in practice it would have been enormously difficult for them to object to this program - and that should increase the scrutiny of the individuals charged. But still a little jaundiced at some of the crocodile tears in the media.

 

[CF]

No wanting to sound like a Hird apologist, but I think my post still applies.

I think you are a Hird apologist and it's disgusting.

 

[Menzelevium]

Except that both AOD and Thymosin were listed on their consent forms. I don't disagree with your broad point that Essendon should be harshly punished for being in a position where players were potentially injected with unknown substances. Equally I think it has to be acknowledged that while the players are strictly liable, in practice it would have been enormously difficult for them to object to this program - and that should increase the scrutiny of the individuals charged. But still a little jaundiced at some of the crocodile tears in the media.

I thought they were still unaware of possible long-term effects that thysomin could have though, meaning that the players still wouldn't have been properly informed. I could be wrong though because I'm not too keen on keeping up with all of the individual drugs and what they do. I guess I could always get a job down at Essendon then...

 

[manboob]

I know this isn't a popular position but I'm a little cynical over the player health argument...

You're missing the point. It's not about the outcomes whatever they may be. It's the fact it happened. It's the fact that Essendon used players as test subjects.

 

[thejester]

You're missing the point. It's not about the outcomes whatever they may be. It's the fact it happened. It's the fact that Essendon used players as test subjects.

Where was that specified in the charge sheet?

 

[manboob]

Where was that specified in the charge sheet?

90. Hooper states that 34 Essendon players were injected with an Amino Acid compound sourced by Patient A from a Chemist in Mexico. The identity and integrity of the commodity was inferred by Hooper from labelling without independent or professional verification.

91. Save for the above, Hooper does not know the content or source of the amino acids he injected into the players at HyperMed.

101. none of the persons attending the May Meeting: took any appropriate action to investigate the nature of the substances used, to ascertain whether their use had been the subject of compliance with the Protocol and to inform the AFL and the players of the use of unknown substances.

And the kicker...

121. During his employment at the Club, Dank was involved with a “draft human trial protocol” in relation to AOD-9604 which was being conducted by Metabolic Pharmaceuticals Pty Ltd. Robinson, at least, was aware of this issue, having received, on 21 February 2012, a forwarded email from Dank which referred to the “draft human trial protocol”. Having regard to the above matters, and the nature of Metabolic Pharmaceuticals Pty Ltd’s research work, it is likely that the draft human trial protocol involved tests conducted on Essendon players, none of whom had knowledge of such research.

 

[thejester]

Ah missed that. Thanks mate.

 

[thegerman]

I have no real sympathy for Hird. I could almost have accepted his "naivety" if he had shown an ounce of remorse or contrition during this episode. But his ongoing beligerence and lack of empathy for his players, their parents, his club and the fans has turned me. I agree with many others that think he has a narcissistic streak which is resulting in a lot of collateral damage.

I must admit that I am surprised that, if he is being advised by Burnside, that they have chosen this type of action. I can't see how it is anyway conducive to a positive outcome for Hird.

With regard to his penalty I am a believer in giving people a second chance. As abhorrent as these allegations are, Hird hasn't killed anyone. I really think the guy has been exceptionally foolish and blindly trusted someone he shouldn't have (Dank), and now due to his own personality shortcomings, is struggling to accept that he fecked up and that he has failed. I also don't think that Little is doing him any favours with his words and advice - if anything it's just inflaming an already massive fireball.

What if it was a Chinese swim team doing this? Would you have the same opinion? Or just because it is Hird that everyone is going soft on this whole saga.

I do believe that ASADA will have their day and players will be rounded up. I believe they are currently piecing together policy on how they can force recalcitrant (read Dank), people before them to answer questions. In that, we may see players find out that what they took was not illegal or was, I'm guessing the latter. If the reports on Thymosin and 9604 are correct and both ASADA and WADA state they are both illegal, the Dons will not have a team thereafter to use on the park.

There will be no fighting ASADA or its integrity, as the Dons will look more and more like Lance Armstrong and that is a bad tack to take in the public eye.

 

[year of the cat]

What if it was a Chinese swim team doing this? Would you have the same opinion? Or just because it is Hird that everyone is going soft on this whole saga.

I do believe that ASADA will have their day and players will be rounded up. I believe they are currently piecing together policy on how they can force recalcitrant (read Dank), people before them to answer questions. In that, we may see players find out that what they took was illegal or not, I'm guessing the latter. If the reports on Thymosin and 9604 are correct and both ASADA and WADA state they are both illegal, the Dons will not have a team thereafter to use on the park.

There will be no fighting ASADA or its integrity, as the Dons will look more and more like Lance Armstrong and that is a bad tack to take in the public eye.

I don't think I'm going soft at all. The penalties that have been reported to have been offered to EFC by the AFL I think strike the right balance. I don't think they could be assessed as being soft. I think Hird should be suspended from all activity in not just the AFL but in football in general for at least 12 months. Even 2 years I think would be reasonable. Let's face it - the guy won't get another job in any AFL club after this fiasco regardless.

 

[year of the cat]

I think you are a Hird apologist and it's disgusting.

I assume you are being facetious.

 

[thegerman]

I don't think I'm going soft at all. The penalties that have been reported to have been offered to EFC by the AFL I think strike the right balance. I don't think they could be assessed as being soft. I think Hird should be suspended from all activity in not just the AFL but in football in general for at least 12 months. Even 2 years I think would be reasonable. Let's face it - the guy won't get another job in any AFL club after this fiasco regardless.

Yeah I agree on that sentiment. The main point that I'm bemused at, is that Essendon and Hird think this is a game; that it is their reputations at stake. Their play at being the little man in this game was starting to make waves with several journo's now changing their tunes. Though, I think the Mother's call to
Triple M today showed just who the little men are in this and why the Dons should be taken to the utmost in penalties as they failed to take care of those who trusted them.

It's a sad, sad day for AFL fans, more so the parents of those players who are now gagged from speaking out at how their sons where handled. Their careers are at extreme risk and it is their reputations as drug cheats that will hang with them forever. It's ok for Hird and the Pres to go back into retirement with their loads of cash; but what about the little guy in this?

That is what really stinks and why I will never respect James Hird after all of this.

 

[thegerman]

For their sake I hope they have some of that lube all plus stuff still lying around.

Those pineapples!

 

[CatTricks]

This may be a dumb question but:

Given the players have signed the consent forms, if the players are charged and choose to sue the club, do they have any grounds to do so, considering they signed the forms?

 

[flatcat]

I think this is all a sad affair.
I don't want Paul Hamilton to be remembered as the football manager that presided over the worst case illegal substance taking and poor corporate management in the history of the AFL.
I want him to be remembered as the guy that Ablett Senior tore a new one for in the 1989 prelim. final. The whole affair is tarnishing one of my golden memories.