Review Grand Final, 2023 - Collingwood vs. Brisbane Lions

[3KZ is Football]

It’s not that Lester was bad.

It’s more that Collingwood exploited a lot of our players weaknesses.

They put a lot of work in to negating quite a few of our players, and looked to exploit mismatches when ever they could.


Whereas, from 8000km away, it looked like we focused on one matchup, Dunkley on De Goey, and we exploited one mismatch, when Daniher had a much shorter defender on him at one moment of the game.

It just appears that Fagan was out coached on multiple levels.

Absolutely.

 

[KissKiss]

It’s not that Lester was bad.

It’s more that Collingwood exploited a lot of our players weaknesses.

They put a lot of work in to negating quite a few of our players, and looked to exploit mismatches when ever they could.


Whereas, from 8000km away, it looked like we focused on one matchup, Dunkley on De Goey, and we exploited one mismatch, when Daniher had a much shorter defender on him at one moment of the game.

It just appears that Fagan was out coached on multiple levels.

I dont disagree Collingwood were incredibly well drilled and look to have put a lot of planning and learning after the loses to us through the year.

Also Lester wasn't bad, I'm never that upset by the last defender who gets caught out by a mismatch out the back. The error more likely happened up field and then the last guy is often the one desperately trying to switch over to cover a player they shouldn't have had to.

Lester has been a great revival this year and done us all proud. As one who has been advocating for him as a perfect sub candidate for at least 2 to 3 years I'm happy to see him go beyond that. But I also see we do need to be planning for life beyond Lester as a player sooner or later

 

[Nathan Barley]

It’s not that Lester was bad.

It’s more that Collingwood exploited a lot of our players weaknesses.

They put a lot of work in to negating quite a few of our players, and looked to exploit mismatches when ever they could.


Whereas, from 8000km away, it looked like we focused on one matchup, Dunkley on De Goey, and we exploited one mismatch, when Daniher had a much shorter defender on him at one moment of the game.

It just appears that Fagan was out coached on multiple levels.

They just played better. Reading far too much into it

if they were going to negate players they wouldn’t have let Kiddy have 21 first half touches

You just seem to keep coming up with different reasons why Collingwood were better than us

 

[briztoon]

They just played better. Reading far too much into it

if they were going to negate players they wouldn’t have let Kiddy have 21 first half touches

You just seem to keep coming up with different reasons why Collingwood were better than us

What, there can’t be many different reasons why Collingwood were better than us?

There are many posters on here who have provided brief and extensive explanations and analysis of why Collingwood were better than us.

Similarly, there’s been plenty of media articles and discussion about Collingwood beating us.

There are reasons why “they just played better than us”.

As Mighty Lions mentioned in one of his posts, we weren’t ready for their “move forward at all costs” style of play.

 

[Mighty Lions]

They put a lot of work in to negating quite a few of our players, and looked to exploit mismatches when ever they could.


Whereas, from 8000km away, it looked like we focused on one matchup, Dunkley on De Goey, and we exploited one mismatch, when Daniher had a much shorter defender on him at one moment of the game.

It just appears that Fagan was out coached on multiple levels.

For the first time one of your posts gave me a laugh.

 

[Nathan Barley]

What, there can’t be many different reasons why Collingwood were better than us?

There are many posters on here who have provided brief and extensive explanations and analysis of why Collingwood were better than us.

Similarly, there’s been plenty of media articles and discussion about Collingwood beating us.

There are reasons why “they just played better than us”.

As Mighty Lions mentioned in one of his posts, we weren’t ready for their “move forward at all costs” style of play.

We were the other 2 times we played them this year

 

[twhowler]

What perplexed me about Hill was the space we gave him even in the third quarter. At one point collingwood were streaming forward and nobody was within 40m of him. After 4 goals in the first half. I know it's old fashioned for a total lockdown but at least someone should have had a leg-rope on him

There was a point deep in the third where collingwood were on a fast-break and somehow had 2 players in heaps of space. looked a certain goal and would have put us 2 goals down. the kick somehow went straight to starcevich. we looked totally done then but to be fair improved in the last quarter

 

[martinson]

What perplexed me about Hill was the space we gave him even in the third quarter. At one point collingwood were streaming forward and nobody was within 40m of him. After 4 goals in the first half. I know it's old fashioned for a total lockdown but at least someone should have had a leg-rope on him

There was a point deep in the third where collingwood were on a fast-break and somehow had 2 players in heaps of space. looked a certain goal and would have put us 2 goals down. the kick somehow went straight to starcevich. we looked totally done then but to be fair improved in the last quarter

I always thought Wilmot was the obvious matchup for Hill. And everyone could see Hill was on from the start.

 

[AllHart]

Last Friday's Grand Final Parade featuring the Brisbane players:

 

[twhowler]

Let's say a close loss can be up to 15 points.

And let's use examples of teams that have not won a flag in the recent years before such a close loss

And limit to this century

Pies 2002 - 9 point loss. 2003 - Grand final
Eagles 2005 - 4 point loss - 2006 - premiership
Saints 2009 - 12 point loss (6 points when siren sounded) - 2010 grand final (draw then loss)
Hawks 2012 (they did win in 2008 but a lot of new players in this side) - 10 point loss - 2013 premiership
Dockers 2013 - lost by 15 points - 2014 finished 4th, then went out in straight sets
Swans 2016 (they had won four years earlier) - 2017 6th, went out in semi final
Collingwood 2018 - lost by 5 points - 2019 finished 4th, lost prelim by 1 point

So no disasters there.

The worst result swans but plenty of those players had flags

Freo still made top 4

My other POSITIVE - Daniher was broken when he came to the lions. Is now on 69 games for us, could be father son eligible by 2025!

 

[royboys4eva]

Reflecting on the GF. In the first half Coleman and Zorko hit a couple kicks into the corridor and we looked on. It was almost identical to the Richmond game at the MCG last year. Coleman was on fire and every time he got his hands on the ball we looked dangerous. He has such great vision and has the kicking skills to back it up.

Unfortunately like that Richmond game - the corridor movement stopped in second half in the GF and Coleman struggles to have the same influence. We still had some nice ball movement but it was more out wide. Collingwood kept going through the middle and seemed better at getting that extra number thought the middle. They picked off some dangerous kicks and some they executed and some the didn't. But, they were prepared to continue taking the corridor. I feel sometimes we go back into a defensive mode and too much down the line.

I hope in the off season we work on kick in's a bit more. When we take a bit more risk with our kick in's and ball movement we look so dangerous. We have to learn if we make an error not to go into a our shell.

With Kiddy - McKenna - Wilmot we have the talent and kicking ability to take teams on.

 

[Cyclops]

May I post in your forum?

Great season from the Lions, arguably the best side and definitely the most skilled.

A few points occur:

VicBias: is real and its in the scheduling. Be nice if you got a home grand final, or a neutral one, or if you got to play on the GF venue more than 3 times in a season. VicBias to me isn't cheating umps (though they favour the home side, and guess where it was played?), its the fact more than half the clubs are in one state (so Vics get more political clout) and in other states politicians get to buy home games for their clubs: SA bought a home round, Vic clubs have locked in home grand finals and its wrong. We won't talk about Sydney or GWS because I have opinions that border defamation.

Forwards. Your beautifully drilled small forwards cut us to pieces. From very few chances they kicked a defensible score. Joey D made Moore look silly, no one does that. Both looked to be limping so no excuses, it was a hell of a game. Close to Norm. Win Fagan.

Rucks. Big O got (mostly fairly) biffed and blocked so it was loose ball at the bounces. Win McRae.

Mids. Four of our mids (Daics Pendles Crisp and Mitchell-I think there's 40 games of finals experience in there) played their best game of the year, and De Goey couldn't be held all day and they all scored goals except Mitchell. Win McRae

Defence. Our defence made almost no mistakes, and got hammered, 10 or 11 goals conceded. Your defence held our forwards to 5 goals, four of those coming from silver service delivery to Hill when our mids were on top. Win Fagan.

Fitness. We scored 9 of our goals in time-on, and ran over you in the last despite going a man down in the first. Win our fitness bloke.

The only area where we destroyed you was fitness. Your defence coped with our forward line rotation which has some of the weirdest blokes to match up on (Elliot the 178cm CHF, Mihocek the 191 cm goal sneak, Frampton nailed to the goal line and glued to Harris-Andrews' waist) and one or two of them was going to get loose (Hill 4.2 and McCreery 0.3 in the event).

I think both coaches had strengths shown on the day: we haven't played "bash it forward" for weeks, we spread scientifically vs Giants and Dees, in fact vs Giants we almost played Melbourne style. Fagan had a plan for that, not perfect but he correctly identified De Goey as the game breaker and put your best stopper on him. He got his goals and his significant touches within 4 minutes of the siren.

The future: I hope we can keep this level of footy up, and if we do we will meet again. I don't see a lot of decline for you and plenty of improvement, been a fan of Ashcroft since his juniors (OK I was a sportsman's lunch at Docklands and he happened to be playing, amazing kid) and Fletcher too, FMD.

I always thought Daicos would get a flag, some players have that aura. Lachie Neale

9

Lachie Neale

Age

31

Ht

178cm

Wt

84kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

27.0

5star

K

11.5

4star

HB

15.5

5star

M

4.0

4star

T

3.7

5star

CL

5.9

5star

D

28.3

5star

K

13.9

5star

HB

14.4

5star

M

4.6

4star

T

4.0

5star

CL

5.9

5star

D

12.0

3star

K

4.6

2star

HB

7.4

5star

M

2.0

3star

T

1.0

3star

CL

0.4

3star

is one I have a strong conviction will raise a cup.

If and when you do win it all, it will count for more than almost anyone elses. Its harder to win from outside Victoria, and Brisbane has very little political clout (unlike Eagles and Crows): that adds up to you flags being worth more than ours.

Hope that changes, its supposed to be AFL not VFL plus.

 

[SpecialBruce]

Let's say a close loss can be up to 15 points.

And let's use examples of teams that have not won a flag in the recent years before such a close loss

And limit to this century

Pies 2002 - 9 point loss. 2003 - Grand final
Eagles 2005 - 4 point loss - 2006 - premiership
Saints 2009 - 12 point loss (6 points when siren sounded) - 2010 grand final (draw then loss)
Hawks 2012 (they did win in 2008 but a lot of new players in this side) - 10 point loss - 2013 premiership
Dockers 2013 - lost by 15 points - 2014 finished 4th, then went out in straight sets
Swans 2016 (they had won four years earlier) - 2017 6th, went out in semi final
Collingwood 2018 - lost by 5 points - 2019 finished 4th, lost prelim by 1 point

So no disasters there.

The worst result swans but plenty of those players had flags

Freo still made top 4

My other POSITIVE - Daniher was broken when he came to the lions. Is now on 69 games for us, could be father son eligible by 2025!

100% on Daniher. He is a massive positive. I liked that we got him. I liked him in his first year. He frustrated the hell out of me and I then didn't like him. I then liked him again this year and even more now.

Hopefully he has at least 5 more years left minimum.

 

[Viceregal]

.Good luck in 2024. Your team play the game the way it should be played.

D d d d did you just imply we were
... ... ... Geelong? gasps

 

[CarterS]

Have any umpires reps or anyone from AFL said anything about the advantage call?

 

[ucantbseri]

Two things, both directly related.

One- we have had an obvious deficiency at HB for years now. Yesterday it came back to bite us, big time. Whoever placed Starc on Hills and LEFT HIM THERE, effectively lost us the game.

Two- the 50m in the last sealed the deal and unfortunately will stay with the offender the rest of his career. It's not acceptable to attempt an impact on the game, when you have had very little, by a bit of fake tough crap.

Sent from my SM-N920I using Tapatalk

Yes the 50m last qtr frees were unforgivable, but in the end they took their chances, Degoey and Sidebottom goals, to win the GF and we couldn’t take ours, Joe from 30m and Hipwood from 50+. So much for blaming an umpiring decision between the arc’s, we had our chances to WIN but failed in a painfully familiar way.
On a positive note it was a great contest, one for the ages. It didn’t look like a typical lions game, they had it on their terms, we needed to be braver at times and more composed at others, red time perhaps.

 

[twhowler]

100% on Daniher. He is a massive positive. I liked that we got him. I liked him in his first year. He frustrated the hell out of me and I then didn't like him. I then liked him again this year and even more now.

Hopefully he has at least 5 more years left minimum.

He was awesome early in his second year (2022). Was clearly not the same player with the shoulder and in hindsight a mistake to keep him out there.

2021 - first full season back for a long time, solid without being spectacular, poor in the finals

2022 - started the year on fire (19 goals in first 6 games), struggled to have as much influence but battled on okay. Good first final, poor second one

2023 - slowish start, great year overall and in AA squad, brilliant first final, solid second one, one of our best few players in the GF despite a poor miss. 10 goals in 3 finals

If you excuse his output from his shoulder injury he played through he has got better every year. He's genuinely one of the better key forwards in the comp right now. Who is ahead of him? Curnow, Larkey, Walker (33yo), Cameron, Allan. Anyone else? Hawkins i would have said yes to before but not anymore. Naughton has stalled. Hogan has been improving.

I wonder what sort of 'age' his body is. He is 30 in March. He had a chronic groin problem that limited him to 15 games over 3 years. But he wasn't playing through injury - that's where players tend to limit their career - think about how beaten-up Jono Brown looked by 30yo (2011).

Daniher has played 177 games and looks to be moving really well. Encouragingly his shuolder doesn't seem affected from 2022. I think he looks like he has a good 3 seasons left at this prime.

But i hope we re-think his ruck role over the pre season. He is one our best assets and we have no replacement for him. He seems to me to have matured as a player so i don't think he needs his ruck time to get him in to the game. He has moved on from the Joe that was struggling so just started to try to take unrealistic speccies and give away free kicks. He can take ruck contests in the forward line.

Think about it this way - which other side risks their best key forward in the ruck?

 

[CarterS]

Just watching the replay - first quarter.

Hipwood really nice goal assist to Lincoln. He wasn't that bad.

I thought we did really well to fight back into the game after being a bit off the pace in the first 10 minutes.

Backline did well and Lester beat Elliot in a really good one on one.

Said a million times but Coleman through the corridor is a game changer. His intercept marking was elite too.

Bailey's goal = GOTY.
Not a single commentator brings up the smother is controversial or should have been a free kick the other way at all.

Accidental high contact against Murphy killed our chance for another goal, went straight up the other end and they generally slowed it down for the rest of the quarter.

Judging by Dunkleys brownlow votes and position in the B&F he is just so underrated for us.

Every time we wanted to switch they were ready.

mihocek able to kick that goal because one of our defenders (hard to see on TV, gardiner?) got wrestled off it way too easily.

Goal on the siren an absolute killer.

mccreery and cox missed gettable goals so probably evens out, quarter time margin about fair.

 

[Macca180]

Okay final edition of my ripped- off segment that nobody cares about except me.

THE GOOD

WE HUNG IN THERE - didn't always play well but even when pies had momentum and incredible crowd noise we kept coming back. we had a long period of being on top in the last quarter after looking out to it early.

WE WERE SKILLED UNDER PRESSURE - some of those goals were just phenomenal. Bailey. Linc. Clugga's pass to Daniher at the end and evasiveness before. Cameron's 45m left foot snap.

REPUTATIONS WERE ENHANCED - Clugga was excellent after a poor first quarter. Daniher apart from one bad miss was very good, competed hard, great presence of mind to bang that one in at the end. Coleman until he was gassed. Harris' last quarter was phenomenal. I thought Neale was really good late as well - our two skippers lifting to give us a chance to win.

LOSING A CLOSE ONE - so many examples of getting smacked in a granny and the damage it does. this will hurt but it keeps us confident that we are good enough, which i think is important for this group

THE BAD

OUTRUN - so much for 29 degrees helping us - i just think collingwood ran harder when it mattered. Chopping off options to swtich, and always being within a metre for players on a lead. We so often give a player that crucial 2-3m. Allowing it to happen when they played 2 rucks as well. A big part was...

THE WINGS - thoroughly outplayed here. It wasn't that either of their wings destroyed us but we got very little from ours while Sidebottom and J Daicos both played key roles for them. Fletcher better for the run, no pre-season. Berry... more to say later

SOME OF THE BIG MOMENTS - this has been a theme according to players. Some of the worst one - misses in the last quarter from Daniher / Hipwood / Coleman. We were well on top at this stage. The Berry 50m. The Cameron downfield (gave them breathing space when we were hemming them in). Berry taking too long to kick deep in to forward line and getting half caught. About 10 moments in that centre clearance after Cameron's last goal. Both sides had moments all day but so many critical moments we fluffed in the last quarter, it was too much too overcome

COMMENTARY ON HOW GOOD THE PIES ARE IN CLOSE GAMES INCLUDING GF Sure they shut down the game well against GWS. Very well. Against us when they tried to shut down with 4 minutes to go, we managed multiple entries, a goal to daniher, and then 2 more entries in the last 90 seconds, one of which should have been a free kick from a legging 55m out. We created good opportunities. The pies could not shut us down.

THE UGLY

SOME OF THE UMPIRING clugga got a very dodgy 50m which helped us stay in touch. Mistakes happen. But that advantage call was rubbish and totally against the earlier time we were not allowed to take advantage. And the too high frees to daicos were a daicos. blatant ducking and arm flicking which was supposed to be targeted. Mistakes happen from all but those were just blatant errors the umpires should not have made

RED TIME this is ugly not bad because it was such a similar situation to the Mebourne game - blindly kicking it long to collingwood ruckmen. The last few minutes of the first quarter was just so bad. We looked bereft of ideas. Nobody taking responsibility to short-pass and hang on to the ball.

OUR USE OF THE SUB pies were down a sub already. How could we not do something earlier given how hot it was? Okay Lyons is not a runner. But get him in the guts, he was fresh on such a hot day. We continue to be the most conservative and worst user of the sub in the league. Once the pies had gone tall i would have had Fort as sub. Could have made such a difference in the last quarter - give him some centre bounces, stretch the pies by popping oscar in the goal square.

INABILITY TO EVER CHANGE THINGS UP again such a bugbear. Berry was doing nothing at half time. So give him a tagging job on one of the wingers and at least get a draw there. Rayner couldn't get in the game - isolate him at full forward for 10 minutes. Bailey had been brilliant in the first 35 mins then gone quiet, so what could we do with him? McKenna very quiet could he get a go on the wing? Shift ah chee back who is quiet in the forward line / wing? We just don't throw around the magnets. We never try to wrongfoot the opposition.

WHERE TO FROM HERE

Get Ashcroft back - that will help.

Doedee - i think he could be perfect, good disposal and intercept mark. Payne and Andrews the true tall timber.

Get a good early fixture - given they are both coming off knees!

Get McQualter - or someone of that ilk. Not throwing the baby out with the bathwater but we need to get better in our match-day coaching. My maxim on assistant coaches is: if no opposition side would ever consider one of your assistants as a senior coach, you need a senior 2IC.

Maximise our assets - Rayner get fitter. Bailey figure out how to get him involved more. Coleman get fitter. If these 3 players are involved in any given play it's highly likely to result in a score. It just doesn't happen enough.

Get fitter as a side - we need to inject that relentless running in to our running players. Sharp could be a real weapon too. I think he showed good signs.

GLASS IS HALF FULL

Way better to have made it than another year of no GF.

Pies have a lot of 30+ veterans who were key to winning. They should not scare us too much.

Giants and blues could be dangerous - it's also hard for them now with a top 6 draw and having to start all over again

Dees still don't really have a forward line

Some sides will improve and top 2 won't be easy.

But our finals record over the past 2 years is now 4-2. Won one at the mcg and lost another there by 4 points. We have built belief. Need some luck, especially on the injury front which has been kind to us lately.

Biggest looming issue is no gabba. But a jammed full brighton homes arena might be pretty hard to win at for opposition too

great review.

to be fair Hipwoods too high free was a load of shit also. He just sprayed the shot on goal.

 

[Happy_Neale]

Whats with this Collingwood nuffie going through and reacting to old posts

 

[Nunez]

Whats with this Collingwood nuffie going through and reacting to old posts

Ocram69 is a closet Lions fan.

 

[CarterS]

Whats with this Collingwood nuffie going through and reacting to old posts

Very passive aggressive.

 

[BuntonRules]

Whats with this Collingwood nuffie going through and reacting to old posts

Off season boredom hits some quicker than others.

 

[Harris Specter]

Whats with this Collingwood nuffie going through and reacting to old posts

Haha team wins a premiership and this is what they resort to and find enjoyment out of.
How much of a sad life must he/she lead?

 

[Happy_Neale]

Off season boredom hits some quicker than others.

Four days to get sick of a flag…must be seriously bored