Play Nice Hawthorn culture and Fagan

[dlanod]

This is going to be a very touchy subject.

There will be a very broad range of opinions about the correct way to handle this.

I'll remind everyone to post respectfully at this time - sniping at each other is not going to help.

Any continued pointless back and forth will get a day or more to cool off. If you want to avoid this fate, let it go.

 

[CarterS]

Doesn't seem fair to me that the full report is not going to be released, Clarkson and Fagan weren't interviewed about it, and the worst parts of it have been cherry picked and reported on prime time TV all day.

 

[Saucery]

Not saying that it's immune to defamation action, just that anti-defamation lawyers will have been through it with a fine tooth comb already; they won't have published anything they thought might get picked up as defamation. The ABC's lawyers are better than most, despite what Channel 7, News Corp and Christian Porter would have you believe

So true, the ABC has so many enemies amongst the neoliberal press lords they have to.

 

[BrainOfMorbius]

Yeah nah. Let’s suspend judgement, be respectful of Chris Fagan and wait to see what the findings of the AFL’s inquiry are.
I don’t quite know what more the club and by extension, club members like myself and others can do.

Chris Fagan deserves to be given space and not have his character or culpability in these matters speculated on. At the same time, his employer, the Brisbane Lions, should maintain close contact and ensure that he has access to counselling and other support services.

In football parlance “getting around him” implies a level of unconditional support that is not appropriate under the circumstances. Dispassionate, objective, nonjudgmental and respectful - that’s what we should be aiming for. Sadly, the media think they can smell blood in the water, so I’m not expecting any of that from them.

This is the correct approach IMO.

 

[CarterS]

Clarkson has responded

‘Shocked’ Clarkson rejects claims in Hawks report but will delay start to North coaching role

‘Shocked’ Clarkson rejects claims in Hawks report, will delay start of North coach job

www.foxsports.com.au

 

[morsie]

So true, the ABC has so many enemies amongst the neoliberal press lords they have to.

Their lawyers are nothing special whenever it's gets tough they engage external lawyers.

 

[Saucery]

I find it concerning that neither Clarkson or Fagan were interviewed as part of the Hawthorn external review

Maybe because it wasn't a past coaching review but to learn more about Indigenous players' experiences at the club?

 

[wantok]

Don't be surprised if not all of the information the ABC has has been reported. They have, in the past, held onto other damning allegations, waited for accused people to respond to the initial story and give themselves enough rope, then publish subsequent stories to completely stitch it up. Highly professional investigative journalism at the ABC. Wouldn't surprise me if there are more revelations yet. AFL House will be scrambling to find out what else they've got and on whom they've got it.

Sad for your club today, but those involved deserve what's coming to them.

I think you should review your claim on the ABC. In the past year alone they have been forced to pay 600k of our money to a Sydney Chinese businessman, 500k to a Qld Investor, settled out of court with Christian Porter and paid the personal defamation costs of Reporter Louise Milligan (said to be 100k plus) to Andrew Laming MP. Hardly professional.

Sent from my SM-A525F using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Saucery]

I think you should review your claim on the ABC. In the past year alone they have been forced to pay 600k of our money to a Sydney Chinese businessman, 500k to a Qld Investor, settled out of court with Christian Porter and paid the personal defamation costs of Reporter Louise Milligan (said to be 100k plus) to Andrew Laming MP. Hardly professional.

Sent from my SM-A525F using BigFooty.com mobile app

Going to court is tantamount to gambling, often depends on which judge you score. Just look at how Trump rolls.

 

[MacMum]

I find it concerning that neither Clarkson or Fagan were interviewed as part of the Hawthorn external review

...or that Shaun Burgoyne (particularly) and Sam Mitchell didn't know anything at the time. (t.v news)

Would love to know what our own Indigenous boys are thinking right now.

What a mess

 

[Saucery]

Oh and by the way, you sleeper trolls who haven't posted in years but suddenly pop up, please use the nearest exit and get on with your sad lives.

 

[Brett C]

Don't be surprised if not all of the information the ABC has has been reported. They have, in the past, held onto other damning allegations, waited for accused people to respond to the initial story and give themselves enough rope, then publish subsequent stories to completely stitch it up. Highly professional investigative journalism at the ABC. Wouldn't surprise me if there are more revelations yet. AFL House will be scrambling to find out what else they've got and on whom they've got it.

Sad for your club today, but those involved deserve what's coming to them.

I’d be very careful using the term “highly professional” when it comes to the ABC. They’re as bad as most news organisations especially when it comes to the pet areas like climate change/racism etc

 

[nup]

Maybe because it wasn't a past coaching review but to learn more about Indigenous players' experiences at the club?

Here is an extract from the Collingwood Do Better Report, which the ABC article mentions it is believed the Hawthorn review had similar scope:

"The methodology used to assess these claims was a mix of desktop research (including both review of the Collingwood Football Club’s documentation and policies) and a series of structured interviews. We undertook thirty interviews with people across the Club — including the Club’s executive staff, Board members, First Nations members of Collingwood’s Reconciliation Action Group, former players, coaching staff and people who work in AFL external to Collingwood. We undertook these interviews in a confidential manner to ensure that people felt comfortable speaking frankly and sharing their stories. The information that was shared with us allowed us to assess what was on the public record and what was contained or missing in Club policies and processes. This allowed for the honest conversations that have formed the feedback in this report. This in turn allowed us to form the recommendations contained in this review. We are grateful to all of those who shared their insights. This has allowed us to feel confident about the recommendations we are making."

I believe it is appropriate to be concerned that neither Clarkson nor Fagan were interviewed as part of their review process.

 

[Bucking Beads]

You would think young Indigenous players at Hawthorn would have confided in a guy like Shaun Burgoyne

9

Shaun Burgoyne

Age

41

Ht

186cm

Wt

89kg

Pos.

D/F

Career

Season

Last 5

D

18.0

4star

K

9.9

4star

HB

8.1

5star

M

3.5

4star

T

3.8

5star

MG

162.7

3star

D

10.0

3star

K

5.6

2star

HB

4.4

3star

M

1.7

2star

T

2.6

4star

MG

162.7

3star

D

6.2

2star

K

3.2

2star

HB

3.0

3star

M

1.2

2star

T

1.6

4star

? If he knows nothing of it that makes me confused.

 

[Saucery]

Here is an extract from the Collingwood Do Better Report, which the ABC article mentions it is believed the Hawthorn review had similar scope:

"The methodology used to assess these claims was a mix of desktop research (including both review of the Collingwood Football Club’s documentation and policies) and a series of structured interviews. We undertook thirty interviews with people across the Club — including the Club’s executive staff, Board members, First Nations members of Collingwood’s Reconciliation Action Group, former players, coaching staff and people who work in AFL external to Collingwood. We undertook these interviews in a confidential manner to ensure that people felt comfortable speaking frankly and sharing their stories. The information that was shared with us allowed us to assess what was on the public record and what was contained or missing in Club policies and processes. This allowed for the honest conversations that have formed the feedback in this report. This in turn allowed us to form the recommendations contained in this review. We are grateful to all of those who shared their insights. This has allowed us to feel confident about the recommendations we are making."

I believe it is appropriate to be concerned that neither Clarkson nor Fagan were interviewed as part of their review process.

Hmm OK you are entitled to your beliefs, but the fact is that scope has not been enunciated as of yet, as far as I am aware.

 

[BuntonRules]

Going to court is tantamount to gambling, often depends on which judge you score. Just look at how Trump rolls.

Different systems. American judges are political appointments.

 

[Bucking Beads]

Clarkson has released a statement and refuted the claims.

 

[nup]

Hmm OK you are entitled to your beliefs, but the fact is that scope has not been enunciated as of yet, as far as I am aware.

I have no belief, I am being objective, and I only stated my concern with that specific aspect of this matter. That is a contribution to the discussion I felt was valid

 

[ghostdog]

I think you should review your claim on the ABC. In the past year alone they have been forced to pay 600k of our money to a Sydney Chinese businessman, 500k to a Qld Investor, settled out of court with Christian Porter and paid the personal defamation costs of Reporter Louise Milligan (said to be 100k plus) to Andrew Laming MP. Hardly professional.

Sent from my SM-A525F using BigFooty.com mobile app

On balance the definitely are. They also call out their own when ethical lines are blurred or journalistic integrity is in question, holding themselves to far higher standards of accountability. They don't always get it right, but their practice is usually of the highest quality. Fire engine chasers they are not.

 

[Brett C]

Not saying that it's immune to defamation action, just that anti-defamation lawyers will have been through it with a fine tooth comb already; they won't have published anything they thought might get picked up as defamation. The ABC's lawyers are better than most, despite what Channel 7, News Corp and Christian Porter would have you believe

Andrew Laming and many others say hello.

They’ve proven time and again they not the gold standard in journalism.

 

[ghostdog]

I’d be very careful using the term “highly professional” when it comes to the ABC. They’re as bad as most news organisations especially when it comes to the pet areas like climate change/racism etc

I'm not sure what you mean about 'pet areas.'

Anyway, that's not at issue. I hope your club and supporters don't fare too badly from this. Brisbane has always been my second team. Good luck with it.

 

[Saucery]

Different systems. American judges are political appointments.

Different system, same flaws. Human error, personal interpretive biases and just plain bad days. It's why we have so many appeals courts.

 

[Tom14]

I think you should review your claim on the ABC. In the past year alone they have been forced to pay 600k of our money to a Sydney Chinese businessman, 500k to a Qld Investor, settled out of court with Christian Porter and paid the personal defamation costs of Reporter Louise Milligan (said to be 100k plus) to Andrew Laming MP. Hardly professional.

Sent from my SM-A525F using BigFooty.com mobile app

The settlement for Christian Porter of course being that each side paid their own legal costs and the matter went away. Christian then had to pay the costs of another party involved in that case.

But generally, Australia is about the most friendly jurisdiction for defamation suits in the world against broadcasters, so I put no stock in a defamation trial as a vehicle for determining truth.

 

[Quested]

I want to preface by saying I am not taking a side on this matter, because the full story isn't out there. But to the people saying no way Fagan did this, or surely they would have confided in Burgoyn etc. May not have spent much time around victims of domestic violence or looked at profiles of criminals etc. (again not drawing any comparison). How we think people may or should act under duress doesn't make it false.
Similarly how people behave in a press conference, an open training session etc. Doesn't make them a great or bad person etc. - we honestly don't know more than we are allowed to see - and that extends to his ability to stand up against his superiors etc.

Again, I'm not taking a stance on guilt or innocence, just a reminder that things can often be different to how they appear (and that goes both ways)

 

[Gadzorks]

Unless completely exonerated Fagan has no way back I fear, and even legal action seems unlikely to achieve that.

As for Clarkson I always thought that bloke was a total sh1t stain and that's what worries me, I believe he did say those things and Fagan was aware.

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke (1729-97).

I still love my ex-wife, but I left her with good reason.

It feels a bit like that's where I am with Fagan now.

Hodge recently made comments to the effect that Clarkson, when moving back into a coaching position, will need a strong team around him that put limits on him.

At the time I thought it was a very odd thing to say, and not entirely complimentary.

 

[Saucery]

Interesting, I wasn't aware of that.